The God thread

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NicoleJLeBoeuf said:
Also worth noting: I was taught that in a Christian Bible, the Old Testament books were in a different order than they had been in the Tanakh. The rearranged order was to create a better prophetical backdrop for Jesus being the promised Messiah. In the original order, the story pointed in quite a different direction.

This is actually a pretty good discussion.

And honestly, when it comes to the textual scholarship of the Bible, you've got to look at two very very different groups of scholarship; the people primarily interested in the Bible as text, and the people primarily interested in the Bible as the word of God.

They use very very different methods, and have very different conclusions. This is not a modern schism either; this goes back at least to Jerome.
 

reph

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Puddle Jumper said:
Your theory lacks logic. "People refuse to believe any truth but their own." Hello? If we believe something to be truth, we're not going to believe in lies.
But, you see, there's another way. Yes, of course people believe what they believe. That doesn't exclude looking for the good in another's beliefs. Some people actually find their lives enriched by open-minded study of alternative principles and interpretations.

I state that the Bible is the ultimate authority by which Christianity is based and anyone claiming a Christian theology which contradicts the Bible because they say the Bible isn't I believe to be false.
There's a problem here: You're not the only person who has a definition of Christianity or Christian theology. To be taken seriously, a claim that one theology is superior to another would have to be supported by something stronger than the fact than one person believes it.

The statement of a judge, jury, and executioner.
That's a pretty dramatic statement, isn't it? Look, I haven't killed anybody or condemned anybody. I gave you my honest evaluation. Perhaps you don't like honest evaluations. The fact is, people often change the way they understand things after they pass age 12. This includes spiritual matters.
 

Haruko_Ito

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Celia Cyanide said:
I don't think God cares nearly as much about what we do as Christians want to believe It does.
As I've read before somewhere:

Find God - He's not hiding from you, you're hiding from Him.
 

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Puddle Jumper said:
Likewise I believe all true martyrs don't want to be martyrd. Yes it's noble, but the desire of Christians in this world should be the desires of reaching as many lost people as they can. Being martyrd means you won't have the opportunity to reach as many people.

PJ, I'm a Christian, and while evangelism is a worthy endeavor, I'd have to say the goal of the Christian would be to say, like Christ, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent me and to finish His work" (John 4:34). As we do God's will, minute by minute, God is glorified. Evangelism may or may not be God's will for you for a particular moment in time. Sometimes "the will of Him who sent me" is for me to just do the dishes. That, then, is what brings God the highest glory--which is the goal of the Christian.

Christ did not evangelize everyone; he didn't heal everyone. But He was able to say at the end of His life, "I have brought You glory on earth by completing the work You gave me to do," (John 17:4). I hope that someday I can say the same.

It is my belief that true martyrs don't want it, but they will die for Jesus before ever denying Him because they know to deny Jesus to save their mortal life for awhile would be eternally devastating.
Maybe, maybe not...I believe in eternal security, because I believe God is faithful even if/when I, in my weakness, am not (2 Timothy 1:12; 2:13). In any case, let us hope that we would die for Christ, not out of fear of losing our slot in heaven, but because we love Him.
 
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Haruko_Ito

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I wish God would give me the words that I need to describe His awesomeness.
 

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Haruko_Ito said:
I wish God would give me the words that I need to describe His awesomeness.
*g* But isn't the whole point that he is beyond human understanding, and thus description?
 

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Puddle, I am sorry that you seem upset about everyone’s responses. Some of the problem here appears to me that, although you say you are not a strict Biblical literalist, you certainly are a literalist when you read our posts. This is a writer’s board. Most folks here are writers or are striving to become writers. Folks tend to use figurative, evocative, and ironic ways of expressing themselves. When Brokenfingers says something like this:
brokenfingers said:
People like that refuse to believe any truth but their own.
He is not using “truth” in its concrete sense. He is being ironic. Of course a person cannot logically hold two completely incompatible versions of truth in his head at the same time: that is called cognitive dissonance, and it leads to brain meltdown. Read Orwell’s 1984 for a good explication of what happens then.
And when I write this:
I must say that you are the first person ever to accuse me of that. I doubt that they would have me
Of course I am not annoyed that you are “accusing me of being a Mormon.” I know that you were saying no such thing. I was just being gently ironic, with my tongue a bit in my cheek. If you hang out at a writer’s board you are going to find that most folks play with language. They do this for emphasis, for clarity, and for effect. It’s enjoyable to us. Look at Haskins: he has a good time needling all of us.

