Taboo subjects in a novel

greendragon · Feb 5, 2015

I'm not talking about social taboo - but publisher taboo.

My first novel ever is the story of my parents meeting and falling in love, and then parting before mom knew she was pregnant. It's set in the 1960s, in San Francisco, Spain, England, Scotland and Denmark. The secondary story - woven into the first - is me, 30 years later, searching for my father.

My publisher (who has already published my two travel books) likes the story, and has been very helpful along this road. However, she's a small company (her, her husband, and a handful of editors), and she's very worried about one big aspect of the book.

My parents met due to their involvement in the Church of Scientology.

They were both working for the church, and traveling to be part of the organization - thus the meeting in Europe, etc.

They are no longer in it by the end of the book, and I don't really say anything bad about the church, other than it is organized more like a business. It's a backdrop for the drama.

However, my publisher is very worried that, since Scientology is very lawsuit-happy, they might take offense and sue her company. I think that is a possibility, as they are rather mad.

She suggested re-writing it without Scientology, or submitting to another publisher; one a bit larger, with more clout to withstand an angry lawsuit.

I've re-written it as a fictitious corporation instead (Dramora Industries), but I was curious as to opinions about the whole thing from those with a bit more experience under their belt.

veinglory · Feb 5, 2015

I can understand your publisher's anxiety. Have you considered approaching a larger publisher who might have a different perspective and be able to assess and deal with legal ramifications more effectively?

cornflake · Feb 5, 2015

greendragon said:
I'm not talking about social taboo - but publisher taboo.

My first novel ever is the story of my parents meeting and falling in love, and then parting before mom knew she was pregnant. It's set in the 1960s, in San Francisco, Spain, England, Scotland and Denmark. The secondary story - woven into the first - is me, 30 years later, searching for my father.

My publisher (who has already published my two travel books) likes the story, and has been very helpful along this road. However, she's a small company (her, her husband, and a handful of editors), and she's very worried about one big aspect of the book.

My parents met due to their involvement in the Church of Scientology.

They were both working for the church, and traveling to be part of the organization - thus the meeting in Europe, etc.

They are no longer in it by the end of the book, and I don't really say anything bad about the church, other than it is organized more like a business. It's a backdrop for the drama.

However, my publisher is very worried that, since Scientology is very lawsuit-happy, they might take offense and sue her company. I think that is a possibility, as they are rather mad.

She suggested re-writing it without Scientology, or submitting to another publisher; one a bit larger, with more clout to withstand an angry lawsuit.

I've re-written it as a fictitious corporation instead (Dramora Industries), but I was curious as to opinions about the whole thing from those with a bit more experience under their belt.

I'm confused - you classify these as novels, but then talk about them as if they're memoirs or biographical things.

If they're novels and you're writing about Scientology, you're possibly asking for it, depending on how you depict the church. If they're not and you're writing about Scientology, you may or may not be?

Jamesaritchie · Feb 5, 2015

Being sued would probably be the best possible thing that could happen to the publisher, and to your book. The publicity alone would be worth millions.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Feb 5, 2015

I'm with corny - I think you need to clarify what this books is, fiction or non fiction. If it's a novel, I'd say remove any reference to scientology, which is indeed asking for it, and probably more hassle than it's worth.

If it's biography... I'd say you're even more asking for it, personally, because you're asserting that whatever you say about scientology is true, and they're not known for being keen on people exposing their practices, however seemingly neutral the tone of the piece is.

But this is all just my unqualified, unprofessional opinion. What you need to do is get some professional legal advice.

neandermagnon · Feb 5, 2015

If you've edited it to have a made-up name and changed all obviously identifying details, then can they still sue you?

beckethm · Feb 5, 2015

neandermagnon said:
If you've edited it to have a made-up name and changed all obviously identifying details, then can they still sue you?

Possibly. If the church somehow gets wind of the book and they see it as a thinly-veiled (and inaccurate) portrayal of their organization, they could bring a libel case just to be troublesome... er, I mean to defend their reputation.

The thing is, from the publisher's perspective, it doesn't matter whether the church has a winning case. The publisher still has to either mount a defense or settle. Even if the publisher is sure of prevailing on the merits, taking the case to trial means potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees and a multi-year process during which the publisher may not be able to sell the book. Settlement means, at the very least, removing the book from the market--and that's assuming the church is willing to forego damages for any books that might have been sold already.

