The God thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

aruna

On a wing and a prayer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
12,862
Reaction score
2,846
Location
A Small Town in Germany
Website
www.sharonmaas.co.uk
I have a question to all those who believe that only the Christian God is real.

How do people who worship "other" gods (or no god) learn morality and ethics? Surely they should be wicked, and if they are very religious, as for instance Hindus are, they must be very wicked indeed.
 
Last edited:

reph

Fig of authority
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
5,160
Reaction score
971
Location
On a fig tree, presumably
Puddle Jumper said:
You've said you're not a Christian, right? I think you said that but I don't remember for sure.
That's correct, I'm not a Christian. I think I said I was raised without a religion and didn't acquire one later.
 

Mac H.

Board Visitor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
2,812
Reaction score
406
ColoradoGuy said:
Augustine had to explain why there was evil, but that there was only one God, yet He is good. Knotty problem.
It seems that this is an area modern evangelical Christianity seems to have bizarre views on.

When I read the Old Testament, I see the Hebrews believed in ONE God. While other religions had gods who did good and others who did evil, the Hebrews had only ONE God.

That meant that not only did all Good come from God, but also all evil.
When we read the book of Job, we see that not only did God cause the good things in Job's life, he also caused the pain and suffering. (There was another totally powerless character in the story who had no power to do anything)

Interestingly, modern Christianity seems to have locked onto the 'Good' part of God, but seem offended that evil and suffering can come from the same God. Some have even expanded the role of the powerless creature in the Job story to be a powerful demon called 'Satan'. Part of the teaching of the book of Job is clear - the other power (called 'Satan' or whatever) has NO POWER. It is GOD who caused all the evil suffering to happen to Job.

I'm also not sure why people would be surprised that humans can be selfish and hurtful, and want to know a paranormal reason why. Look at other animals - our behaviour is 100% in agreement with the rest of Creation.

Look at dogs in a pack - some can be hurtful, others can be kind, others can be both.

When humans are acting the same as other mammals, why should we be looking for a reason that applies ONLY to humans?

Mac
 

reph

Fig of authority
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
5,160
Reaction score
971
Location
On a fig tree, presumably
Mac H. said:
Interestingly, modern Christianity seems to have locked onto the 'Good' part of God, but seem offended that evil and suffering can come from the same God.
Would that explain why the same segment of Christianity insists that people are evil (sinful) when they're just going around being themselves? Has the locus of badness moved from God to humans?
 

fallenangelwriter

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
373
Reaction score
29
I don't buy original sin either, or rather, in a modified form. I don't see it as a BAD thing, exactly.

Adam and Eve, in the garden, weren't really human, not like modern humans anyway. they were supposed to be innocent, perfect, and eternal. essentially, as i understand it, perpetual children-- never changing, never maturing, never learning. they were free of what I view as the best traits of human-- ambition, curiosity, adventurousness. the will to learn and grow.

all children have to leave thier homes when they grow up, and gaining knowledge of good and evil required that Adam and Eve leave their home. sure, they lost some of the good things of the garden; they lsot some of their closeness with God. but God went from being someone with whom they spoke directly to a distant, spiritual protector.

the fall of adam and eve is what humanity as we know it to exist, and, for that matter, religion. without the fall, there could be no faith, no devotion. now, of couyrse, we have to recapture that rapport with God which Adam and Eve gave up, but as adults, not children.
 

