Hilary Mantel Short Story Accused of 'Bad Taste'

Wilde_at_heart · Sep 22, 2014

William Haskins said:
as is so often the case, this is less about bad taste and more about unrefined palates.

In this instance? Absolutely

Also, she's already dead ...

Jamesaritchie · Sep 22, 2014

Alexandra Little said:
Anyone who thinks that fantasizing about killing a politician is "deranged" behavior has clearly never had much interaction with the average person.

I guess I'm not the average person, and neither are my friends or family. At least not in the way this deranged writer went about it.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 22, 2014

She has every right to write such a story, but those who read it have every right to respond as they have. This is the nature of writing.

I do find her somewhat sick, but probably just more of a fool than anything else. This is not a story I would write, but it's not something I would believe or think or fantasize about, either, so maybe that's the difference.

Anyway, freedom of speech and freedom of expression do not change morality, or and being a writer is no more a license to commit wrong than anyone else has. Being a writer is not special, and comes with no "get out of responsibility free" cards.

I fully support her right to think as she wishes, and to write whatever she wishes. I also support the right of anyone who reads it to think she's a depraved idiot.

I do find the police aspect troubling, but we've had people right here get into serious trouble for writing a story about classroom shootings, and other such things. I suspect a story posted on a blog that's about assassinating Obama might get someone in serious trouble, even though it's fiction.

This is highly troublesome, but personal opinions about us because of what we write are normal, and there's nothing at all wrong with it.

Phaeal · Sep 22, 2014

What would be tasteless would be to write about a necromancer resurrecting Thatcher so they could assassinate her, rinse, repeat. Maybe a necromancer who runs a whole business of resurrecting hated figures so they can be assassinated.

That would be really tasteless.

Yup.

'Scuse me, gotta visit the plot bunny hutch.

Buffysquirrel · Sep 22, 2014

Mantel is neither sick, deranged nor a fool. She wrote a story that some people don't like. That's all.

Also, RYFW.

Amadan · Sep 22, 2014

Jamesaritchie said:
She has every right to write such a story, but those who read it have every right to respond as they have. This is the nature of writing.

I do find her somewhat sick, but probably just more of a fool than anything else. This is not a story I would write, but it's not something I would believe or think or fantasize about, either, so maybe that's the difference.

Anyway, freedom of speech and freedom of expression do not change morality, or and being a writer is no more a license to commit wrong than anyone else has. Being a writer is not special, and comes with no "get out of responsibility free" cards.

I fully support her right to think as she wishes, and to write whatever she wishes. I also support the right of anyone who reads it to think she's a depraved idiot.

I do find the police aspect troubling, but we've had people right here get into serious trouble for writing a story about classroom shootings, and other such things. I suspect a story posted on a blog that's about assassinating Obama might get someone in serious trouble, even though it's fiction.

This is highly troublesome, but personal opinions about us because of what we write are normal, and there's nothing at all wrong with it.

I am not surprised that politicians looking for reasons to be outraged might equate "A piece of fiction about assassinating Margaret Thatcher" with "Fantasizing about assassinating Margaret Thatcher," but it does surprise me that a writer would.

One shudders to think how depraved, sick, and immoral Vladimor Nabokov, George R. R. Martin, Suzanne Collins, and Stephen King must be.

There's also a bit of a difference between speculations about assassinating a sitting President and speculations about assassinating a deceased person. Not that I think the former should be off-limits, but it's understandable that the police might be slightly more concerned about hypothetical threats to someone who's actually alive.

Myrealana · Sep 22, 2014

Bad taste? Maybe.
Deraged? No
Dangerous? Certainly not.
Criminal? Clearly not.

ghost · Sep 22, 2014

So let me get this straight.
North Korea threatens war and pleads with the UN to stop the release of the Interview because it's about assassinating Kim Jong Un.

No one takes it seriously and thousands mock North Korea. It becomes the hilarious running joke of the week.

http://www.tmz.com/2014/07/11/seth-...-jong-un-complaint-stop-movie-united-nations/

An author writes about *thinking* of assassinating a dead woman and there is suddenly a shit storm?

Leadership aside, this is rather hypocritical.

Buffysquirrel · Sep 22, 2014

Amadan said:
I am not surprised that politicians looking for reasons to be outraged might equate "A piece of fiction about assassinating Margaret Thatcher" with "Fantasizing about assassinating Margaret Thatcher," but it does surprise me that a writer would.

To be fair, Mantel did indicate that seeing Thatcher unguarded was the inspiration for the story.

Amadan · Sep 22, 2014

Buffysquirrel said:
To be fair, Mantel did indicate that seeing Thatcher unguarded was the inspiration for the story.

Sure, but that doesn't mean she was fantasizing about actually doing it.

Kylabelle · Sep 22, 2014

She would have had to fantasize about time-traveling in order to kill someone already dead.

Seriously problematic. Clearly the woman has too much imagination. Dangerous stuff, imagination.

Buffysquirrel · Sep 22, 2014

Amadan said:
Sure, but that doesn't mean she was fantasizing about actually doing it.

Well, no, you're either fantasising about it or planning to do it. If you intend to do it, it's no longer a fantasy.

jjdebenedictis · Sep 22, 2014

Buffysquirrel said:
Well, no, you're either fantasising about it or planning to do it. If you intend to do it, it's no longer a fantasy.