So I repeat my admonition to you: “Friend, thou dispute too much and hear too little.” But even so, good luck on your Quixotic quest, Puddle the cat herder, trying to convince a motley crew of writer types to end up in the same spot (that's a metaphor: I know that we are not cats. Well, not having seen any of these folks I don't know that. But I'm pretty sure.)

And again, peace be with thee.
 
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Haruko_Ito

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Aconite said:
*g* But isn't the whole point that he is beyond human understanding, and thus description?
God is beyond human understanding, but as our creator, He knows us better than we know ourselves and can thus communicate to us in ways that we can understand Him.
 

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Haruko_Ito said:
God is beyond human understanding, but as our creator, He knows us better than we know ourselves and can thus communicate to us in ways that we can understand Him.
Yes, but that doesn't mean we limited creatures have the ability to describe him.
 

Puddle Jumper

pb10220 said:
PJ, I'm a Christian, and while evangelism is a worthy endeavor, I'd have to say the goal of the Christian would be to say, like Christ, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent me and to finish His work" (John 4:34). As we do God's will, minute by minute, God is glorified. Evangelism may or may not be God's will for you for a particular moment in time. Sometimes "the will of Him who sent me" is for me to just do the dishes. That, then, is what brings God the highest glory--which is the goal of the Christian.

Christ did not evangelize everyone; he didn't heal everyone. But He was able to say at the end of His life, "I have brought You glory on earth by completing the work You gave me to do," (John 17:4). I hope and pray that someday I can say the same.
My food?

He didn't heal everyone in the world, but I don't recall Him ever not healing someone who came to Him or that He came across.

But granted. I don't go up to every person I see and start telling them about Jesus. Some people do and feel comfortable with that. I tend to evangelize in the same way I would accept someone evangelizing to me. If someone came up to me out of the blue and started preaching, I would tune out. But if I someone takes the time to develop a friendship with me, I'm more likely to hear what they have to say. Likewise, I want to develop a friendship with a person first because I feel they'd hear me better if the knew I genuinely cared for them.

God is glorified in our obedience. If someone asks us to do something, like the dishes, I believe God is glorified when we do them without grumbling or complaining or waiting. I think God is glorified when we give a compliment to a person, Christian or not. I think He's glorified when we choose not to gossip when it's so easy to.

I apologize if it sounded like I was saying we should only be focused on evangelizing. I fear I'm not usually focused that way. I do hope though that if a time came that He would want me to share with someone the saving grace of the Lord Jesus, that I would be ready and share.

pb10220 said:
Maybe, maybe not...I believe in eternal security, because I believe God is faithful even if/when I, in my weakness, am not (2 Timothy 1:12; 2:13). In any case, let us hope that we would die for Christ, not out of fear of losing our slot in heaven, but because we love Him.
Well, I think more those who have been true martyrs actually hoped that Jesus would return and take them alive. I certainly hope that.

For me personally, I don't want to be executed for my faith. I don't like the idea of a painful death. But at the same time, I can't think of any greater honor. So I kinda feel torn on the issue.
 

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Aconite said:
Yes, but that doesn't mean we limited creatures have the ability to describe him.
In a very vague way, perhaps. There is no possible way to fully describe Him. There never will be a absolutely correct way. As my Aunt likes to say, "If we could fully comprehend the greatness of our Lord, our heads would explode." Lol.
 

Puddle Jumper

reph said:
That's a pretty dramatic statement, isn't it? Look, I haven't killed anybody or condemned anybody. I gave you my honest evaluation. Perhaps you don't like honest evaluations. The fact is, people often change the way they understand things after they pass age 12. This includes spiritual matters.
Reph what did you expect? You attacked my faith. You attacked something you can't know anything about. I would never have made that accusation against anyone on this board including another Christian. Yet you, who have claimed that you're not a Christian, are going to tell me what my faith is like? Evaluation? You seriously think that's what you did? I guess I can't expect you to understand though. But that's it.
 

