Magical Realism

wysewomon said:

I've always felt that if you're a white American guy, then it's probably fantasy. If you're brown, a woman or from another country, then it's Magical Realism.

Of course, that still doesn't account for Emma Bull.

WW

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So no brown people or women or not-Americans write fantasy? That would be shocking news to an awful lot of us. I'm going to go ahead and call shenanigans.

Kitty Pryde said:

So no brown people or women or not-Americans write fantasy? That would be shocking news to an awful lot of us. I'm going to go ahead and call shenanigans.

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Oops, that didn't come out quite the way I meant it. Well, it was four in the morning...

WW

wysewomon said:

Oops, that didn't come out quite the way I meant it. Well, it was four in the morning...

WW

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That's no excuse! lol


There's certainly a correlation between certain demographics and Magical Realism, which is often strictly defined as a certain subset of works by hispanic/latino authors, but it's more of a cultural rather than racial issue.

wysewomon said:

I've always felt that if you're a white American guy, then it's probably fantasy. If you're brown, a woman or from another country, then it's Magical Realism.

WW

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Heh, I am not brown but technically ethnic, does that count?

'Magical Realism' has been around in folk tales and gossip since forever. The whole 'brown people' thing is that folk tales went out of style a long time ago in Western Civilization. Every now and then there is something of a revival though.

The problem with Magical Realism is that it gives your story more of a tall-tale/gossipy feel. I think it starts to get old fast (like Shyamalan movies). In my mind it is the opposite of explaining everything in your story, but neither extreme is best for fiction.

the_Unknown said:

'Magical Realism' has been around in folk tales and gossip since forever. The whole 'brown people' thing is that folk tales went out of style a long time ago in Western Civilization. Every now and then there is something of a revival though.

The problem with Magical Realism is that it gives your story more of a tall-tale/gossipy feel. I think it starts to get old fast (like Shyamalan movies). In my mind it is the opposite of explaining everything in your story, but neither extreme is best for fiction.

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-Magical realism is not the same as a folk tale.
-I don't really understand the assumption that 'brown people' and 'Western Civilization' are mutually exclusive.
-Folk tales are alive and well in 'Western Civilization'. Have you ever heard of an urban legend?
-Magic realism is not really tall tale like or gossipy.

Originally Posted by the_Unknown
'Magical Realism' has been around in folk tales and gossip since forever. The whole 'brown people' thing is that folk tales went out of style a long time ago in Western Civilization. Every now and then there is something of a revival though.

The problem with Magical Realism is that it gives your story more of a tall-tale/gossipy feel. I think it starts to get old fast (like Shyamalan movies). In my mind it is the opposite of explaining everything in your story, but neither extreme is best for fiction.

Kitty Pryde said:

-Magical realism is not the same as a folk tale.
-I don't really understand the assumption that 'brown people' and 'Western Civilization' are mutually exclusive.
-Folk tales are alive and well in 'Western Civilization'. Have you ever heard of an urban legend?
-Magic realism is not really tall tale like or gossipy.

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I have to agree with TU more on this, actually. MR is [most?] often from the folk tales of the region, or it uses the same elements and suspension of disbelief that the local folk tales do.

The colonized West (etc) really does have more magic than the Colonial West.

I agree that folk tales are still somewhat alive in the West

I think MR is often very tall-tale like. It's the sort of thing where narrative exaggeration meets a culture that already believes in a little magic, imho.

When your grandfather tells a story about a river turning to blood, as a child you straight-out believe it; and as an adult you know it's more of a tall tale. But you also know that something magical quite possibly happened

the_Unknown said:

'Magical Realism' has been around in folk tales and gossip since forever. The whole 'brown people' thing is that folk tales went out of style a long time ago in Western Civilization. Every now and then there is something of a revival though.

The problem with Magical Realism is that it gives your story more of a tall-tale/gossipy feel. I think it starts to get old fast (like Shyamalan movies). In my mind it is the opposite of explaining everything in your story, but neither extreme is best for fiction.

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No.

Kitty Pryde said:

-Magical realism is not the same as a folk tale.
-I don't really understand the assumption that 'brown people' and 'Western Civilization' are mutually exclusive.
-Folk tales are alive and well in 'Western Civilization'. Have you ever heard of an urban legend?
-Magic realism is not really tall tale like or gossipy.

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1) No one said this. You assumed so because you did not comprehend?