ColoradoGuy

I've seen worse.
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 11, 2005
Messages
6,696
Reaction score
1,534
Location
The City Different
Website
www.chrisjohnsonmd.com
Puddle Jumper said:
Colorado Guy, you responded to reph, now could you answer my questions? I'll post them again.
I am pleased to do so: sorry for the delay. (I still owe my editor those two chapters by Friday.) Puddle, I will answer your questions about Quakerism as best I can, but keep in mind that Quakerism is an unruly faith, which is why it has had its own internal schisms over the centuries. This is partly because Friends of the silent meeting variety have no clergy or authoritative books to turn to for answers, but it is also because we believe that each Quaker can decide many things for himself. We do have many writings from early Quakers – George Fox, John Woolman, Robert Barclay, and others – to guide us, but these same founders of Quakerism would be disappointed in us if we were to use them as the ultimate voice of authority. So my answers are not Quaker Dogma; they are rather my interpretation of what most Quakers believe.
Do you believe sin even exists?
If you do, does everyone sin or are there people alive who are sinless?
And if you do, are you saying sin has just always existed and there was not ever a first sin?
Of course sin exists. People do bad things. That being said, I urge you to take Medievalist’s advice posted above and look up the definition of that word on his/her link: the first definitions all relate to disobeying God. It is only further down on the page that one sees the definition of sin as a bad act. So the word sin itself, in contrast to a word like crime, has clear religious overtones.

Quakers believe that people do bad acts not because of their fallen nature, but because they are not listening (or have never really met) their own Inner Light, their God within. To swipe a phrase from Abraham Lincoln (who of course was not a Quaker), they are not listening to “the better angels of their nature.”
what was Jesus's purpose?
I guess more specifically - who was/is Jesus to you? Why did He come?
The question of the nature of Jesus has divided Quakers in the past, and continues to do so to some extent. There was a total split in the 1820s that has only lately been healed. I come from the so-called “Hicksite” branch of the Quaker tree, named for a man named Hicks, who resisted the inroads into Quakerism of evangelical Christianity. Quakers like me would answer that Jesus came to show us an example of how to live in the Light, that he was a teacher. He was divine in the same sense that we all are divine. So yes, like you I believe that Jesus came to save us, just not in the same way that you mean that statement. He came as a teacher, telling us to find the God that is already within us. I believe that he would tell us not to venerate a book. I am quite sure that you will counter my statement by either asking me to cite you a Bible verse to support it or by citing verses that in your view contradict it. But you see, you use the Bible as your source for all things Christian. I do not. Aruna put her finger exactly on the key difference between us. You define Christian as someone who accepts the notion that the Bible is the arbiter of every question, the ultimate authority. Quakers like me do not accept that notion; we define a Christian as someone who lives his or her life according to the example of Christ’s life, using our own God within to tell us what that is. George Fox was quite clear on this. He once wrote to early Quakers discussing this very issue: “we know what Jesus and what Paul said, but what dost thou say?”You might say (have said, I believe) that such an attitude toward the Bible means that I am not a Christian. A Quaker might reply that, for example, endorsing war or capital punishment means that one is not a true Christian.

Quakerism might be seen as a recipe for chaos. After all, if everyone is following his or her own version of the Inner Light, doesn’t that lead to a sort of spiritual Babel? Quakers recognized this problem early and devised a sort of committee system to deal with it. When a Quaker feels deeply that something from within is an inspired connection with the God within, the Inner Light, this is called a leading. Before a Quaker accepts the leading, especially if it relates to an important matter, he or she tests the validity of that leading by discussing it with other members of the meeting in an encounter known as a clearness committee.

In fact, if a person wants to join a meeting, he or she must explain their leading to do so to a clearness committee of the meeting convened expressly for that purpose. (These are Friendly encounters, but the way; we are always looking for new Quakers, since there are only about 200,000 in the USA.) The language about becoming a Quaker is also telling, and it dates from the 17th century: a new Quaker is not said to be converted, but rather convinced. He or she becomes convinced by heeding their God within.

A final footnote: there is another centuries-old Quaker expression besides “I hear you, Friend” that has entered everyday language. “Speaking truth to power” is what Quakers said that they were doing nearly 400 years ago.

Puddle, I hope that this answers many of your questions. Other readers, thanks for your patience.
 
Last edited:

Sassenach

5 W's & an H
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
2,199
Reaction score
339
Location
Southern Calif.
Puddle Jumper said:
Christianity is not just some feel-good religion. The Bible says that by becoming a Christian our life will actually become tougher. More people will persecute us because of our faith. Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble." It is a serious commitment. If a Christian does not experience any hardship in life, then they should be seriously questioning if they are a Christian or not.

Maybe if you live in Afghanistan. I don't think most American Christians suffer persecution.