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Puddle Jumper said:

Yes, it was that which kept Him going. It was as necessary to Him as food itself. He needed it continually, day-in, day-out. Pretty apt word, don't you think?
He didn't heal everyone in the world, but I don't recall Him ever not healing someone who came to Him or that He came across.
Yes, my point was only His constant obedience to Father's will; sometimes spending hours on a mountaintop in prayer (to hear what that will was), sometimes eating dinner with sinners, sometimes teaching in the synagogue, sometimes healing, sometimes remaining silent (eg. when before Pilate).
God is glorified in our obedience. If someone asks us to do something, like the dishes, I believe God is glorified when we do them without grumbling or complaining or waiting. I think God is glorified when we give a compliment to a person, Christian or not. I think He's glorified when we choose not to gossip when it's so easy to.
God is glorified in our obedience to Him. (And you probably meant that :).) Regarding compliments, that may or may not glorify Him...it depends. (Is it truthful, is it said with an ulterior motive, etc.)
 

Puddle Jumper

I wasn't quite catching what you were saying about food, got it now.

Yes, compliments can have ulterior motives. If I'm trying to suck up by offering a compliment I make it so obvious that I'm joking that everyone laughs. I don't care much for brown-nosers. Generally if I offer a compliment, however, it's because compliments always make me feel better and I'm trying to make someone feel better. :)

I do agree with all you said there. Obeying the Father's will is so many things, it's listening to Him and following Him, going where He sends whether to spend time alone with Him or with other Christians or to go to the lost or do chores or whatever.
 

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Haruko_Ito said:
I wish God would give me the words that I need to describe His awesomeness.

You don't need words. As I've said at least twice elsewhere, Go outside on a starry night with a pair of binoculars. Visit the Grand Canyon. Hug your kids. Go feed people at a homeless shelter.

Stay away from your local church.

Those are all the words you'll need.

caw.
 
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reph

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Puddle Jumper said:
Reph what did you expect? You attacked my faith. You attacked something you can't know anything about. I would never have made that accusation against anyone on this board including another Christian. Yet you, who have claimed that you're not a Christian, are going to tell me what my faith is like? Evaluation? You seriously think that's what you did? I guess I can't expect you to understand though. But that's it.
Puddle, what did you expect when you said children tell lies all the time? That isn't true, it's stereotyping, and it's unfair. I spoke up for truthful children everywhere. I remember being a child who was subject to that same judgment from adults who assumed children were dishonest. It wasn't fair then, either.

I can't know how your faith feels to you, but the way you talk about it reveals a kind of absolutism often found in adolescents' beliefs about religious, political, and social issues, less often found in adults' beliefs. I don't need to be a Christian to see that. Any small lie condemns a child to eternal torment? Isn't that a bit, um, extreme? How can you wonder why the phrase "black-and-white thinking" comes to mind?

Reasonable people say "Nobody's perfect" – a far cry from "We all belong in hell."

No, you can't expect me to understand, if "understand" means "agree." All you can expect is that I'll listen, and I won't issue punishments, because I don't do that. I think you know what I mean.
 

aruna

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Puddle Jumper said:
Your theory lacks logic. "People refuse to believe any truth but their own." Hello? If we believe something to be truth, we're not going to believe in lies. That goes for what you believe in, what Aruna believes in, and what every person on earth believes in. Brokenfingers, you are trying to say that only those who believe a certain way are like this. No, every human being is like that. If we believe something to be truth, if someone comes along with something contradictory to what we believe to be truth, we are going to refuse it.

.

You can't spek for me, Puddlejumper. I don't see truth the way you do. For me there are truths, and there is Truth. "Truths" (small t) are how you and I see the world, and God. We are all limited in our ability to comprehend, and so interpret according to our mentality, our intellectual ability, our emotiional make up. Your truth may be contradictory to mine, but I know yours is 100% right for you and even if it contradicts my truth, I know it is as right FOR YOU as mine is for me.

That is the nature of truth with a small t- it adapts, and it is subjective.

