groan Same-gendered character pronouns are such a PITA

Jamesaritchie · Jan 30, 2015

pandaponies said:
Warning: this whole post is basically one giant whinefest. I've had a lot of practice with this but it's still annoying and I just feel like shamelessly complaining about it and hopefully commiserating with some other writers, lol.

So I write a lot of lesbians ('cause, like, I am one). This means I end up writing A LOT of scenes with two characters of the same gender, and when I write in third person, their using the SAME FREAKING PRONOUNS means constantly having to think of clever ways of phrasing things to get around otherwise having to constantly use the two girls' names (or clumsy epithets like "the other girl," "the blonde," the whatever--I hate them all). It's soooo much easier in first person when it's very clear who is doing what because "she" always means not-the-narrator.

But sometimes a manuscript demands to be written in third person, dammit!

I wrote a novel with a heterosexual romance in it and was like, "F@$* yes, this is so easy! 'He' and 'she' whenever I want, no awkward name-overuse and no one's confused. PERFECT."

Of course this could easily be an annoyance with any scene heavily featuring two characters of the same gender (which is IMO different from just having a large cast, too, because repeating only two names is noticeable and weird whereas using a lot of names with a big group seems more normal/invisible). It just feels more annoying to me because it's never-ending. It's a particular hassle especially when there's a lot of ~touching~ and whatnot going on. SIGH.

Can anyone relate?!

It just takes practice, I think. I've read entire novels with a total cast of two men. I wrote a novel with a total cast of five men.

I understand the frustration. It's one more thing you have to think about continually.

Renee J · Jan 30, 2015

I might be doing this wrong, but I use the pronoun for the last character I name. For example, I'll mention Jane, then use pronouns for her. Then, when I need to mention the other character, I name Sally then use pronouns for Sally until we get back to Jane. Sometimes that means I'm naming the characters a lot, but I still end up using the pronouns.

Chasing the Horizon · Jan 30, 2015

The novel I'm currently editing has men in all three major roles. While I've had to clarify the pronoun issue a handful of times, I haven't really found it to be a problem. Part of that is probably because I'm not shy about using names, but I've also found in the past that excessive pronoun/name usage usually means there's too much action and reaction going on without stuff like thoughts and description that would break it up. It can also be a sign of POV filtering. Filter phrases like "he saw" and "she felt" add unnecessary pronouns/names.

Maybe none of this applies to your writing. They're just things I would look at if I found myself tripping over a scene with same-sex characters.

Viridian · Jan 30, 2015

I feel your pain, OP. I haven't come up with a solution yet, other than fastidiously watching my pronouns and doing the best I can.

My latest project is in first person. It's a glorious breath of fresh air. I don't like first person as much as third, but I'm seriously considering sticking to first person in the future.

pandaponies · Jan 30, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
It just takes practice, I think. I've read entire novels with a total cast of two men. I wrote a novel with a total cast of five men.

I understand the frustration. It's one more thing you have to think about continually.

Exactly!!

Hugs and cookies to everyone else feeling that pain.

Tamlyn · Jan 31, 2015

Definitely feel your pain. I discovered I was making all the people my (female) MC gets into conflict with were male so I could avoid confusing antecedents (I fixed that right away).

Fights are pretty much the same as sex scenes, right?

pandaponies · Jan 31, 2015

Tamlyn said:
Definitely feel your pain. I discovered I was making all the people my (female) MC gets into conflict with were male so I could avoid confusing antecedents (I fixed that right away).

Fights are pretty much the same as sex scenes, right?

Right, hah!

(*solemn, commiserative high five*)

Roxxsmom · Jan 31, 2015

I get frustrated by this too. I haven't written an in-depth same-sex love scene yet (though one is coming up in my WiP), but fight and conflict scenes where the two people are of the same gender creates the same issue.

I like to write kind of close third person limited, using the "write it like first-person without the I" approach.

Something like:

I stared at Bob. He'd always known how to read me, but hells if I was going to admit it.

Does not transition smoothly to:

Tom stared at Bob. He'd always known how to read him, but hells if he was going to admit it.

Very frustrating, because it's sometimes hard to recast passages like this in a way that keeps the tension and voice intact.

PandaMan · Jan 31, 2015

I feel for ya pandaponies. I struggle with pronouns all the time. I often find myself thinking, "geez, how hard can properly using a three letter word be?-" then I lean back in my chair and think - "yeah, sometimes pretty darn hard."

If you think about it though, most books probably have same gender dialogue and/or action scenes. There's plenty of properly written examples to learn from.

BethS said:
The POV character gets the pronoun. The other character is referred to by name. This is the way Jo Bourne handles it in her novels.

I keep this tip in mind when writing but I find it's much easier to say than to accomplish. Maybe it's because it's the way I structure my sentences. Practice, practice, practice. That's the key.

