Question for Pantsers

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AshleyEpidemic

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I'm pantsing my first full novel right now. When I think of something that needs to be changed I just change it and continue on. Fixing all that is for revisions and editing.

Actually, this happens with me even when I've plotted a novel. Things change and I go with the flow. Stopping to fix a change will only interrupt that flow.
 

Mr Flibble

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So I leave breadcrumbs on my WIP on things that needs to be changed.

My question is, do any of you pantsers do this?


All the time!

I leave myself notes in the relevant section (I use XXX this needs to change!XX) so I can use the find function on the XX after my draft to find what needs changing)

My best ideas come as I write, so it follows that if I have a brand spanking new supercool idea on page 200 it may require tweaking earlier to set it up*

If this is how you work, and it works for you, do it. Stop doing it when it does not work for you.

If I considered every page "done" when I got to the end, I would never finish a novel



* not always, but sometimes I need to tweak. Never say never, right?
 
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BenPanced

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I don't change what's already been written. If some new idea doesn't fit with the current story, it goes into my Idea File for some other story.
Same here, unless it's completely egregious or makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I might try to edit it in but if it doesn't fit, it's not going to fit; I can't force it in like one tries when doing a jigsaw puzzle with a rubber mallet ("I'LL MAKE IT FIT, GODDAMMIT!")
 
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mccardey

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Same here, unless it's completely egregious or makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I might try to edit it in but if it doesn't fit, it's not going to fit; I can't force it in like one tries when doing a jigsaw puzzle with a rubber mallet ("I'LL MAKE IT FIT, GODDAMMIT!")

But who's saying they do that? *goes back to read thread more closely*

Oh - nobody.

ETA: Shadowwalker, are you saying you don't edit at all? (Which is fine - I'm just wondering if that's what you're saying...)
 
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nastyjman

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It's interesting how everyone has their own way of writing. Some pantsers don't go back to make notes, some do, some edit as they go, some don't.

It's like a type of vehicle. Some like a Ferrari, some use a bike. In the end, each vehicle gets you to your destination.
 

shadowwalker

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ETA: Shadowwalker, are you saying you don't edit at all? (Which is fine - I'm just wondering if that's what you're saying...)

Absolutey not saying I don't edit. I edit/revise as I go, much as James does (though I have betas). When I finish the story, I'll run through to polish (SPaG), smooth out a rough phrase here and there, etc, but the story is otherwise done.
 

mccardey

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Absolutey not saying I don't edit. I edit/revise as I go, much as James does (though I have betas). When I finish the story, I'll run through to polish (SPaG), smooth out a rough phrase here and there, etc, but the story is otherwise done.

But you don't change your idea about any of the story, or the characters then? Does that mean you have a really loooong pre-writing phase? I spend a lot of time thinking and imagining before I start a book, but it still tends to deepen and clarify as I write it.*

I call myself a pantser because I don't work to a plot so much as work to the characters and theme. Perhaps that's why it takes me so long - which doesn't matter, because I enjoy it.

ETA: *or fall apart. That happens, sometimes ;)
 

Lena Hillbrand

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I've tried to be a plotter, because it makes revision so much easier for me (no 10 pg tangents to remove, no wondering if I even have a plot, etc). But when I make a detailed outline and force myself to stick to it, I don't enjoy writing at all. Which means it takes FOREVER to finish a novel. If I pants it, I can get through a rough draft pretty quickly, esp. if I'm 'in the zone.' When I've used a detailed outline, I only get in that groove when something unexpected happens and I go off the outline.
 

BethS

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I guess most of the pansters I know are false pansters. I don't know a one who routinely does any of this.

OK, hold on a minute. I'm a panster and I do this. So, you know at least one. And there's nothing "false" about the way I write. I don't use an outline, and I mostly write the story in order. But as it evolves, new dimensions will open up, and that sometimes involves going back to plant (or remove) foreshadowing, or to tweak something because I now know more about it than I did when I first wrote it, or to remove something that I thought was going to bear fruit but didn't.

These are usually small, easy fixes. I've never had to remove a character or a subplot.

