35,000 Words and Doubting - Plot Query.

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Alma Matters

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This is a query regarding my current WIP.


I’m just over 35,000 words into my novel and it’s become a little bit of a slog. The main reason (I Think) – doubts about my plotting.

The story, so far, revolves around three different characters (Claire, Brian and Tom) which come together at the end of the first act. The problem I’ve found is that two of the three have a lot less ‘page time’. Is this a terrible problem?

The character with the glut of words, Claire, consumes about 15-20k words (a guess-timate) of what I have so far.

I envisage the novel in three parts so far.

The first part deals with the three characters and their separate lives. They come together ‘by chance’ in a particular location. Claire gets more screen time as she gets their first and the place is important.

Having only written most of the first part here is my plan for the next two parts…

The second part is historical and only features one of the characters (Brian) and the relative of the other (Tom), lesser character from part one. Claire and Tom are not involved at all.

The third part is back in the present and should feature all three characters equally … and hopefully an ending which is nowhere to be found.

I understand this is quite long winded and probably difficult to follow – any feedback would help.
 

ash.y

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Page count difference: Don't worry about it. You said yourself that different characters feature more heavily in different parts (though it sounds like Tom could potentially be cut as a POV). This question is impossible to answer unless the entire book is written and we've read it.

Also: so this is a book where the character lines tie together, but you don't know how it's going to end? That could be why the middle is proving hard to write. Middles can be a pain at the best of times, so keep pushing through and think about your plot more!
 

Usher

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Is there anything other than the point of view split that bothers you?
 

Sonsofthepharaohs

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This is a query regarding my current WIP.


I’m just over 35,000 words into my novel and it’s become a little bit of a slog. The main reason (I Think) – doubts about my plotting.

Welcome to plotting hell! I can show you round - I've been here a while ;)

The story, so far, revolves around three different characters (Claire, Brian and Tom) which come together at the end of the first act. The problem I’ve found is that two of the three have a lot less ‘page time’. Is this a terrible problem?

Not necessarily... unless your page-stealer is not doing anything interesting to forward the plot. And if your two wallflower characters don't get enough attention, is it because they really aren't interesting enough? If so... make em more interestinger :D

I envisage the novel in three parts so far.

The first part deals with the three characters and their separate lives. They come together ‘by chance’ in a particular location. Claire gets more screen time as she gets their first and the place is important.

So... the setting could almost be a 4th character? Those two wallflowers are now even eclipsed by background scenery... not looking too good for them.

The second part is historical and only features one of the characters (Brian) and the relative of the other (Tom), lesser character from part one. Claire and Tom are not involved at all.

Oooooohhh... kay. I think this is where you might start to have a problem. The main character thus far is ditched to focus on one of the wallflowers and the other wallflower's relative, who hasn't even been mentioned yet? It's hard to say when I've only got very bare bones outline to go on, but this could potentially be veering off into tangent land.

The third part is back in the present and should feature all three characters equally … and hopefully an ending which is nowhere to be found.
I understand this is quite long winded and probably difficult to follow – any feedback would help.

It's almost impossible to comment on, actually. What is it you want help with? If it's just 'does this plot sound workable?' then... no one can answer that on the info you've provided, because that answer lies in the execution of the novel. Some plots that sound completely ridiculous can totally work, and some that sound really well structured and logical fall utterly flat. So if you want help to get past the wall, you'll need to get a bit more specific :)
 
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VeryBigBeard

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I think you can probably set one of those word count trackers to go off when a story starts getting stuck and it would go off right around 35,000 words. I bet someone smart with the codes could even get an algorithm going to do just that as a plug-in....

Anyway, this is pretty normal. A lot of people give up at this stage because it is this stage where writing becomes work. The first 10 to 15K words are fun and the world is just flowing out. Then problems rear out.