In any case, who doesn't experience hardship in life? That's something virtually every human being shares, regardless of religion.
 

Deleted member 42

aruna said:
I have a question to all those who believe that only the Christian God is real.

How do people who worship "other" gods (or no god) learn morality and ethics? Surely they should be wicked, and if they are very religious, as for instance Hindus are, they must be very wicked indeed.

You've just hit upon the reasons the Catholic church developed the concepts of limbo and purgatory, both now discredited.

It seemed wrong to early church leaders that good pagans--of which there were many--and good Jews--of which there were many--should be damned to Hell for eternity.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Deleted member 42

ColoradoGuy said:
And I was referring to the the incredible density and richness of rabbinic biblical exegesis. Those guys can argue for days and write dense texts about the meaning of a single word.

But Rabi Acheva says . . . ;)
 

Peggy

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 24, 2005
Messages
1,456
Reaction score
175
Location
Basking in the sun.
Website
thoughtsontheroad.blogspot.com
Puddle Jumper said:
Christianity is not just some feel-good religion. The Bible says that by becoming a Christian our life will actually become tougher. More people will persecute us because of our faith. Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble."
That explains something that has puzzled me : why some evangelical preachers who go on and on about American Christians being persecuted. As far as I can tell, the only persecution they are actually experienceing is not getting their way in all things all the time (no teacher-lead prayer in schools? persecution! no goverment paid-for creche scene? persecution! not able to build a megachurch anywhere they please? persecution! ). But if part of their beliefs require that anyone of the Christian faith WILL be persecuted, it's no wonder that they go desperately looking for it. It really really bothers me that they say such things, trivializing the real persecution Christians suffer in countries like Afghanistan and China.
 

William Haskins

poet
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
29,099
Reaction score
8,848
Age
58
Website
www.poisonpen.net
martyrdom is central to christianity. always has been, for obvious reasons.

the religion would be a quite different animal if jesus had died of natural causes at the age of 72, yes?
 

aruna

On a wing and a prayer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
12,862
Reaction score
2,846
Location
A Small Town in Germany
Website
www.sharonmaas.co.uk
I think another word for what you are saying, Colorado Guy, is simply conscience. It's obvious that some people do need a written rulebook so as to know what to do. Others have a strong conscience, a strong internal, guiding voice, and know what's right and wrong almost instinctively. They simply cannot act in a way contrary to their conscience, and don't need the threat of damnation and hell to do good. I think that is an instance of "God within us" as taught by the Quakers and other introspective religions. It's not even necessary to believe in God - atheists and agnostics can have a highly developed conscience, which is part of the very reason why they reject the orthodox Christian teachings.
Swami Vivekananda, a well known late 19th century Hindu authority (he represented Hinduism at the World Conference of Religions and spoke so well he became famous overnight!) once said "It's good to born within a religion, but not to die within one." Meaning, that a religion can help us at first to find our way, but once we have developed far enough we don't need the outer structure.
That of course contradicts everything the Christians here are saying!

I'd like to add, by the way - because a couple of people on another thread were mistaken in this - that I'm not from a Hindu background and don't have a drop of Indian blood. At the age of 18 I went searching for something that satisfied me both intellectually and emotionally, and found it in Vedanta.
 
Last edited:

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
6,817
Reaction score
2,975
aruna said:
But I told you, there are NOT a multiple of deities! I have lived in India, I know the people, and they are NOT worshipping several gods. Read the Hindu scriptures: you will see that it is not so. There is ONE God, oonly ONE; and blieve it or not, that God (who can be worshiopped in any way the worshipper chooses, as father, Mother, Friend, Master, Lover) is exactly the same God that you worship.
Oh, I agree with you entirely that the belief SYSTEM is different - I've never tried to prove that these are the same. But in Hinduism, just as in Christianity,

....It's about grace, and the love-gift of God.

