Question for Pantsers

Status
Not open for further replies.

neandermagnon

Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
7,272
Reaction score
9,338
Location
Dorset, UK
I didn't even know that "pants" was a verb before coming to this forum.

I also didn't know that any other writers wrote without plotting/outlining before starting. A certain teach yourself type of book made me feel like a total freak for years. (I ignored the book and all teach yourself books after that because I'd always written without an outline and done okay, and the issues with my early novels would not have been fixed by outlining them first*).

*the first novel had no paragraphs at all, for example. 7 exercise books full of text with not one single paragraph break. Which of course was just scratching the surface of what was wrong with it.

Anyway, it's kind of nice to know that I'm not alone and that the teach yourself book really was full of crap and that trusting my instincts was the right thing to do.
 

BethS

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
11,708
Reaction score
1,763
I think what James (and I) were referring to was rugcat's original comment: "If you're a true pantser, going back in the ms to fix continuity problems, foreshadow events, and even change some scenes is pretty much an inevitable consequence." We don't do this. So agree with you, there are a lot of ways, but not any one way means you are or are not a "true" pantser. That was the point.

Ah, context. Thanks.
 

Reziac

Resident Alien
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 20, 2010
Messages
7,451
Reaction score
1,177
Location
Brendansport, Sagitta IV
Website
www.offworldpress.com
What a bunch of pikers... I was well into Book FIVE before I realised that sometimes my MC drinks, to severe excess. Oh, that explains the apparently-anomalous binge back in Book One...

And then I had to go back and figure out why, and then retcon everything between.

Pants? I don't even have underwear!!
 

Emermouse

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
896
Reaction score
89
Age
38
Location
In America
Another proud pantster. I know I should probably be more of plotter, y'know, outline and all that, but every time I've tried, I feel like I'm giving a backrub to a porcupine. I can't help but approach writing much in the way I used to approach swimming, back when my family lived in a house with a pool. I discovered then on days when I knew the water was going to be cold, before summer really kicked in and warmed it up, that for me, the best way of dealing with the shock of the temperature was to accept that it's going to be cold and jump in from the deep end and get it over with, rather than wadding in slowly. Yeah, there's a bit of a shock, but you adjust pretty quick and before long, you barely feel the cold.
 

Kashmirgirl1976

Recouping My Lost Marbles
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Messages
195
Reaction score
6
Location
Southern California
I'm in Act 3 of my WIP's first draft and I just noted the changes I'll make come the second round. I think it's natural to change some things once revisions hit. (Another proud pantser, by the way.)
 

rwm4768

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
15,472
Reaction score
767
Location
Missouri
I'm in Act 3 of my WIP's first draft and I just noted the changes I'll make come the second round. I think it's natural to change some things once revisions hit. (Another proud pantser, by the way.)

But are you a true pantser? ;)
 

_Sian_

Ooooh, pretty lights and sirens :D
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
5,867
Reaction score
909
Location
Victoria, Aus
Website
antagonistsneeded.wordpress.com
Brackets. Brackets, brackets, brackets. I use them when I can't be bothered describing something

(describe main love interest's room here) or when I know something needs to happen, but I can't make myself write it (write the scene where they smartly break out of prison when you feel awake and smart again). I also use them for going back - so if I reach point five and realise, "Oh, I need a pigeon at point three for this to work" I both write (go back and put a pigeon in at point three), and if I feel like it won't derail me, I go back to point three and put (chuck a pigeon in here somewhere).

It stops the story from getting as messy as it would if I didn't write it down, but it keeps me moving forwards. I like it.
 

rwm4768

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
15,472
Reaction score
767
Location
Missouri
Brackets. Brackets, brackets, brackets. I use them when I can't be bothered describing something

(describe main love interest's room here) or when I know something needs to happen, but I can't make myself write it (write the scene where they smartly break out of prison when you feel awake and smart again). I also use them for going back - so if I reach point five and realise, "Oh, I need a pigeon at point three for this to work" I both write (go back and put a pigeon in at point three), and if I feel like it won't derail me, I go back to point three and put (chuck a pigeon in here somewhere).

It stops the story from getting as messy as it would if I didn't write it down, but it keeps me moving forwards. I like it.

That's an interesting method. If I try pantsing again, I might have to consider it. Right now, I'm leaning toward writing with a loose outline. I hate it. I like to have a plan, but I also love the joy of discovering the story as I write it. I'm trying to find a middle ground that appeals to both sides of me.

