I have diabetes: my eyes go in and out. I've been typing by feel and hoping spell-check catches the fuck-ups. That was 'spose to be customs.
Jesus.
Issues With Getting It Right When Writing About A Certain Faction of Society...
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I have diabetes: my eyes go in and out. I've been typing by feel and hoping spell-check catches the fuck-ups. That was 'spose to be customs.
Jesus.
Is that really a problem? We talk about our Norwegian traditional costumes all the time in genealogy groups, interchangeably with traditional dress. (Not trying to be snarky, just honestly hadn't considered the word could be a negative.)
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Hey KTC--
It's great that you write about diverse characters in the first place and you obviously care about how people will take those characters. But I think you're overthinking it. No matter how much research or talking to a Sikh person or a First Nations person you do, another Sikh person may not recognize themselves in your portrayal. And that's fine. As long as your characters ring true in the world of your story and you don't rely on stereotypes or the easy pickings, you'll be trying to get it right.
For example, I've read stories taking place in New York and I think, "Umm...not the city I grew up in." Or I've read a couple of half-Asian/half-white characters (and even some bits and pieces of non-fiction by biracial people) that haven't been my views or experience of growing up biracial, but I guess they are what the author or the person either imagined or experienced.
It's great that you write about diverse characters in the first place and you obviously care about how people will take those characters. But I think you're overthinking it. No matter how much research or talking to a Sikh person or a First Nations person you do, another Sikh person may not recognize themselves in your portrayal. And that's fine. As long as your characters ring true in the world of your story and you don't rely on stereotypes or the easy pickings, you'll be trying to get it right.
For example, I've read stories taking place in New York and I think, "Umm...not the city I grew up in." Or I've read a couple of half-Asian/half-white characters (and even some bits and pieces of non-fiction by biracial people) that haven't been my views or experience of growing up biracial, but I guess they are what the author or the person either imagined or experienced.
It may be impossible to write anything without offending someone. Somebody, somewhere, will be offended by virtually anything you say or do or think or believe or feel.
I think as long as you're not using a condescending tone in your author's voice, or making it obvious you're trying to put some group down, then you're okay. If your heart is in the right place, I think you're fine.
I think as long as you're not using a condescending tone in your author's voice, or making it obvious you're trying to put some group down, then you're okay. If your heart is in the right place, I think you're fine.
We need more diverse characters, more diverse books, and when writers first venture into that territory, they will inevitably get some things wrong. If we're too hard on those writers (including ourselves as writers), we drive them away, and that would be a shame. Baby steps.
Ah. Gotcha. Sorry about that.
In the US, at least, where the word "costume" is generally associated with Halloween, yes. The strong association with offensive Halloween costumes is probably a big part of it. Here, "costume" implies "dressing up as something you are not", which is not the case with regalia and traditional clothing. "Costume" carries connotations of being a fake version of something else. It is an assumed identity rather than a true identity.
In places where "costume" has dramatically different connotations, I can understand why it might not be an issue.
To compare, I doubt Muslims would refer to a hijab as a "costume".
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And there's the thing - the US it may mean that for many and valid and varied reasons
But the US is not the world.
Here -- well it CAN mean that (fancy dress costume -- we tend to a lot less tbh, and when we do it's generally tarts and vicars...) but also other things -- a style of dress (maybe historical for say re-enactors, maybe not -- it could just as easily refer to traditional dress or what you're wearing on a night out)
I can't say anyone thinks of it as a bad thing. (With exceptions ofc.) That I am aware of anyway. I have not see anyone over this way say the word is problematic, only Stateside
But can we actually tailor our language so it fits everyone? One size fits all?
I'm starting to wonder. Obviously I wouldn't offend if I could avoid it, but a word such as costume isn't even going to ring a single bell in my head. Probably not for anyone I know (and they ain't all white by a long shot. It just does not mean the same here) Maybe it should bother me, maybe I should ask around...but then maybe I'll get lot of people asking me if I need to take my meds again
So...then what do I do?
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This is what surprised me about it. Not only in genealogy, but in sociology programs and travel programs, regardless of location, they readily interchange "traditional costume" with "traditional dress" and even "ceremonial costume" when referring to anything other than every day clothing. I understood it to be just normal useage. (And I live in the US, also)
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Native Americans mostly live in the US, and we are still only about 1% of the US population.
Our presence in the rest of the world is a rounding error.
There are enough Americans who assume we are extinct, so I don't doubt it's something many people in the rest of the world wouldn't bother worrying about.
I wouldn't call a Muslim hijab a costume.