But even if I had, that doesn't in any way make me, or anyone else, a "false" panster. Writing by the seat of the pants is by its very nature a fluid process, and that process is going to vary considerably from writer to writer. Heavens, I know a woman who writes these huge, complex novels completely without an outline and completely out of order, and having only the vaguest notion going in as to what's going to happen or how it's going to end. She writes a scene here, a scene there, and eventually the scenes begin to stick together in chunks, and the chunks start to form a storyline, and eventually she has a finished novel.

There really isn't just one way to do this, you know. There's your way, and there's everyone else's various ways, and the only ways that are invalid are the ones that don't produce a complete and coherent work.
 
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Putputt

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I pretty much do exactly that. :) I'm a half-pantser, half-outliner, as in I have a really rough outline for the first half of the book, then I have to go back and update the outline once I learn more about the characters and the world. When I write stuff that change the already written parts of the story, I either make a note of it then and there like [CHANGE THE PART ABOUT THE THING] or I note it down in a separate document. It works well for me since it lets me continue with the story without falling into the trap of editing as I go along. For me, editing as I go along is just a sure-fire way of not finishing the book.

But really, do whatever works for you. We all have different techniques. The one that works for you is the "correct" one.
 

Sedjet

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But as it evolves, new dimensions will open up, and that sometimes involves going back to plant (or remove) foreshadowing, or to tweak something because I now know more about it than I did when I first wrote it, or to remove something that I thought was going to bear fruit but didn't.

These are usually small, easy fixes. I've never had to remove a character or a subplot.

Yep, this is me too. I edit as I go as well, but new things always come up at some point, something I hadn't thought about before. I usually go back and add / remove straight away because I prefer to have a fairly finished and polished ms once I'm done.
 

Layla Nahar

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The problem is the term 'pantser'. It clearly means different things to different people. It does seem to be equally applied to two different approaches - one based purely on looking back, and one based on writing without adhering to a series of predetermined events. Here's where people seem to get argumentative.

In my case, I start writing with very little idea of the details of what's ahead, and I'm open to working with whatever presents itself. For example, when I started I had no idea that my MC would have a fight with his wife about infertility, but - as I was working on the previous scene, it occurred to me that that would be a very useful way to increase the tension and complicate things for my MC. Now, I got the idea that in this fight, she might call him by his full title. It would give that line a lot more meaning and impact if the reader knew that it was exactly his full title, and to make that happen I'd have to go back an insert the title into the text. But I still think that I am using a more spontaneous form of story composition than making up my story by determining the events of the story before I begin the writing of the text.

But since 'pantser' includes both those who only look back to write the story, and those who eschew determining the events before, and separate from, writing the text, it really is meaningless to say that one is a real pantser or not. Myself, I really like the term 'lookback' for the approach of considering only what has happened before to determine what happens now. (If you were publishing serially you'd of necessity be limited to that.) You can definitely say that not all pantsers are lookback writers.
 
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shadowwalker

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But you don't change your idea about any of the story, or the characters then? Does that mean you have a really loooong pre-writing phase? I spend a lot of time thinking and imagining before I start a book, but it still tends to deepen and clarify as I write it.*

Ideas and characters do change - but I don't allow those changes to contradict what already happened. Usually, those changes occur because of what happened. And no, i don't have a long pre-writing stage; I'm not sure I have more than a few minutes, and that's spent deciding if the idea has any real interest for me. Then I write the story.

OK, hold on a minute. I'm a panster and I do this. So, you know at least one. And there's nothing "false" about the way I write.
...
There really isn't just one way to do this, you know. There's your way, and there's everyone else's various ways, and the only ways that are invalid are the ones that don't produce a complete and coherent work.

I think what James (and I) were referring to was rugcat's original comment: "If you're a true pantser, going back in the ms to fix continuity problems, foreshadow events, and even change some scenes is pretty much an inevitable consequence." We don't do this. So agree with you, there are a lot of ways, but not any one way means you are or are not a "true" pantser. That was the point.
 

ash.y

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I've tried to be a plotter, because it makes revision so much easier for me (no 10 pg tangents to remove, no wondering if I even have a plot, etc). But when I make a detailed outline and force myself to stick to it, I don't enjoy writing at all. Which means it takes FOREVER to finish a novel. If I pants it, I can get through a rough draft pretty quickly, esp. if I'm 'in the zone.' When I've used a detailed outline, I only get in that groove when something unexpected happens and I go off the outline.