Of course, this doesn't surprise me. I'm one of those strange people who aren't left-brained or right-brained. I use both sides about equally.
 

rwm4768

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
15,472
Reaction score
767
Location
Missouri
That's not strange, that's normal. Our brain has two sides for a reason :)

I guess it would be more accurate to say I have relatively equal preference for both the logical and structured brain processes and the creative and spontaneous brain processes.

I'd forgotten that research has now shown that the whole left-brain/right-brain thing doesn't really exist.
 

neandermagnon

Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
7,272
Reaction score
9,338
Location
Dorset, UK
Brackets. Brackets, brackets, brackets. I use them when I can't be bothered describing something

(describe main love interest's room here) or when I know something needs to happen, but I can't make myself write it (write the scene where they smartly break out of prison when you feel awake and smart again). I also use them for going back - so if I reach point five and realise, "Oh, I need a pigeon at point three for this to work" I both write (go back and put a pigeon in at point three), and if I feel like it won't derail me, I go back to point three and put (chuck a pigeon in here somewhere).

It stops the story from getting as messy as it would if I didn't write it down, but it keeps me moving forwards. I like it.


I do this. Not extensively, but if I'm stuck on describing something and it's keeping me from moving on, I'll stick it in brackets just like this. Also, if I'm re-reading what I've written and don't like a word, phrase or sentence, but can't think what to replace it with, it goes in brackets.

I spend a lot of time rereading and doing minor edits, so when doing this I'll often replace things in brackets where I can (or sometimes I can't so it stays in brackets until the next time but eventually all the brackets go away).
 

IdrisG

the wicked wit of the west
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
207
Reaction score
18
Location
The Federation Starship Voyager
Brackets. Brackets, brackets, brackets. I use them when I can't be bothered describing something

(describe main love interest's room here) or when I know something needs to happen, but I can't make myself write it (write the scene where they smartly break out of prison when you feel awake and smart again). I also use them for going back - so if I reach point five and realise, "Oh, I need a pigeon at point three for this to work" I both write (go back and put a pigeon in at point three), and if I feel like it won't derail me, I go back to point three and put (chuck a pigeon in here somewhere).

It stops the story from getting as messy as it would if I didn't write it down, but it keeps me moving forwards. I like it.

This is my method as well. I write scene summary for events that need to happen but I don't feel up to writing yet and highlight them. Once I'm revising, I go through and make sure all the summaries have been replaced with completed scenes.
 

Isilya

Rogues, thieves, and knaves abound
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
555
Reaction score
91
Location
Ontario, Canada
Brackets. Brackets, brackets, brackets. I use them when I can't be bothered describing something

(describe main love interest's room here) or when I know something needs to happen, but I can't make myself write it (write the scene where they smartly break out of prison when you feel awake and smart again). I also use them for going back - so if I reach point five and realize, "Oh, I need a pigeon at point three for this to work" I both write (go back and put a pigeon in at point three), and if I feel like it won't derail me, I go back to point three and put (chuck a pigeon in here somewhere).

It stops the story from getting as messy as it would if I didn't write it down, but it keeps me moving forwards. I like it.
^This.
[tech] and [describe X] are the only way I complete my first drafts.
 

growingupblessings

Drinking lots of coffee
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
130
Reaction score
13
Location
Ohio
Hello! I just figured out that I am a pantser!!! Anyway, to answer your question, I just worked through my first novel, and I had a very similar experience. Inevitably, elements in the forming story would change the past. I would not just plow ahead though. I'd stop and go back and fix them, because I would never trust myself to remember where they were.
 

CaroGirl

Living the dream
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
8,368
Reaction score
2,327
Location
Bookstores
I guess I'm one of those lookback pantsers.

I begin writing knowing only the first scene, a main character or two, and where I want to end up. I mostly write sequentially, although it depends on the story. With the novel I'm working on now, I have a sequential main story from beginning to now, and then a break, and then a few disparate scenes that I didn't want to lose so I wrote the bones of them out. I'll connect to those when I get to them in the story. I revise as I go, and as part of getting ready to write, I review and revise the last scene or chapter before. If I have major changes to make, I make them up to the point I'm continuing from and go forward from there. No notes or comments or promises to go back later because I've already been back.