To some extent you have to give yourself some permission to write crap through the middle. I like to think of it like spinning wool--you've got this strand and every time you try and spin further it knots in a certain place and you have to cut it back and keep going. Sometimes you have to take a step back in the plot and try a different route. Don't be afraid to use different versions of files so you can experiment. It's easy to get locked into an outline and lose the distance required to see that what you're slogging away at might not be working.

The second place people give up a lot is in revisions because by golly the book's plot will look horrible when you write THE END. Plot is, at least at some level, structural. We could argue about just how much structure is required but basically you aren't going to see where it works and doesn't work, in its entirety, until you have all of it. Getting to the end will reveal why you put some details in subconsciously earlier. It reveals what was up that other path in the Woods of Plot that you did not take, and why it would have been better to take it. This isn't a bad thing. The people who stop and give up do so because they're afraid of stepping back and trying it differently. Try not to do that. It is OK to change what you've written. Some people do this as they write, some are religious about only diving back in afterwards. It doesn't matter where you are on that spectrum but when you're stuck it does help to remember that when we're writing we often lose the forest for the trees.

Versioning your files is your friend. Drafting and iteration is good. Try some stuff. Experiment. Tight writing can also forgive a lot of structural or stylistic sins.
 

Alma Matters

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Thanks for the words of encouragement Ash! To be honest, you’ve got me mulling over the idea of cutting Tom’s POV – seeing it in black and white it seems so obvious… forest for the trees and all that. His journey could come at the beginning of part three as the last thing from part one is his arrival.

Usher – there are a few things – this is probably just the thing that’s bugging me most at the minute.

The book would probably be labelled as a horror story and I’m worried that my supernatural element isn’t believable. Deep down I know this is silly – I read a lot of horror/fantasy myself and my enjoyment isn’t taken away by the fact that Orcs and Vampires don’t exist!

I think overall, I worry that what I’m writing isn’t engaging, the story isn’t working, that the characters aren’t interesting, that every word is terrible…

All joking aside – it’s a real struggle, I’m a natural worrier.
 

Alma Matters

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Kallithrix - plotting hell indeed!!

So, lets see if I can shine light into this black hole of a plot mess…

The place definitely acts fourth character (should have highlighted this) and pocketed throughout part one we do see glimpses of the malevolent force within this place.

Also, at the beginning of part one we see the relative (Tom's mother) from part two – but she dies early on – she wasn’t ever meant to, but that’s how the writing went and it felt right.

Claire stumbles upon this ‘bad place’ by chance but for Brian and Tom the decision to go is more of a conscious effort.

Part two, I imagine will be smaller that part one, and I do feel that there is sufficient interest in Brian and the place itself to make part two – about that place in the past and what happened – interesting for the reader (I know, that without an audience this is a ridiculous claim).

I think Tom is the real sticking point…

Part three is Good vs Bad - a showdown in the Bad Place with past and present coming together...

Does any of this help? Almost certainly not.

Sometimes it’s good just talking it through I guess.

VeryBigBeard - Thank you - some good advice to take away, I still feel like I'm finding my feet so all of this is useful.

"Get to the end...Get to the end... Get to the end..."
 
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Quinn_Inuit

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Thanks for the words of encouragement Ash! To be honest, you’ve got me mulling over the idea of cutting Tom’s POV – seeing it in black and white it seems so obvious… forest for the trees and all that. His journey could come at the beginning of part three as the last thing from part one is his arrival.

I recommend this course of action. Figuring out where a novel actually starts is extremely difficult. From what I can tell, almost nobody gets it right on the first try.
 

Alma Matters

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Thanks guys - all feedback much appriciated.

I'm worried I still have the dark night to come...
 

ishtar'sgate

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Having only written most of the first part here is my plan for the next two parts…

The second part is historical and only features one of the characters (Brian) and the relative of the other (Tom), lesser character from part one. Claire and Tom are not involved at all.