Exactly! This is what I've been saying all along: Hinduism comes down to exactly that: Grace, and the love of God.
That's what you've been saying, but if you read carefully, that's not what I said. I said "grace and the love-GIFT of God"--who is Jesus Christ. "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16). What I'm saying is that the God of the Bible cannot be the same as the Hindu Brahman, in that the God of the Bible makes claims that are incompatible with Brahman and/or Hinduism--eg. the way of salvation: works, knowledge, and devotion in Hinduism; in Biblical Christianity, "It is by the name of Jesus Christ...Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:10-12)..."for it is by grace you are saved, and not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8, 9).
 
Last edited:

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,705
Reaction score
1,336
Location
Where the Wild Things Are
Website
www.christine-norris.com
Spirituality is innate; religion is created by man.

That's all I have to say, really. Personally I abide by the Buddhist philosophy of letting other people be who they are and believe how they want. As long as they aren't hurting other people, things are what they are, not what we want them to be.

If you believe in God, so be it. If your god's name is Allah or Buddah or Brahman or whatever, that's cool too. I can only be responsible for myself and the shaping of my children (and sometimes my spouse, but I make no promises), although I can only guide him. He's free to be his own person as well.

It's a very low-stress way to live.
 
Last edited:

brokenfingers

Walkin' That Road
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
6,072
Reaction score
4,324
One of the biggest turn-offs of the man-made construct we call religion, is the exclusionary aspect of it:

"No, we are not the same you and I. Our gods are not the same. My God is the real God and the only God and I know the secret and hold the key to Heaven. You are doomed - unless you agree with me."

Not to mention the close-mindedness it engenders. People believe they know the answer and shut their minds closed to any other opinion or facet of the same truth...
 

Puddle Jumper

aruna said:
I have a question to all those who believe that only the Christian God is real.

How do people who worship "other" gods (or no god) learn morality and ethics? Surely they should be wicked, and if they are very religious, as for instance Hindus are, they must be very wicked indeed.
:Huh:

I know of no verse or passage in the Bible that says morality and ethics are only found in those who obey God. Even the New Testament says that good deeds without faith is dead, meaning humans are quite capable of doing good (showing morality and ethics) without being a Christian. Why you assume Christians think otherwise is beyond me.

Christian teaching is that good deeds can not get you into heaven. Because that would mean our salvation is dependent upon us when in fact salvation is totally dependent upon Christ's sacrifice on the cross, something Jesus did for us that we can not earn through good deeds nor ever deserve. Which is why Christianity is so hard to swallow for so many people in the world who reject Jesus. It takes total humility. It's admitting to God, "It is impossible for me to save myself, all my good deeds in life can not erase the sins I'm guilty of, I can only be saved by the sacrifice Jesus made to die in my place for my sins. The only verdict for my sins is death, there is no pardon for them. Jesus chose to die in my place so that I might live."

This is why Christianity is so hard for people to accept. You have to be able to admit you are guilty and do not have the strength or power to save yourself and can only be saved by letting an innocent man die in your place. That's what Jesus did - He took our place on death row. He was innocent, the only man ever to be born into this world and never be guilty of sin, so by rights He would not die. He gave up His life to die in our place. And it is a very hard teaching to swallow.

Mac H. said:
Interestingly, modern Christianity seems to have locked onto the 'Good' part of God, but seem offended that evil and suffering can come from the same God. Some have even expanded the role of the powerless creature in the Job story to be a powerful demon called 'Satan'. Part of the teaching of the book of Job is clear - the other power (called 'Satan' or whatever) has NO POWER. It is GOD who caused all the evil suffering to happen to Job.
God is not evil. But God did create evil because it has a purpose. And I'm a Christian.

Think of God as a fictional novelist. You do not write a novel with no conflict. You don't write a novel where everybody is perfect and every situation is perfect, and no one ever makes a mistake and no one ever gets their feelings hurt or thinks about revenge, or gets angry, etc... You don't do that, no one would read it, it would be boring and lifeless. A good author creates conflict and adds evil into the story. Writing evil in will challenge the heroes of the story, and we'll cheer when they overcome great obstacles in their journey because we want to see them reach their goal.

Sometimes I think angels watch us like we watch a movie or read a book. Wondering where the author is going to take the story next.

