Pro-Democracy protests in Hong Kong rattle Chinese government

Interesting stuff. From the link:

Today is the inevitable consequence of last month's announcement from the Chinese parliament about restrictions on universal suffrage, but it is also a direct political challenge to Beijing - and therefore a defining test for China's promise on one country, two systems.

Click to expand...

My understanding is that China agreed to allow HK to keep their own political system for fifty years, starting with the British handover in 97. It would seem like this sort of thing would be a pretty clear violation, unless I'm missing something.

Michael Wolfe said:

Interesting stuff. From the link:



My understanding is that China agreed to allow HK to keep their own political system for fifty years, starting with the British handover in 97. It would seem like this sort of thing would be a pretty clear violation, unless I'm missing something.

Click to expand...

Since when have political promises had a shelf life longer than the willingness of the ruling class to respect them? This was inevitable from the first day Hong Kong was handed over to a ruling elite that despises the very basic ideals that made Hong Kong a roaring success for so long.

The world's freest economy under the control of a communist regime? I'm surprised the promises lasted this long.

Communism with Certain Chinese Characteristics = billionaires with tanks. soldiers and compliant peasants.

Rufus Coppertop said:

Communism with Certain Chinese Characteristics = billionaires with tanks. soldiers and compliant peasants.

Click to expand...

Those are Chinese characteristics? Not to be found in North Korea, Cuba, Laos or Vietnam?

ETA: If anybody starts a chip-in to support Hong Kong's secession from China, I'll donate.

You've got me there.

The Chinese government has promised direct elections for chief executive by 2017.

But in August 2014 China's top legislative committee ruled that voters will only have a choice from a list of two or three candidates selected by a nominating committee.

This committee would be formed "in accordance with" Hong Kong's largely pro-Beijing election committee. Any candidate would have to secure the support of more than 50% of the nominating committee before being able to run in the election.

Democracy activists believe China will use the committee to screen out candidates it disapproves of.

Click to expand...

That seems terribly restrictive. Over here in the US, we have TWO committees that approve candidates.

Of course, both of those committees are also largely pro-Beijing.

Don said:

ETA: If anybody starts a chip-in to support Hong Kong's secession from China, I'll donate.

Click to expand...

I actually wonder if a majority would even want independence. Just from talking to some friends who are from HK, I'd guess the reverse is true, though admittedly it's a small sample size.

Hong Kong would be better off joining the UK.

Tim Luard notes some of the similarities between the situation in Hong Kong and Tiananmen Square. As to the question of whether China could possibly use a similar show of force in the end, he writes:

Hundreds if not thousands died as tanks and troops firing live ammunition advanced on Tiananmen Square.

It seems inconceivable that China would again resort to armed force - turning "Umbrella Man" into "Tank Man" - in front of the world's media.

Yet few of us believed at the time that the army would ever open fire on unarmed students in China's capital, where there were also plenty of foreign journalists on hand.

Click to expand...

I hear tell that they've moved an armor unit through the New Territories, and it's being staged outside of Kowloon. Don't know how big of a unit and what kind of infantry support it has/doesn't have, but Big Brother is probably getting ready for the kind of take down that the PLA does so well.

Noah Body said:

I hear tell that they've moved an armor unit through the New Territories, and it's being staged outside of Kowloon. Don't know how big of a unit and what kind of infantry support it has/doesn't have, but Big Brother is probably getting ready for the kind of take down that the PLA does so well.

Click to expand...

Is there a link? I don't doubt you, I'd just be curious to read about it.

I don't usually have links to information that's delivered to me directly from folks on the ground. Can't verify the authenticity personally, but the person who told me is usually pretty well-informed, plus she lives in Kowloon.

That's fair. Always nice to have information from people who are living there.

I asked her to take photos when she gets the chance, just because I'm interested in seeing what they might or don't have. It would strain credulity to think the PLA would actually use them, as Hongkies aren't exactly the most dedicated people in China and can probably be controlled by the SAR police. But if the movement is true, then it certainly suggests that Xi Jingping is a much colder guy than Hu Jintao, and he was supposed to be one tough nut.

But as they say in China: [FONT=&quot]人生苦短[/FONT]

"Life is short and bitter."

Apparently there are questions about how sustainable these protests are, even if China doesn't move to crush them.

On Thursday, crowds at the main protest site appeared noticeably thinner. Some said the turnout could be smaller because it's a traditional holiday when families visit their ancestors' graves.

Fewer people were camped out and sitting on the roads than earlier this week. More people were milling about and wandering the streets.

"It's so quiet," Brian Lam, 21, a student who has participated in the protests for the past five days, said as he leaned against a highway barrier. "There are so few people," he said, in comparison to the two previous days. He said he worried that the reduced crowd could make it easier for police to move in.

Click to expand...

Heh. Kind of like OWS when it started to get chilly at night.

I wonder how hard it is for people, who grew up on a certain amount of democracy, to accept China-style party rule. I know I'd never accept it.

Teinz said:

I wonder how hard it is for people, who grew up on a certain amount of democracy, to accept China-style party rule. I know I'd never accept it.

Click to expand...

Me neither. But, then, what would you *do* about it?

That's when the nightmares begin.

robjvargas said:

Me neither. But, then, what would you *do* about it?

That's when the nightmares begin.

Click to expand...

Take to the streets, I reckon.


Edit
Oh, forgot to elaborate. The students at Tiananmen 1.0 didn't grow up with democracy. The students in Hong Kong did. I wonder what this means for the amount of resolve they have, to see this through to the end.

Teinz said:

Oh, forgot to elaborate. The students at Tiananmen 1.0 didn't grow up with democracy. The students in Hong Kong did. I wonder what this means for the amount of resolve they have, to see this through to the end.

Click to expand...

This is one of the biggest obstacles that seems to have really surprised those trying to end the protests. When someone's lived under -or as part of- a repressive group for so long that they no longer question the official accounts of things, being faced with people raised in an environment where they have always been allowed, if not encouraged, to question authority is like going to another planet.

Just one point, for example:
Hong Kong was due for elections in 2017. Elections where they'd be allowed to choose their own government representatives. This has been in place since early in the reclamation of HK by China. But as of this year, China has decided that they'll honor those elections if they get to appoint the candidates, meaning there's little choice in the matter for HK citizens.

This would be similar to Washington suddenly deciding to tell the states that they can maintain their representatives in congress, and for their state governments, but they're only allowed to choose from a pre-selected list of candidates chosen by the Senate and submitted via official notification.

Cyia said:

This is one of the biggest obstacles that seems to have really surprised those trying to end the protests. When someone's lived under -or as part of- a repressive group for so long that they no longer question the official accounts of things, being faced with people raised in an environment where they have always been allowed, if not encouraged, to question authority is like going to another planet.

Click to expand...

Oh, boy, have you got that right!