I wouldn't call a Indian sari a costume.
I wouldn't call a Japanese kimono a costume.
I wouldn't call a Scottish or Irish kilt a costume.
So why would traditional Native American dress be a costume?
Maybe other cultures aren't bothered by it when their traditional and ceremonial dress are considered costumes, and that's fine for them, but it is offensive and disrespectful to us.
You may not
Many other people do
So, er who do I listen to? Them? The majority in my world? Or you?
Help me here. You or the people who will more likely read my book and not care because it does not involve Native Americans?
What words that innocuous here can I not use in a book that will never come out in the US?
IS there one size fits all?
I don't want to offend. Ever (eta except I could live with offending farrage and his ilk). But some words I need to use. Costume os a word as innocuous as milk, bread, worms here. Words that have no connotation here afaik and I have asked. A lot. . So I gotta draw the line somewhere dude, and I like you and respect what you are saying
But where you are and I are are different worlds. We use different (non offensive where we are) words to describe them. THose words that are non offensive may well be different
I hope you do not have a problem with that
Many other people do
So, er who do I listen to? Them? The majority in my world? Or you?
Help me here. You or the people who will more likely read my book and not care because it does not involve Native Americans?
What words that innocuous here can I not use in a book that will never come out in the US?
IS there one size fits all?
I don't want to offend. Ever (eta except I could live with offending farrage and his ilk). But some words I need to use. Costume os a word as innocuous as milk, bread, worms here. Words that have no connotation here afaik and I have asked. A lot. . So I gotta draw the line somewhere dude, and I like you and respect what you are saying
But where you are and I are are different worlds. We use different (non offensive where we are) words to describe them. THose words that are non offensive may well be different
I hope you do not have a problem with that
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Huh? If it doesn't concern Native Americans, then I don't understand your concern?
I was talking about Native Americans.
Edit: Though while I'm thinking of it... Say, for example, you walked up to a soldier in uniform, or a police officer, or a priest, or a rabbi, and you said "I like your costume". You don't think they'd be a bit offended bit that?
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Uh, no you included a lot of people who are not NA in your costume analogy
And nice cherry picking a quote and not bothering wit the rest
Look, I get where you are coming from, I get that you are *calms it down * peeved at certain things
But the US is not the world
Words mean other things in other places. Just because in the US they are bad does not mean the rest of the world cannot use
them
Faggot - in the UK this means a certain type meatball. Fag - a cigarette. Bum - scronge, ask for, ponce. Can I bum a fag? Can I scrounge a ciggie?
Should we all write in US English? Does every writer need to be aware of every US connotation of a word in the us, even if they are writing for another audience?
While I am aware this is not where you are going, it IS where it leads me. Costume is bad in the US. Ok. That does not mean it is off limits elsewhere
.
And nice cherry picking a quote and not bothering wit the rest
Look, I get where you are coming from, I get that you are *calms it down * peeved at certain things
But the US is not the world
Words mean other things in other places. Just because in the US they are bad does not mean the rest of the world cannot use
them
Faggot - in the UK this means a certain type meatball. Fag - a cigarette. Bum - scronge, ask for, ponce. Can I bum a fag? Can I scrounge a ciggie?
Should we all write in US English? Does every writer need to be aware of every US connotation of a word in the us, even if they are writing for another audience?
While I am aware this is not where you are going, it IS where it leads me. Costume is bad in the US. Ok. That does not mean it is off limits elsewhere
.
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Yes, based on my impression, and my interpretation of the word, I would not call them costumes. I don't know if it's offensive to them or not. I can't speak for them.
Edit: I also said earlier: "In places where 'costume' has dramatically different connotations, I can understand why it might not be an issue."
It seemed to boil down to that question, and answering that one seemed answer the rest.
I'm just saying our traditional clothing are not costumes. That is the grand totality of what I am saying.
I never said it was. But the original comment to which I replied was about Native Americans, so I answered from a Native American perspective.
I wouldn't say it's a bad word.
It's just a word that doesn't happen to apply to our traditional clothing and regalia.
Edit: A blog post on "The word 'costume' and American Indians".
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neither can I but you managed to try it with you list
Um, no.
And I have no problem with that. Only the equating it to every other culture. All culture are not equivalent. You equated to otter cultures with your list. The are not you, you are not them You may share stuff (sadly racism) but you are not them. Like I am not you
We are all different. And that there is the trouble, and the salvation
(Monty Python: I'm not)
Then I will not do so. But you have assumed a lot about other people in your list
And also about people who use a word you do not like
I respect you, Kuwi, I do. But there is a whole world out here, who use words differently, where costume is not offensive.