Colorado Guy said:
Of course sin exists. People do bad things. That being said, I urge you to take Medievalist’s advice posted above and look up the definition of that word on his/her link: the first definitions all relate to disobeying God. It is only further down on the page that one sees the definition of sin as a bad act. So the word sin itself, in contrast to a word like crime, has clear religious overtones.

Quakers believe that people do bad acts not because of their fallen nature, but because they are not listening (or have never really met) their own Inner Light, their God within. To swipe a phrase from Abraham Lincoln (who of course was not a Quaker), they are not listening to “the better angels of their nature.”
Do Quakers use a Bible? If Quakers profess to be Christianity (which I've always assumed they do) then their definition of the word sin would have to come from the Bible, or more specifically the Law given to the Israelites through Moses. That's all the Old Testament Law is - telling us what sin is.

Let's look at the 10 Commandments. Specifically at this one...

Do not lie - are you saying you've never in your life told a lie, even a little one? It doesnt' say "do not lie to God." It simply says, "do not lie." That means to everyone. That means if your mom asked you if you made your bed as a kid and you say you did but didn't, you lied. If you told her you washed your hands when you didn't, that's a lie. When you're asked if you know what happened but don't want to get in trouble and say, "I don't know," that's a lie.

I told lies all the time like that when I was a kid to keep from getting into trouble. It's something children do all the time. So are children sinners? Yes. More children show a mean-spirited nature against another child than adults do against anyone. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Just to tell one lie ever makes you a sinner. There's no such thing as a "little white lie" in God's eyes. A lie is a lie and a lie is sin and all sin leads to death and death can only be defeated by Jesus.

So I guess this is where I also don't quite understand your viewpoint. How can a Quaker say what sin is if they don't rely on the Bible? Just because you feel it? No offense, that sounds like New Age religion.

Colorado Guy said:
Quakers like me would answer that Jesus came to show us an example of how to live in the Light, that he was a teacher.
And I agree that He was that.

Colorado Guy said:
He was divine in the same sense that we all are divine.
I disagree with that. How do you define "divine?"

Colorado Guy said:
He came as a teacher, telling us to find the God that is already within us.
Now that sounds more like Mormonism. And aside from wanting to shout out the word that first came into my head when I read that statement, what is your grounds for believing this about Jesus? Bottom line, you wouldn't know anything about what Jesus taught if not for the Bible, so how can you accept what He taught but reject what the Bible says about why He came and who He was and who we are (namely in reference and comparison to God and Christ)?

Colorado Guy said:
I believe that he would tell us not to venerate a book.
Jesus frequently in His teachings referred to the written word.

Colorado Guy said:
You define Christian as someone who accepts the notion that the Bible is the arbiter of every question, the ultimate authority. Quakers like me do not accept that notion; we define a Christian as someone who lives his or her life according to the example of Christ’s life, using our own God within to tell us what that is.
Sounds like pluralism when you say "using our own God within us." But it brings me back to the question, if not for the Bible how would you have a basis for your faith? And if you use only the parts of the Bible which appeal to you to base your faith upon and not other parts denying its authority, does that not come across as a weak base and defense for you?

You seem to pick and choose things in the Bible that you agree with but dismiss the rest, because if you did accept it all you would be accepting it's authority and arbiter on every issue. This sends up big red flags to me on things the Bible warns against. The Bible warns very much against this kind of religion.

You say that Jesus is a good teacher but seem to deny Him as savior. Do you have another historical record of Jesus that counters the Bible to base this belief on?

C.S. Lewis touched on this topic. He said that Jesus was one of the three L's. Either He was a Lunatic, a Liar, or the Lord. If He was a Lunatic, you can't accept anything He said as truth or good. If He was a Liar, then all His teachings were lies. If He was the Lord, is the Lord, that means everything He said was true including our staus of being lost sinners and our only hope being through His death and resurrection. To deny that is to deny that He was Lord.

And this goes back to why Christianity is so hard for so many people to accept. Because you have to come face to face with just how fallen a sinner you are. And the Bible clearly states without that recogintion of your own condition, you can't accept Jesus for who He truly is. It's holding onto a pride to think "I'm not as bad as Jesus said I was. I can get to Heaven on my own."