However, there is Truth, with a capital T. That which really IS. Or even that which ISN'T, if there is no God. Neither you nor I know this Truth. It is far beyond our comprehension. I happen to believe in a supreme inteligence, call it God for the sake of conversation, and I try to understand, but that understanding can never be Truth, as it is limited by my own limitations, which are manifold.

I am limited and so are you. All we see are shadows, compared with what really IS. All that you can see and I can see are little prisms of that Truth. It's utter megalomania for us with our finite minds to say they have have the whole Truth - which obviously contains infinity, eternity, and all those ungraspable absolutes! That is why I do not, as you claim, refuse your truth. I just believe it is YOUR truth, and exists as reality for you, and I respect your right to have it and will never, have never, tried to talk you out of it or say it is a lie.

All I have ever said, is that you cannot speak for another person. Your truth may be valid for you, but not for another human being living across the world from you, with a totally different everyday reality. If you cannot accept that that person has a different perspective of Truth, a different prism, if you like, then you are living in a dream world, because he simply does. Deal with it!

Trying to understand that person, seeing things from his vantage point, might actually bring you a teeny bit nearer to the capital T Truth. Surely the more prisms we can see the better.

And yes, even the Bible, even if it is really IS the Word of God (I have never disputed that), is only a part of your prism. It is not the whole Truth, with capital T. It might be a pointer towards truth with a capital T, but it can never be it, because that is simply too vast to be contained within the pages of a single book, or be grasped by words, or by a puny human mind. You speak of the need for humility - I think this is an instance where it is needed.

God is perfectly capable of contradicting himself. It's a fingersnap. He can give you one Word of God, which is what you need to follow and obey implicitly, because it is right for you, and a Muslim a different one, and a Buddhist a different one. That is surely the nature of such an infinite and all-powerful being - he can do what he wants, when he wants. Who are you to tell him he can't? Who are you to say God has to give everyone the same book of rules? Doesn't a parent raise each child differently, according to each one's needs? Doesn't a loud, rambunctious child need a different approach to a shy, withdrawn child?


And yes, my saying this is again only a small-t truth - my truth, as opposed to yours. You will counter it with your small-t truth. But for you to say that you (plural) alone have the whole Truth is in itself an obvious lie.

The attempt by man to comprehend the Mind of God (that again of course is only a metaphor!) is like an ant trying to comprehend a human. No, like a hand-mde doll trying to comprehend its creator. We just cannot do it with our finite minds.

I grew up with both atheism and Christianity, and neither satisfied me. For years I was immersed in Christianity, and it never grabbed me, though I had a great hunger for truth. Now I can respect and understand Christianity. I don't reject Jesus, quite the contrary. I do consider him a Son of God. I even believe he died for the sins of those who accept him as a personal saviour.

But he is not my personal saviour, and did not die for my sins. It is not for you to say otherwise. Deal with it.
 

aruna

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rekirts said:
If you don't know what religion you are, you can take this quiz.

)

I did this test some months ago and I came out with neo-paganism 100%, Hinduism 99% - funny how your Hinduism is so much lower than mine, I wonder which question we answered differently?
 
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aruna

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reph said:
Puddle, what did you expect when you said children tell lies all the time? That isn't true, it's stereotyping, and it's unfair. I spoke up for truthful children everywhere. I remember being a child who was subject to that same judgment from adults who assumed children were dishonest. It wasn't fair then, either.

.

My daughter has an amazing natural morality. Once, when she was five, we went shopping in a garden centre and bought three big sacks of earth. The cashier only calsulated one sack, and we discovered our mistake when we got home. Oh, Look, we got two bags for free! My daughter caught on and insisted that we drive back to the store and pay for the other two. She is extremely sensitive to other people, and often reprimands me. Mum, you should have been more friendly to that person, mum, you were lost in your dream world again, it looks rude, mum, you didn't say please.
Once she was caught holding a cigarette at school. She told the teacher she was holding it for a friend, which she was, however, their policy is to inform parents. The teacher told me, yes, I beliebve her, because she is always truthful, but I have to inform you anyway.
I never had to teach her not to lie. She just doesn't.
I am quite amazed by her.
 