I'm not saying the church would have a legitimate claim here, and I don't know whether the story can be changed in such a way as to avoid the threat of litigation. I'm only saying that I can see why a small publisher might not be willing to assume that risk.

JHFC · Feb 5, 2015

Even though every fiber of my being says "screw them," I would just change it. Unfortunate that we live in a world like that, but there's worse things in life than litigious idiots.

greendragon · Feb 5, 2015

It is a novelization of my parent's true love story - so, they names are changed to protect the innocent

greendragon · Feb 5, 2015

veinglory said:
I can understand your publisher's anxiety. Have you considered approaching a larger publisher who might have a different perspective and be able to assess and deal with legal ramifications more effectively?

My publisher actually suggested a different publisher that they work with, but they've not had open submissions for over a year. So, I reworked it and resubmitted it to my publisher (I asked her first if that was OK). We shall see.

Roxxsmom · Feb 5, 2015

beckethm said:
Possibly. If the church somehow gets wind of the book and they see it as a thinly-veiled (and inaccurate) portrayal of their organization, they could bring a libel case just to be troublesome... er, I mean to defend their reputation.

Has any religion ever successfully sued for unflattering portrayals of them or their tenets in books? Are they, in essence, trademarks like Coca Cola or Budweiser? The Catholic Church and Islam could be raking it in, since there have been many novels that have been critical of these (and other ones as well) religions over the years.

That is pretty sobering, because of course, even if the publisher wins the lawsuit, you can see how they would want to avoid the hassle and expense of defending themselves.

Though as JAR said, the publicity could be a good thing that more than pays for itself.

I suppose you could create a fictitious cult that's a bit like Scientology and have that be the backdrop for them instead. If it's being written as a novel (and not a real biography), then some departures from truth can certainly be acceptable. But it's weird that a religion would have to be genericized in this manner.

BenPanced · Feb 5, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
Has any religion ever successfully sued for unflattering portrayals of them or their tenets in books? Are they, in essence, trademarks like Coca Cola or Budweiser? The Catholic Church and Islam could be raking it in, since there have been many novels that have been critical of these (and other ones as well) religions over the years.

That is pretty sobering, because of course, even if the publisher wins the lawsuit, you can see how they would want to avoid the hassle and expense of defending themselves.

Though as JAR said, the publicity could be a good thing that more than pays for itself.

I suppose you could create a fictitious cult that's a bit like Scientology and have that be the backdrop for them instead. If it's being written as a novel (and not a real biography), then some departures from truth can certainly be acceptable. But it's weird that a religion would have to be genericized in this manner.

Notable lawsuits filed by Scientology, including a few libel/slander cases. Judgment is running close to 50/50 for/against.

Roxxsmom · Feb 5, 2015

BenPanced said:
Notable lawsuits filed by Scientology, including a few libel/slander cases. Judgment is running close to 50/50 for/against.

Some of those were simply over Scientology's right to be recognized as a religion (which I honestly have no argument with, though I think tax exemptions for religious organizations should come with certain stipulations, like said religion not be the front for an actual business that sells goods or services for actual profit). It looks like they have lost the cases in the US where they've sued magazines and newspapers for unflattering or critical articles. There have also been some cases against them because of practicing medicine without a license and making false claims about curing people and so on. I didn't see any novels on the list, but I only skimmed.

Have other religions sued authors for unflattering portrayals of them in works of fiction? Seems like someone writing a novel that mentions, say, the child molestation coverup with the Catholic Church, or if someone made a movie like Dogma, they could be sued.

If not, what makes Scientology different from other religions? Just that they actually choose to pursue lawsuits they know are frivolous, while other religions use different tactics against their detractors? Or do they have some special status that sets them apart from other religions.

Also, for a libel or slander suit to be settled favorably for the plaintiff, doesn't it have to demonstrate that A. The information presented is blatantly false (not just a matter of opinion or interpretation), and B. Be presented in deliberately bad faith.

cornflake · Feb 5, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
Has any religion ever successfully sued for unflattering portrayals of them or their tenets in books? Are they, in essence, trademarks like Coca Cola or Budweiser? The Catholic Church and Islam could be raking it in, since there have been many novels that have been critical of these (and other ones as well) religions over the years.

That is pretty sobering, because of course, even if the publisher wins the lawsuit, you can see how they would want to avoid the hassle and expense of defending themselves.

Though as JAR said, the publicity could be a good thing that more than pays for itself.