Gotta disagree, although it's maybe hair-splitting.

I define fantasizing as thinking about something because it brings me pleasure. Therefore, when my imagination says, "OMG, that window opens too far; a person might trip and fall against it accidentally and be dumped right out the window and down the whole twenty-two stories of the building," I don't call that fantasizing; I call it paranoid dread.

If I saw a politician unguarded, I might think momentarily about how an assassin could have used that moment, but -- given I have zero desire to see anyone hurt -- I'd classify that thought process of mine as "what if" or "catastrophizing" rather than "fantasizing".

Buffysquirrel · Sep 22, 2014

jjdebenedictis said:
If I saw a politician unguarded, I might think momentarily about how an assassin could have used that moment, but -- given I have zero desire to see anyone hurt -- I'd classify that thought process of mine as "what if" or "catastrophizing" rather than "fantasizing".

I think it is quibbling

. I don't see fantasies as intrinsically pleasant. But either way, what-iffing, whatever you wanna call it, is different from planning something you actually intend to carry out.

Ken · Sep 22, 2014

Rather alike to Joan Rivers:

Mantel was also last year centre of a controversy, when she described the Duchess of Cambridge as a bland, “machine made” Princess in a London Review of Books lecture.

Maybe Mantel can take Joan's place on the Fashion Police show alongside Kelly Osborne.

Amadan · Sep 22, 2014

I agree with jjbenedictis's quibbling, and I don't think it's a quibble - the criticism being leveled at Mantel implies that she was fantasizing about killing Margaret Thatcher in the sense of wishing someone would actually do it. There's a significant difference between a "What if?" speculation and an "If only..." desire.

JustSarah · Sep 22, 2014

Oh! So it's a UK thing. Anyone who seriously is that thin skinned, should go read some Alternate History Steampunk. Or go look up the word fiction.

Buffysquirrel · Sep 22, 2014

Amadan said:
There's a significant difference between a "What if?" speculation and an "If only..." desire.

And the difference is?

jjdebenedictis · Sep 22, 2014

Buffysquirrel said:
I think it is quibbling . I don't see fantasies as intrinsically pleasant. But either way, what-iffing, whatever you wanna call it, is different from planning something you actually intend to carry out.

Amadan said:
I agree with jjbenedictis's quibbling, and I don't think it's a quibble - the criticism being leveled at Mantel implies that she was fantasizing about killing Margaret Thatcher in the sense of wishing someone would actually do it. There's a significant difference between a "What if?" speculation and an "If only..." desire.

I'm wondering if this is a matter of the word "fantasize" being used differently by people in different parts of the world? Where I'm from, the connotation of "fantasy" is definitely "something desired", but I can see it meaning only "something imagined" in other parts of the world. And I notice Buffysquirrel is located on the other side of the Atlantic than me...

Amadan · Sep 22, 2014

Buffysquirrel said:
And the difference is?

"What if someone killed Margaret Thatcher?"

"I wish someone would kill Margaret Thatcher."

BenPanced · Sep 22, 2014

Hilary Mantel has recalled the day in 1983 when she spotted an unguarded Margaret Thatcher from the window of her Windsor flat and fantasised about killing her.

"Immediately your eye measures the distance," she told the Guardian, her finger and thumb forming a gun. "I thought, if I wasn't me, if I was someone else, she'd be dead."

Sounds like it was one day over 30 years ago rather than a lifelong obsession.

ETA: Reading this article again, it sounds like she spent more time writing the story and getting it the way she wanted it than actually planning an assassination.

William Haskins · Sep 22, 2014

The thought police would get him just the same. He had committed—would have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper—the essential crime that contained all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, they called it. Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed forever. You might dodge successfully for a while, even for years, but sooner or later they were bound to get you.

People simply disappeared, always during the night. Your name was removed from the registers, every record of everything you had ever done was wiped out, your one-time existence was denied and then forgotten. You were abolished, annihilated: vaporized was the usual word.

- nineteen eighty-four

Buffysquirrel · Sep 23, 2014

Amadan said:
"What if someone killed Margaret Thatcher?"

"I wish someone would kill Margaret Thatcher."

Both involve conceptualising the idea of killing her; neither involves any intent to kill. I think you are seeing difference where there is none and creating what's merely a semantic argument.

Buffysquirrel · Sep 23, 2014

jjdebenedictis said:
I'm wondering if this is a matter of the word "fantasize" being used differently by people in different parts of the world? Where I'm from, the connotation of "fantasy" is definitely "something desired", but I can see it meaning only "something imagined" in other parts of the world. And I notice Buffysquirrel is located on the other side of the Atlantic than me...

Possibly. Again, a semantic issue.

Lillith1991 · Sep 23, 2014

Buffysquirrel said:
Possibly. Again, a semantic issue.

Not likely. I live on the upper east coast of the US and I have a very similar definition of fantasy to yours. Things stop being harmless fantasy to me once someone actually starts planning to carry whatever it is out.

Anyway...has it escaped the notice of the half-wits freaking out about this that the woman is dead? Though considering she's only been in the ground 1.5 years, this could possibly be considered poor taste in when the story was released. But poor taste in ever being written? Hell no!

Hilary Mantel Short Story Accused of 'Bad Taste'

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Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

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Hilary Mantel Short Story Accused of 'Bad Taste'

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Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

I aim to misbehave

Hey, that's my bike!

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