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pb10220 said:
Almost the same, but not quite :) . Firstly, the Bible claims that man was not simply ignorant, and therefore falling short of perfection; it claims he rebelled, and chose to be outside of God's will, even while knowing it.

The second difference is that the Hindu's grace is extended without punishing sin, without the need for atonement (Christ's work on the cross). I can see how this would be very much more appealing--for a god simply to extend grace without condemning sin. This seems a much kinder, gentler god at first glance. But awhile back I posted that the Christian concept of God is that He is the epitome of all that is Holy and Good. If so, His Goodness requires that He also be Just, and that sin not go unpunished. (This sense of goodness requiring justice is not foreign; it forms the basis for our legal system, in fact.) So because God is Holy and Just, He must punish sin; but because He is at the same time Good and Merciful, and above all, Love, He Himself provided the way for His Justice to be met--through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus. "For without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin" (Hebrews 9:22, 10:18).

It's true that the Hindu does not believe that God punishes us; instead, he believes that we punish ourselves, through the law of Karma. Whatever we do, bad or god, boomerangs back to us sooner or later; all our acts are reflected in the outside world. God, meanwhile, is only grace, love and compassion. If we open our hearts to him we can feel it. While we are undergoing great hardships - punishment for sins we may not remember - we can still turn to God, bearing hardships without complaining helps us to overcome that karma much more quickly - we have learnt our lesson, and can go on to the next.
Just giving another perspective.
 

reph

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aruna said:
I never had to teach her not to lie. She just doesn't.
Is this unusual? I'm surprised. I would have thought truthtelling came naturally. You open your mouth, and what you believe comes out, not what you don't believe.
 

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"like Amway without the soap"

pb10220 said:
Puddle Jumper said:
...but the desire of Christians in this world should be the desires of reaching as many lost people as they can.
PJ, I'm a Christian, and while evangelism is a worthy endeavor, I'd have to say the goal of the Christian would be to say, like Christ, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent me and to finish His work" (John 4:34).
I would hope that evangelism wasn't the foremost, be-all end-all goal of any religion. If it were, that religion would become like a chain letter whose entire message was simply the exhortation to make five copies and send it to your friends. What's the point of passing on a message if it has no content beyond "pass it on!"?

Fred-the-Slacktivist wrote, as part of his ongoing dissection/critique/condemnation of the Left Behind books, an insightful post about this particular brand of evangelical Christianity, in which the evangelizing bit becomes more important to the Christian than the Christianity bit. (And keep in mind that Fred describes himself as an evangelical Christian, so these aren't the words of some outsider bashing the insiders here.) The kernel of it is here:

slacktivist.typepad.com said:
Contemporary American-style evangelism is made even stranger by the fact that it seems devoid of content. It's become a turtles-all-the-way-down exercise with no apparent real bottom. Evangelism means, literally, the telling of good news. Surely there must be more to this good news than simply that the hearers of it become obliged to turn around and tell it to others. And those others, in turn, are obliged to tell still others the good news of their obligation to spread this news.

That may be an effective marketing strategy, but what is the product? There doesn't seem to be a product -- only a self-perpetuating marketing scheme. It's like Amway without the soap.

Bruce Barnes -- and LaHaye and Jenkins -- is certainly right that evangelism is an imperative, a duty, for Christians. Jesus' final words to his disciples included his "Great Commission" -- "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel ..."

But in the soapless-Amway model of American-style evangelism, it seems like the Great Commission is the gospel. This makes no sense -- it is an ouroboros, a Moebius strip, a spiritualized version of the child's prank of writing on both sides of a dollar bill, "How do you keep an idiot busy all day? (See other side for answer)."
I can empathize with a salesman more if he's actually got a product to sell. Not that I'll necessarily buy it, but I can still empathize. But if all he's selling is the obligation for me to go forth and sell alongside of him, then what the heck is there for me to emphathize with?
 

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reph said:
Is this unusual? I'm surprised. I would have thought truthtelling came naturally. You open your mouth, and what you believe comes out, not what you don't believe.
I think some children, particularly highly imaginative ones, see the world through very different eyes than adults. They may tell the truth as it appears to them, even though it isn't the same as adults' truth.
 
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