I suppose you could create a fictitious cult that's a bit like Scientology and have that be the backdrop for them instead. If it's being written as a novel (and not a real biography), then some departures from truth can certainly be acceptable. But it's weird that a religion would have to be genericized in this manner.

I don't recall the Holy See like, suing over that trashy Demi Moore Seventh Seal movie or any other religions really going to court over anything like that.

The fine folks at the esteemable Church of Scientology, however, are deep of pocket and quick to unleash the litigators, of which they employ/keep/breed/whatever, hundreds if not thousands.

Whether they win or not isn't as much the issue as how much it'll cost you to respond to the endless cascade of paperwork their fine, fine institution will generate.

Roxxsmom · Feb 5, 2015

cornflake said:
I don't recall the Holy See like, suing over that trashy Demi Moore Seventh Seal movie or any other religions really going to court over anything like that.

The fine folks at the esteemable Church of Scientology, however, are deep of pocket and quick to unleash the litigators, of which they employ/keep/breed/whatever, hundreds if not thousands.

Whether they win or not isn't as much the issue as how much it'll cost you to respond to the endless cascade of paperwork their fine, fine institution will generate.

It looks like they've employed this as a deliberate intimidation tactic. They've been slapped with some fines for frivolous lawsuits as a consequence, but 17k dollars here and there is probably not much of a deterrent to them.

Too bad there's not some sort of "boy who cried wolf" principle in our legal system, whereby some entity that has brought repeated lawsuits that are completely lacking in merit and clearly meant to harass or intimidate (as evidenced by written statements to this effect, as exist for the Church of Scientology), that they essentially lose the right to bring any new cases of this sort to court, at least for a given time period. I suppose it would be sticky, but it really seems like an abuse of our legal system.

benbradley · Feb 5, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
Being sued would probably be the best possible thing that could happen to the publisher, and to your book. The publicity alone would be worth millions.

Roxxsmom said:
Has any religion ever successfully sued for unflattering portrayals of them or their tenets in books? Are they, in essence, trademarks like Coca Cola or Budweiser?

The name Church Of Scientology is indeed trademarked.

Its teachings are about 98 percent secular, and the 2 percent of religion is Hubbard's science fiction about the Thetans from (literally) 40 trillion years ago, and only those in the highest eschelons of Scientology, who have received all the training and 'classes' are supposed to even know about it.

The Catholic Church and Islam could be raking it in, since there have been many novels that have been critical of these (and other ones as well) religions over the years.

That is pretty sobering, because of course, even if the publisher wins the lawsuit, you can see how they would want to avoid the hassle and expense of defending themselves.

Though as JAR said, the publicity could be a good thing that more than pays for itself.

If it were one and only one lawsuit, JAR would have a point. I read this Wikipedia article on CAN many years ago when it was much smaller (I had first read about CAN when I was reading books on cults in the early-mid 1990s, and I recall the item in the news in about 1997 when Scientology finally won one of its lawsuits (ISTR there were about 150 lawsuits filed), CAN had run out of money from defending itself, and Scientology ended up getting all the assetts (the 800 telephone numbers and all the files full of records of callers' names and addresses and what group they were worried about!), and renaming it the "New Cult Awareness Network." Ever since, callers are offered a "personality test" and whatever else Scientology gives for free (though you have to pay to read the results, which just happen to say you need to take some classes that they just happen to offer...):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_Awareness_Network

I suppose you could create a fictitious cult that's a bit like Scientology and have that be the backdrop for them instead. If it's being written as a novel (and not a real biography), then some departures from truth can certainly be acceptable. But it's weird that a religion would have to be genericized in this manner.

I might suggest this, thought the way the OP mentions this, that the main or only mention of Scientology is that the couple met there, this isn't saying anything bad about Scientology at all.

OTOH, it appears the publisher really has the heebee-jeebees about this. I think I'd change the name, even use the name of ANOTHER group such as est, but keep the details the same. Or if the publisher is still scared with that, invent a new name and invent details.

Roxxsmom said:
It looks like they've employed this as a deliberate intimidation tactic. They've been slapped with some fines for frivolous lawsuits as a consequence, but 17k dollars here and there is probably not much of a deterrent to them.

Too bad there's not some sort of "boy who cried wolf" principle in our legal system, whereby some entity that has brought repeated lawsuits that are completely lacking in merit and clearly meant to harass or intimidate (as evidenced by written statements to this effect, as exist for the Church of Scientology), that they essentially lose the right to bring any new cases of this sort to court, at least for a given time period. I suppose it would be sticky, but it really seems like an abuse of our legal system.