I struggle endlessly with pronouns, even when referring to other characters. Everyone has their own Mama and Papa and Grandma and Grandpa and it gets confusing who's being referred to. If I get confused, what's a reader to do? I know, I know, wall-banging here we come.

thethinker42 · Jan 31, 2015

I write A LOT of lesbian and gay romances, so...been there. It's really only in the sex scenes that it becomes a problem for me -- who just touched whose what with their what now?? For a long time, I wrote all my LGBT romances in first person, partly to avoid that and partly because first is just my natural voice. Then one of my co-authors dragged me kicking and screaming into a third person M/M romance, and I've been doing fine with it ever since (though first is still my default).

I'd recommend grabbing some romances written in third, and paying careful attention to how the scenes are written. Using actions instead of dialogue tags, staying deep in on character's POV, etc.

pandaponies · Jan 31, 2015

PandaMan said:
I keep this tip in mind when writing but I find it's much easier to say than to accomplish. Maybe it's because it's the way I structure my sentences. Practice, practice, practice. That's the key.

Yeah, see, Roxxsmom's brilliant example shows why that tip doesn't work at all as blanket advice/a simple solution, lol.

*hug circle for everyone posting*
I KNEW I COULDN'T BE ALONEEEEE

buz · Jan 31, 2015

I recently tried writing my first same-sex sex scene. (I just don't write much sex. So I've written a lot of "first" sex scenes lately. But anyway...)

And...yes. Guuuuuuhh. Her something went into her other something and she slammed her into a noun and her whatever verbed dramatically in anticipation of her verbing something upon her as a direct object grammatically--

Whatever. I wrote it, using names and pronouns willy-nilly. The really terrible part will come when I edit.

Luckily, the book is already terrible, so it will all fit in nicely. Yaaayyy

*has no advice*

Roxxsmom · Jan 31, 2015

With combat scenes, I sometimes get around the issue by examining whether or not I need to show the "blow by blow" or back and forth in quite as much detail.

He thrust. He parried and riposted, bringing his sword up under his guard and opening a furrow across his stomach. He cursed.

can become (This is awkward, probably, but it's just a crude example of a workaround).

The guardsman thrust, and Tom parried. Effortlessly. The man was an oaf. Easy as pie to get through his guard and slice the blade across his stomach. That got a curse.

The problem with more intimate scenes is that you really can't use monikers like "the guardsman" for the other person. Unless your sexual encounter is so depersonalized that your pov character actually thinks of her partner as "the blonde," or "the petite girl," or "the woman."

Another place where the analogy breaks down is that combat scenes are most often (and usually should be) short and sweet, while intimate scenes can go on for longer (in erotica, anyway).

That's where you'd have to use the proper name.

pandaponies · Jan 31, 2015

Exactly, Roxxsmom! I HATE epithets in love scenes (as you've said, unless the partner is a virtual stranger) and avoid them like the plague, lol.

buzhidao - 1. Ahahaha. I love you. 2. I've never seen you write anything terrible, so I'm unconvinced.

I'm sure you'll polish it right up.

Neegh · Jan 31, 2015

Names do pretty much become nearly invisible; and by phrasing the dialogue in ways where the reader pretty much can tell who is talking you can go quite a ways before having to use a dialogue tag.

Roxxsmom · Jan 31, 2015

pandaponies said:
Exactly, Roxxsmom! I HATE epithets in love scenes (as you've said, unless the partner is a virtual stranger) and avoid them like the plague, lol.

buzhidao - 1. Ahahaha. I love you. 2. I've never seen you write anything terrible, so I'm unconvinced. I'm sure you'll polish it right up.

I hate those descriptive monikers any time they violate pov. I just don't ever think of my mom as "the elderly woman," or my husband as "the balding but still-distinguished professor," even though a stranger might.

They make me think of this little video (8 minutes long, but well worth watching), about an omniscient pov gone rogue.

pandaponies · Feb 1, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
I hate those descriptive monikers any time they violate pov. I just don't ever think of my mom as "the elderly woman," or my husband as "the balding but still-distinguished professor," even though a stranger might.

They make me think of this little video (8 minutes long, but well worth watching), about an omniscient pov gone rogue.

Amen! And ROFL omg, I love Nick Offerman and had never seen that video before. Amazing. I love it.

"I'm seriously not picturing that!" But inside, he was. --> Dying. XD

BethS · Feb 1, 2015

PandaMan said:
I keep this tip in mind when writing but I find it's much easier to say than to accomplish.

Well, I never said it was easy.

Jo has mastered it. I just do the best I can and don't otherwise obsess over it.

groan Same-gendered character pronouns are such a PITA

Jamesaritchie

Renee J

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

Viridian

local good boy

pandaponies

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

Tamlyn

fish skeleton

pandaponies

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

PandaMan

Panda girls are the best!

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

pandaponies

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

buz

edits all posts at least four times

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

pandaponies

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

Neegh

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

pandaponies

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

BethS

*groan* Same-gendered character pronouns are such a PITA

Blowing in the Wind

local good boy

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

fish skeleton

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

Beastly Fido

Panda girls are the best!

Abnormal Romance Author

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

edits all posts at least four times

Beastly Fido

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

Beastly Fido

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

groan Same-gendered character pronouns are such a PITA