Hilary Mantel Short Story Accused of 'Bad Taste'

Jamesaritchie said:

I guess I'm not the average person, and neither are my friends or family. At least not in the way this deranged writer went about it.

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Lillith1991 said:

Anyway...has it escaped the notice of the half-wits freaking out about this that the woman is dead?

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Mod request:

Let's cut out the name-calling please. Neither of these statements would have been weaker without the epithets.

Thank you.

Buffysquirrel said:

Both involve conceptualising the idea of killing her; neither involves any intent to kill. I think you are seeing difference where there is none and creating what's merely a semantic argument.

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No, it's a logical argument. Neither "What if" nor "I wish" would be any basis for actually charging anyone with anything more than malign sentiment (in the latter case), but to the degree that one cares to understand how other people's minds work and what their motivations are, it's a significant distinction.

Amadan said:

No, it's a logical argument. Neither "What if" nor "I wish" would be any basis for actually charging anyone with anything more than malign sentiment (in the latter case), but to the degree that one cares to understand how other people's minds work and what their motivations are, it's a significant distinction.

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Or maybe your understanding of how people's minds work isn't the same as mine, because I do not see the distinction, nor do I find any logic in simply restating the same thing using different words. In both cases the concept is formulated; in both cases there's no intention to carry it out.

Buffysquirrel said:

Or maybe your understanding of how people's minds work isn't the same as mine, because I do not see the distinction, nor do I find any logic in simply restating the same thing using different words. In both cases the concept is formulated; in both cases there's no intention to carry it out.

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If one does not understand the distinction between desiring something and not desiring it, I don't know what else to say.

I have to agree with Amadan on this one. "What if" is speculating, and may or may not be explored based on personal feelings toward the person. "I wish", while not a necessarily a declaration of intent or even seriousness, is certainly an expression of personal feelings, of 'want'. One is objective, the other is not.

Buffysquirrel said:

Or maybe your understanding of how people's minds work isn't the same as mine, because I do not see the distinction, nor do I find any logic in simply restating the same thing using different words. In both cases the concept is formulated; in both cases there's no intention to carry it out.

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I, too, am finding it just odd that you don't comprehend this difference. Amadan's re-wording was an attempt to help you see the difference, which is a perfectly logical response in a discussion where two people aren't understanding one another well.

And no one is even considering the fact that Meryl Streep played Thatcher. What if Mantel is secretly considering killing MERYL STREEP???

Because slippery slope.

I seem to remember this level of outrage, if not more so since the subject was still alive, from US politicians when somebody released a movie that detailed a supposed assassination of George W. Bush during his presidency.

BenPanced said:

I seem to remember this level of outrage, if not more so since the subject was still alive, from US politicians when somebody released a movie that detailed a supposed assassination of George W. Bush during his presidency.

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See, that makes complete sense to me. They guy is still alive and was leader of the nation at the time, they have to consider such things as a possible threat against the nation's leader. And to be honest when the person is still alive and in office such things really are tasteless, whether a harmless movie or a published short story.

The thing that gets me about the outrage in this case, is that though you could say the timing is tasteless considering she hasn't been dead even two years. She is still neither living or in office. That to me means that the story existing isn't tasteless like so many on the opposite side claim, just when it was released. And I honestly don't understand why people can't separate the two things. Screaming it's tasteless just because it exists doesn't make sense, at least to me. Saying Mantel should respect that her family is likely still grieving the loss is one thing, saying she should never have written the story is another.

BenPanced said:

I seem to remember this level of outrage, if not more so since the subject was still alive, from US politicians when somebody released a movie that detailed a supposed assassination of George W. Bush during his presidency.

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well, in fairness, that was while he was a sitting president.

even were thatcher still alive, she would be more than 2 decades removed from political office.

William Haskins said:

well, in fairness, that was while he was a sitting president.

even were thatcher still alive, she would be more than 2 decades removed from political office.

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There are a couple of precedents in the SF world regarding Ronald Reagan:

J.G. Ballard's "Why I Want to Fuck Ronald Reagan", written when Reagan was Governor of California, part of The Atrocity Exhibition and which caused the US print run to be pulped when one of the publishing executives noticed what was in the book they were about to publish.

Michael Blumlein's short story "Tissue Ablation and Variant Regeneration", his debut publication, which was published in the UK in Interzone as no market in the US (Blumlein's home country) would publish it.