2) Yes because whenever I open a book on Western Civilization I'm reading mostly about 'brown people' and their achievements. BTW, did you know that books on plumbing and computers are 'not mutually exclusive'? I just thought I'd inform you.

3) Right because all of the biggest stories are urban myths. Harry Potter, Pirates of the Caribbean, Star Wars, Titanic, Twilight, Back to the Future, and of course my favorite, WW2.

4) Have you read any 'Magical Realism'? Have you read any tall tales or legends?

Let's review:
"If you can explain it, then it's not 'magical realism'."
- Mexican critic, Luis Leal

Tall Tale:

"Bunyan's birth was strange, as it took three storks to carry the infant (ordinarily, one stork could carry several babies and drop them off at their parents' homes)."

Magical Realism:

"Úrsula Iguarán's uncle was born with a pig's tail."

Tall Tale:

"Paul and Babe the Blue Ox, dug the Grand Canyon when he dragged his axe behind him."

Magical Realism:

"Colombia's economy shrinks and grows with Aureliano Segundo's belly."

Tall Tale:

"When Bunyan was old enough to clap and laugh, the vibration broke every window in the house."

Magical Realism:

"As soon as Aureliano Buendía learned to speak, everything he said came true."

And it goes on and on...

kuwisdelu said:

No.

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What a carefully crafted post. Just another marvel of the 7+ thousand of them, right?

kuwisdelu said:

No.

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Lol; I have the best article on this debate somewhere, but I didn't feel like searching for ages. I think you convinced me that my instincts were right

I really would like to hear what's so 'no' about it.

I think he/she's right! There are examples that don't sound folksy or tall-tale like, of course, but I think the Latino MRs and Gunter Grass and the African MRs always remind me of them.

*gets a headache trying to figure out what magic realism is*

Why must we splinter genres so!

Shadow_Ferret said:

*gets a headache trying to figure out what magic realism is*

Why must we splinter genres so!

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I think it's easier to see if you just read a lot of it (or watch certain movies, actually). It's almost a flavor. And how do you describe a flavor?

I do think it's pretty distinct, but it reminds me of stories my mom's family and my Guatamalen teacher told when I was young, and I miss it. (There is a political edge very, very often that wasn't in those stories -- not actual regimes. But you knew why my Native American grandfather always wore a knife, you know?)

[That said, I don't know if my WIP is MR any more. I can't decide if the magic is too matter-of-fact (how, in MR?) or not matter-of-fact enough. But something is off. Oh, well... new genre, lol ]

At the rsik of imploding the fabric of spacetime, I agree with ShadowFerret.

The simplest way I can think of to put the difference is that in "tall tales" the tallness/magic/exaggerated elements are essentially the story. In magical realism, the magical elements are more or less used as a narrative technique to further the real story.

kuwisdelu said:

The simplest way I can think of to put the difference is that in "tall tales" the tallness/magic/exaggerated elements are essentially the story. In magical realism, the magical elements are more or less used as a narrative technique to further the real story.

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Well, that is very true, yes, imho. Some crucial plot events are often shown with the exaggeration, but nobody is supposed to be impressed by the amazing aspects because they are amazing.

The story still isn't about this amazing magical person because he's magical, exactly. Everyone could know somebody like that is the feeling I get. True.

backslashbaby said:

Well, that is very true, yes, imho. Some crucial plot events are often shown with the exaggeration, but nobody is supposed to be impressed by the amazing aspects because they are amazing.

The story still isn't about this amazing magical person because he's magical, exactly. Everyone could know somebody like that is the feeling I get. True.

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Yep.

If someone tells a big fish story, the story is about the big fish and how big it is. Without the fish being so big, the story wouldn't matter at all, and no one would care.

If Hemingway had described the fish in The Old Man and the Sea as slowly growing into the size of a whale, it would still be the same story, though, because it's about more than just the fish.

I posted an interview today with Jennifer Cervantes (Tortilla Sun) and her agent, Laurie McLean (of Larsen Pomada Ligterary Agents), on the topic "Is Magical Realism Fantasy?" The blog is geared toward writers and readers of YA & MG fantasy.

http://community.livejournal.com/enchantedinkpot/46866.html

Thank you! Tortilla Sun sounds very interesting, and I'm enjoying the discussion very much.