The consequence of working this way is that I have a pretty clean first draft, and I don't have to do much revising to get it into submission shape. A second draft and away it goes.

But it's interesting to see that other people's writing process can be so different from mine.
 

Reziac

Resident Alien
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 20, 2010
Messages
7,451
Reaction score
1,177
Location
Brendansport, Sagitta IV
Website
www.offworldpress.com
It occurs to me that a major reason why I never need to 'revise' is because having writ every scene when and where it occurs to me and with zero advance planning, there is no need to adjust some pre-existing framework, if only because it doesn't yet exist. The act of making the scene creates the framework, which then needs no revising because by definition, it fits the story.
 

Funaek

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
786
Reaction score
97
Brackets. Brackets, brackets, brackets. I use them when I can't be bothered describing something

(describe main love interest's room here) or when I know something needs to happen, but I can't make myself write it (write the scene where they smartly break out of prison when you feel awake and smart again). I also use them for going back - so if I reach point five and realise, "Oh, I need a pigeon at point three for this to work" I both write (go back and put a pigeon in at point three), and if I feel like it won't derail me, I go back to point three and put (chuck a pigeon in here somewhere).

It stops the story from getting as messy as it would if I didn't write it down, but it keeps me moving forwards. I like it.

Yup, I use brackets too. Then it's easy to search for them afterwards. A habit I've picked up from drafting non-fun legal documents at work.
 

Laer Carroll

Aerospace engineer turned writer
Super Member
Registered
Temp Ban
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
2,478
Reaction score
268
Location
Los Angeles
Website
LaerCarroll.com
I've written six books in improv mode. I've failed at three. The main difference was that I did or did not have an overall end goal. The end (very vague in all cases) kept me motivated & kept me from straying too far from the overall story arc.

I introduced a subplot or two in a couple of books. But I didn't get lost or depressed because I had a compass to guide me through the story forests.
 

rwm4768

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
15,472
Reaction score
767
Location
Missouri
I don't think I can do look-back pantsing. If I don't have some idea of where the story's going, I struggle to write it. In the one novel that I kind of pantsed, I knew the whole time where I needed the plot to go.

Maybe some people can write without some kind of framework, even if it's just a mental framework, but I'm not one of them.
 

Reziac

Resident Alien
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 20, 2010
Messages
7,451
Reaction score
1,177
Location
Brendansport, Sagitta IV
Website
www.offworldpress.com
Here's today's article by presentation guru Rick Altman (the guy who made PowerPoint respectable again), which has some points that might be useful to writers generally:

http://www.betterpresenting.com/editorial/busted/

[He uses 'writer' to mean what we'd call a 'pantser']

If you are an outliner…

You will take the traditional route of jotting down ideas and finding homes for them. You will compile main thoughts, developing sub-points, and watch the progression of ideas take shape. For many people and in many instances, sentences and paragraph get in the way; they tend to clutter your brain. You’ll worry about the actual words later–right now, you just want to capture ideas. Your brain is in total free-form mode and you completely indulge it with PowerPoint’s titles and levels of bullets.

In fact, you might have to start with something even more free-form than a bullet slide. Maybe you start with a legal pad or a cocktail napkin. Go right ahead–anything that lets you free-associate around an idea is a good thing.

When you are done, you should have a set of slides that reflects your story arc.

If you are a writer…

If you are most comfortable formulating your thoughts by writing in sentence and paragraph form, then by all means go right ahead. Put your hands on your keyboard and start banging out brilliance. As a writer, I know first-hand the thrill of getting into a creative groove during the process of fully-formed composition. I can get in that zone much more easily if I allow my thoughts to become sentences. If you’re like me, don’t let anyone tell you to start with bullet points. Don’t do it! You want to open your creative canal as wide as possible, and to do that, you write. You’re a writer; that’s what you do!

The comment response has some interesting points too, possibly useful to folks who get overwhelmed by their own ideas:

https://remotepossibilities.wordpre...-blur-firstframework-part-1m-presenting/3103/
 
Last edited:

BethS

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
11,708
Reaction score
1,763
I don't think I can do look-back pantsing.

I look forwards and backwards. When I get stuck, I especially look backwards, because what I've already written will contain the clues I'm looking for. And this may also mean backing up and going a different direction, though I've never had to back up more than one scene's worth.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.