There IS something in the legal system on this, and it's called:
https://www.google.com/search?q=abuse+of+process

greendragon · Feb 6, 2015

cornflake said:
The fine folks at the esteemable Church of Scientology, however, are deep of pocket and quick to unleash the litigators, of which they employ/keep/breed/whatever, hundreds if not thousands.

Whether they win or not isn't as much the issue as how much it'll cost you to respond to the endless cascade of paperwork their fine, fine institution will generate.

Exactly this - it's what my publisher, small and shallow of pockets that they are, is so worried about.

As I said, I changed it to a corporation. The only thing it might connect with Scientology now is place. The place they meet is an estate in East Grinstead, England that was the Scientology headquarters for several years. Other than that, it is now the multinational conglomeration of Dramora Industries, which makes industrial dyes for carpets, car seats, etc.

Helix · Feb 6, 2015

greendragon said:
The only thing it might connect with Scientology now is place.

And this thread.

KarmaPolice · Feb 6, 2015

Hmm... makes me hope that at one stage, some multi-million selling author will write all about that fine organistation. And pretty much say 'bring it on!' Watch them go to court. In response, the writer can do a Kickstarter called 'help me bankrupt the bastards!' I'll chip in.

One thing I've learnt from life is that if you go around kicking people for long enough, you leave a long line of people wanting revenge. And this line has been growing for decades...

greendragon · Feb 6, 2015

Helix said:
And this thread.

True enough. But, in the end, the best defense for libel is truth. I say nothing in the novel that isn't a true fact. It existed, they both worked there at the time, they met, they had an affair, they parted. Afterwards, mom was transferred to another branch, she found out she was pregnant, and she raised me as a single mom. She eventually left the church, as did dad. 30 years later I found him, got them back together, and they got married on the Starship Enterprise in Las Vegas (her first marriage, his third) and they are living happily ever after. True story!

JHFC · Feb 6, 2015

As others have pointed out, the reason Scientology can be more litigious than other organizations is that it 1) cares more, and 2) indeed is a trademarked name.

So it is a bit different than say, Catholicism, which not only isn't trademarked (look up all the "Catholic" churches that have no allegiance to the pope), but also doesn't particularly care what your criticisms are.

KarmaPolice · Feb 6, 2015

Yes, they're litigious as hell. Here in the UK, they threatened an organisation to be snowed by a ton of legal letters after a pretty damning piece of journalism by them. In reply, the organisation pretty much said 'bring it on, matey!'. After the first 'attack wave' just stiffened the organisation's resolve, the 'church' called it off. So they can be beaten.

Only problem was the 'church' was picking a fight with the BBC. An organisation which could afford many more lawyers, had it's own means to air their point of view and is trusted by millions.

JHFC · Feb 6, 2015

I love to hear that there are those who stand up to them. But I totally understand how a publisher wouldn't be one of them.

I've heard before that most books never even make their advance back, so the publisher is taking a hell of a chance to add legal expenses on top of the money it already invested in printing the book.

ManInBlack · Feb 6, 2015

Unless you have a very good personal security team (not to mention, as has been discussed, legal team) I'd recommend just make it a fictional organization.

Robert Dawson · Feb 6, 2015

I am not a lawyer, but you could use a version of Anne Lamott's advice in Bird by Bird about avoiding lawsuits. As I remember it:

(1) Do not use the person's name, or anything publicly identifying. (Call it "The Church", capitalized. Do not mention thetans, SeaOrg, or clams.)

(2) Put in at least one made-up detail that they will not want to say "yes, that's me" to. (Lamott's advice: "Give him a teeny tiny penis.") Do mention Martians, a headquarters in an abandoned railway train, and sacred wombats.

(3) Usual disclaimer in the front of the book: "this is a work of fiction".

The theory is that Scientology (TM) is not going to go to court to say "look, a nutbar religion , it MUST be based on us." This does sound plausible.

Taboo subjects in a novel

greendragon

veinglory

volitare nequeo

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Jamesaritchie

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

neandermagnon

Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!

beckethm

JHFC

greendragon

greendragon

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world

greendragon

Helix

socially distancing

KarmaPolice

greendragon

JHFC

KarmaPolice

JHFC

ManInBlack

Robert Dawson

Getting The Hang Of It