I cannot write my books for the whole world. I can do my best, but I cannot do that.
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Why not? It certainly wouldn't be offensive. It's part of the national or folk costume. You're choosing to do that based on your culture not to save anyone's feelings.
A sari or a hijab are different because they are still every day dress. A kilt isn't. I only see them in the street for special occasions. Kimono tends to occupy a similar status to the kilt but not always so not quite sure which side of that I would put it.
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I said what I would not call them.
Then I misunderstood the point of your questions.
I never said they were.
My understanding of the connotation of "costume" is "dressing up as something you are not", or "a mimicry of clothing worn by someone else".
I assume a woman wearing a sari or a hijab is not wearing them as a form of mimicry or play-acting. Is that assuming too much?
Once again, I didn't say I didn't like the word itself.
Uh, I never said the word "costume" itself is offensive. I said it is not applicable to our traditional clothing due to its connotations.
Umm... Okay?
Okay. Then obviously the word means something different over there than it does here.
Context is important. I am saying I wouldn't call them a costume based on the connotations of the word "costume" where I live. Like I said earlier, if it means something different over there, then okay, cool.
You think you can? I await with anticipation
dude, I do not want to argue with you. Really. Where you are and I are are different places that use different words, and do not like different words. That was my only point. The US is not the Uk is not...
That and I cannot write a book for the whole world. I'm not sure how that is noteworthy. It should be self evident. No book has ever been for the whole world. It shouldn't be a shock or anything
I am so pleased you need corroborating evidence as to how thing are to where I actually live
I feel validated
PS where the fuck is that Brit alert emoticon?
ETA Fine, I cannot find it. I am being so sarcastic your knicker elastic just broke. Will that do? It serves the same purpose as that emoticon
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Huh?
I don't want to argue with you either. I never said the US was the UK.
I said the word "costumes" is problematic in direct response to a comment about Native American "costumes".
(This was later shown to be a typo for "customs", but that's beside the point right now.)
Shadowwalker asked me why it was problematic, and I explained why it is problematic from my perspective, which is as a Native American in the US. I openly acknowledged that this was based on connotations in the US, and those connotations might be different in other places around the world.
I further tried to support this by describing how I personally would not call other traditional clothing "costumes" still based on those same connotations of the word "costume" and no others, with hopes that this might elucidate why it is offensive, from that perspective.
"Costume" is not the word for an Irish kilt, for example, where I am, from my understanding of the word "costume". If I were in Ireland, maybe that's what they would call traditional dress, and I would have to adapt to that local usage and culture. But that's not what I was talking about.
All of this was to explain my original comment of why "costume" is the wrong word to describe traditional Native American clothing. And if you are writing a novel with Native Americans, I would expect (hope) that Native Americans are part of the intended audience. Therefore, I think ours would be the proper perspective from which to approach the issue in that case.
I never asked you to do that. I don't understand why you think I did.
I feel like this whole disagreement is one big weird misunderstanding, and I'm utterly confused why you think I'm saying things that I don't think I said.
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Kind of like when my husband told me he was in vest, pants and suspenders and I thought he was in drag. Language varies.
This is absolutely NOT how it came across to me
There was a lot of other stuff too (which given as it is 2am I might leave till tomorrow)
But not how it came across at all to me and I will grant I am not Mrs Normal
See in the (my) am
I had thought the anaphora of "I wouldn't call" would get that across.
My mistake if I did not convey my thoughts properly. Sorry.
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This is why I try to avoid telling the truth when I'm writing. People never believe you.
re: meaning of 'costume' in the US.
Even that is over-reaching, I think. Where I come from, costume is not restricted to dressing as something you aren't, or Halloween. We have a lot of festivals around here, celebrating various heritage groups (Norwegians, Greeks, Italians, Irish, NA, etc etc). I have never heard anyone not refer to traditional "costumes". Now, 'regalia' typically does have a different connotation - as in 'overdone' or 'exaggerated'. But that's around here, so I would not tell someone it's seen that way "in the US". The US is a pretty big place, after all.
Even that is over-reaching, I think. Where I come from, costume is not restricted to dressing as something you aren't, or Halloween. We have a lot of festivals around here, celebrating various heritage groups (Norwegians, Greeks, Italians, Irish, NA, etc etc). I have never heard anyone not refer to traditional "costumes". Now, 'regalia' typically does have a different connotation - as in 'overdone' or 'exaggerated'. But that's around here, so I would not tell someone it's seen that way "in the US". The US is a pretty big place, after all.
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