That's exactly the problem I have! I don't like pantsing the whole thing because the amount of revision that leads to is paralyzing. But over-plotting can be just as paralyzing.

My outlines are getting more and more basic, but interestingly, my characters get more and more pre-development. If the characters are clearer in my mind (particularly what motivates them) it's much easier to be flexible with the plot. Which is actually a good strategy for pantsers and plotters who wants to avoid major revision problems...know thy characters!

Also: I used to edit as I wrote...but I never finished those books! It's interesting how some people use that as best practices, but for others it's quicksand.
 

mccardey

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Ideas and characters do change - but I don't allow those changes to contradict what already happened. Usually, those changes occur because of what happened. And no, i don't have a long pre-writing stage; I'm not sure I have more than a few minutes, and that's spent deciding if the idea has any real interest for me. Then I write the story.

I wish I could do that. I'd have forty books to my name and be much more confident when people ask "Have I read one of your books?"

(I hate that question so much)
 

Mr Flibble

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Absolutey not saying I don't edit. I edit/revise as I go, much as James does (though I have betas). When I finish the story, I'll run through to polish (SPaG), smooth out a rough phrase here and there, etc, but the story is otherwise done.

I smooth as I go, and I read yesterday's work to get me into the frame of mind for today's

But will ALWAYS have an idea pat way through that will change things that happened previously (or at least change someone's feelings about it)

It almost never requires a major change

But it does require a change -- a tweak, a sentence added here, maybe another edited there

Nothing major. But a change/edit.

Or sometimes something comes to me -- a realisation. I am in copy edits atm and I just realised that something meeds a change - a continuity error that changes the tone of a scene


Needing to edit is not Bad. It IS What We Do.
 
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rwm4768

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On the one project, I pantsed, I found that I only made a few minor changes based on what came later. A lot of it came with worldbuilding and especially the magic. There were things I figured out as I went, and I had to make a few minor tweaks for the sake of consistency.

Of course, I don't know if a qualified as a "true pantser." Most of the time, I had a vague mental outline of where I wanted the story to go. I had Point A and Point Z, and then a few letters in between.
 

Roxxsmom

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I'm a pantser, because I generally just cannot see the solutions to the jams I'm throwing at my characters before I sit down and start writing. If I try to outline, I end up staring at a blank page that's more intimidating than just jumping in at chapter 1.

Sometimes I have to write past a place where I'm drawing a blank and come back to it. But usually when I'm near the end of a draft, I get a revelation about how things needed to go earlier, so I have to go back and change it after I finish. This can repeat infinitely. I'm still learning how to know when a story is really done and as good as I can make it. Betas help, but even so, I see all kinds of flaws they don't :( I never know when a doubt I have about something is that little voice that's trying to tell me something or if it's just my inner perfectionist and the part of me that doesn't want to let this story go.

Even though I'm querying my novel, it's really hard to stop it and accept that it's done, for good or for ill.
 
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dondomat

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I've tried to be a plotter, because it makes revision so much easier for me (no 10 pg tangents to remove, no wondering if I even have a plot, etc). But when I make a detailed outline and force myself to stick to it, I don't enjoy writing at all. ...

You must, you have to force yourself. And enjoyment doesn't come into it at all. It's a question of discipline and moral duty.

The west is getting too decadent, allowing pantsers to show themselves in public... Where's a Nixon when you need him? I remember when I was a student, we threw those pantsers in the fountain. So you don't like rigid, firm, structure, hm?

Bah, humbug.

I do find, however, a certain curiosity, especially after a few drinks. Maybe I should try pantsing just once. Just once doesn't make you a pantser, right?

But no one must ever know.
 
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mccardey

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I do find, however, a certain curiosity, especially after a few drinks. Maybe I should try pantsing just once. Just once doesn't make you a pantser, right?

That's how it starts, you see. A few drinks, and before you know it's pool tables, cigarettes, smack and pantsing.

And then you die. Heaping shame on your family.
 
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