The third part is back in the present and should feature all three characters equally … and hopefully an ending which is nowhere to be found.
I really don't see a problem with this. Have you read either the Secret Keeper or the Forgotten Garden by Kate Morton? Maybe have a look if you haven't already read them to see how she manages it. The first one spans 80+ years. The other spans 100+ years. Some characters are related and some are not. Others only show up in certain years and not others.
 

TheWordsmith

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"...and, hopefully, an ending which is nowhere to be found."

Excuse me while I put my snark in the closet.

If you don't know where your story is going, how do you know how to get there? You only need to know two things about your story: The beginning and... Three! Three things. The beginning the middle and the... FOUR! Four things about your story. Beginning, Middle, End, and WHO...

See where I'm going with this? Your story will build as it progresses but, if you don't know where it's going, you run the risk of just wandering and wandering and...

You can find the journey first, or the people first; you may have come up with the dilemma, the hurdle for your characters to climb then wrapped the rest of the pieces around it. But, sooner or later, you are going to have to get them all together in the same 'room'. And if one is in Germany, another in Canada, and another in New Zealand, it's going to be difficult to get them altogether. The Kiwis will leave Christchurch and the Brandenburg Arch will be left to the tourists. The ones in Canada are at a hockey game and they're NOT leaving until this game is over!

So, how can you build your story when it's already falling apart on you?
 

Alma Matters

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Thanks guys.


I haven’t read either of those novels – will try and check them out!


I take your points Wordsmith – I should maybe have made a less flippant remark in my original post – but do think I should take some time to plot the ending.


My characters will be together and in the place they need to be by the end of part one. I know how act three will play out, there are just a few sticking points I’m not sure how to overcome at this moment. Does this help give an idea of where I’m at?
 

Jamesaritchie

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Now you know why I don't plot. I'd go nuts trying to make a novel go where you want this one to go.

The first part deals with the three characters and their separate lives. They come together ‘by chance’ in a particular location. Claire gets more screen time as she gets their first and the place is important.

Having only written most of the first part here is my plan for the next two parts…

The second part is historical and only features one of the characters (Brian) and the relative of the other (Tom), lesser character from part one. Claire and Tom are not involved at all.

The third part is back in the present and should feature all three characters equally … and hopefully an ending which is nowhere to be found.

Anything can be made to work, but this looks like a real challenge, to me. Having the second part feature only Brien seems an odd structure. I could understand it if each character had a section alone, and then a fourth part that brings them all together, but the way you have it seems disjointed.

I'm not sure what you mean by ""an ending which is nowhere to be found"? Do you mean you have no idea how the novel will end? This is normal for pansters, but not for someone who's plot ahead like you are.

Anything can be made to work wonderfully, though. It's also like shooting in the dark because I don't know what the story is. It's pretty much impossible to say anything for sure without know why these characters are doing what they do, what problems they're facing, why it matters that they come togetehr, why Brien gets a whole part two set in the past, what the ultimate goal is, and what stands in their way.
 

VeryBigBeard

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Rose Tremain said:
In the planning stage of a book, don't plan the ending. It has to be earned by all that will go before it. (source)

That quote has always meant a great deal to me. I don't bring it up as an appeal to authority--of course there are different methods and lots of people have lots of reasons to disagree with that advice.

I just happen to really like it. And I can tell the difference, as a reader, between an ending that was written to and an ending that evolved out of the story.
 

Jamesaritchie

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That quote has always meant a great deal to me. I don't bring it up as an appeal to authority--of course there are different methods and lots of people have lots of reasons to disagree with that advice.

I just happen to really like it. And I can tell the difference, as a reader, between an ending that was written to and an ending that evolved out of the story.

I can't say I've met many planners who think that way. None, that I can think of right now.

But one of the things I like about pansting, and never looking even a page ahead, is that I have no clue how a story will end until I write it.

I, too, can usually spot endings planned in advance, though it's usually more because of how the story is forced in that direction, than from the ending itself.
 
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