I don't have $80 to plunk down on an authoritative text about the ordinary in MR, but that is a specific subject that interests me terribly nowadays, and I've been studying. Yes, the ordinary is what's more strange (ice, for instance) in MR. Magic is practically boring

That's a huge theme in my WIP, so I love any discussion of it

xxxxxx on February 24th, 2010 07:21 pm (UTC)
Re: Magic realisim

"I read or heard, that in magic realism the surreal magical elements are portrayed as a normal part of life, and the normal events in life are the unexpected bizarre elements."

I think this is one of the best definitions I've heard yet! I'm going to run it by my mother-in-law, who's a professor of Latin American literature and has made many failed attempts to explain magic realism to me in the past...

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http://community.livejournal.com/enchantedinkpot/46866.html

One of my personal definitions of magical realism is a story where the difference between metaphor and reality breaks down.

jencervantes said:

For example, in Tortilla Sun, the wind whispers to Izzy (to her it is startling since she is not a member of the village) but to the villagers, it is an acceptable element in their world and as normal as the tree swaying in the wind.

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To her it is startling, see?

The villagers have no need for magical realism. It's just real.

A scientist would call it fantasy.

But Izzy may have to live in both worlds and construct a single biography for herself.

It's very often about identity. The coming-home motif isn't rare. There are often main characters who struggle to live in a world where different people try to define what's real, and the main characters often struggle against the need to take sides. Not respect enough for the elders, and distrustful of lunatic asylums.

I tend to think that the basic principle of magic realism is that - however we determine what's real - we all storify our lives.

Is magical realism fantasy? No, but the terms aren't mutually exclusive. What happens a lot in non-MR fantasy is the "instrumentalisation" of magic. A bit like technology, but minus the mass production. Magic is often the playground of power. Who casts the more powerful spell? What God comes out victorious? How do we slay vampires?

Magic Realism tends to treat the magical elements as unique instead. Rather than an instrument to achieve an end, or an element that hinders or helps you, it's an aspect of the world to deal with. It is a miracle. It is unsual. But that it is unusual is quite normal. Or differently put: you don't expect miracles to grow on miracle trees (which you can plant), but you do expect to encounter one or two, occasionally. And don't you miss them.

I think what MR needs most is nice word for half-breed, mongrel, bastard.

After reading all that has been discussed, I am left with the feeling that MR parallels the art movement known as Surrealism. Things are simply presented as a given, to be taken for what they are and internalised for what they mean to the perceiver.

MMcQuown said:

After reading all that has been discussed, I am left with the feeling that MR parallels the art movement known as Surrealism. Things are simply presented as a given, to be taken for what they are and internalised for what they mean to the perceiver.

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Surrealism is the one I find hard to separate from MR; I agree. Of course, if it's entirely surreal there isn't the 'realism' part of MR, so that's easy.

But if something has surreal elements, I think that's hard. It might need themes of the Other, or identity, to be MR, I think. Or maybe culture/society in a more general way.

Just stumbled upon this thread and wow, it's rocked my world. Made my head hurt some. Has definitely made me think. I'll be looking for some of the novels mentioned.

How nice to find people who discuss literature. So glad I was directed to AW.

See, the problem I have with Magic Realism is that the definitions for the term seem to me to be quite subjective. I've seen every MR trope mentioned in this thread used in stories that are marketed as normal fantasy. And this passage irks me, since I've read a lot of 'fantasy' works that do exactly as it states:

It's possible to read magical realism as fantasy, just as it's possible to dismiss people who believe in witches as primitives or fools. But the literature at its best invites the reader to compassionately experience the world as many of our fellow human beings see it.

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And I've read MR in the fashion described, and I still see it as fantasy. Go figure.

So, how, if you don't mind me asking, does MR count as a separate genre from fantasy? I can understand thinking of MR as a form of fantasy, but I fail to see a justification for viewing it as a separate variety of storytelling in its own right.

I admit to being heavily biased against the genre, as my first experience with it was from reading extremely snobby and condescending comments from a critic comparing it to 'normal' fantasy (For me, nothing makes an artist or critic lose respect faster than being a snob.). This left a very sour taste in my mouth, and I've since been predisposed to think of MR as 'fantasy for people who don't like fantasy'. Much of my experience with MR fans since then has been fairly negative as well, with many of them launching into self-righteous rants about how 'fantasy has no literary merit' and so forth.

But I want to change my opinion on the genre, which is why I'm asking you guys, who I have seen thus far to be civil and not condescending, to weigh in on this. I doubt I'll become a fan of Magic Realism, but I'd like to at least have a better perspective on it.