Colorado Guy said:
Quakerism might be seen as a recipe for chaos.
Yeah, just a little.

Colorado Guy said:
When a Quaker feels deeply that something from within is an inspired connection with the God within, the Inner Light, this is called a leading. Before a Quaker accepts the leading, especially if it relates to an important matter, he or she tests the validity of that leading by discussing it with other members of the meeting in an encounter known as a clearness committee.

In fact, if a person wants to join a meeting, he or she must explain their leading to do so to a clearness committee of the meeting convened expressly for that purpose.

That actually sounds a bit scary to me because that sounds an awful lot like a cult I've heard about. Which I'm not saying that Quakers are a cult, I'm just saying that sounds an awful lot like a cult I've heard about.

Sassenach said:
Maybe if you live in Afghanistan. I don't think most American Christians suffer persecution.
Yeah, that's a serious understatement. I think there are different levels of persecution. But for a Christian living in Afghanistan, that kind of persecution could lead to their death. Christians in America aren't concerned about being killed for their faith. At least most aren't.

Medievalist said:
You've just hit upon the reasons the Catholic church developed the concepts of limbo and purgatory, both now discredited.
Well I didn't know "limbo" was a catholic term, but I was under the impression that catholics still believed in purgatory.

Peggy said:
That explains something that has puzzled me : why some evangelical preachers who go on and on about American Christians being persecuted.
There's a difference between perseuction and pushing people around in an unloving way and thinking their negative reaction is persecution. I've never felt persecuted really, except for maybe on message boards such as this one. ;)

Peggy said:
But if part of their beliefs require that anyone of the Christian faith WILL be persecuted, it's no wonder that they go desperately looking for it. It really really bothers me that they say such things, trivializing the real persecution Christians suffer in countries like Afghanistan and China.
Okay, I quoted Jesus saying, "you will have trouble." Not, "you will be persecuted."

All Christians who are true to their faith will have trouble because of it. I remember in High School wearing a Christian t-shirt one day and a couple guys walking behind me were making fun of what my shirt said. If they started pushing me around and getting violent about it, then I'd call it persecution. As it was, they were just giving me trouble about it.

I'm not sure this is a place to go into a Bible study on the topic. It's a really cool Bible study that looks at the Beattitudes as a progression of faith which states that persecution only comes to the Christian who has reached a high level of maturity in Christ. These are not Christians who act like jerks to people and therefore only get what they deserve by negative reactions. These are people whose behavior and attitude reflect Christ and are suffering true persecution for the sake of Christ.

Again, there's a difference between being persecuted for Christ and getting feedback you deserve because you were a jerk.

aruna said:
I think another word for what you are saying, Colorado Guy, is simply conscience. It's obvious that some people do need a written rulebook so as to know what to do. Others have a strong conscience, a strong internal, guiding voice, and know what's right and wrong almost instinctively. They simply cannot act in a way contrary to their conscience, and don't need the threat of damnation and hell to do good. I think that is an instance of "God within us" as taught by the Quakers and other introspective religions.
I would not be able to recognize the voice of Christ within me if not for my knowledge of Him obtained through scripture. Do I hear His voice in me? Yes, daily. It's His voice in me that says, "Don't say what you're thinking to that person, you're reacting in anger, do not let that sin escape your lips." Or, "Say this to that person, it'll make their day." Or my favorite, "I love you." It is a voice I can clearly discern from my own thoughts, because it's calm, it's quiet, and it's truth. And I know it's truth because I know the Bible.
 

aruna

On a wing and a prayer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
12,862
Reaction score
2,846
Location
A Small Town in Germany
Website
www.sharonmaas.co.uk
I see that there is really no point, as you argue with the Bible, whereas I - and many extremely sincere practicing Christians I know - do not accept the Bible as hard and fast literal truth. I beileve that God is bigger and far more generous than you would have him, and accepts each one's devotion according to its own merit, whetehr he/she call him/herself Christian, Hindu, Jew or Jain. We will have to agree to disagree.

pb10220 said:
for it is by grace you are saved, and not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8, 9).

Yes, Hindus too believe that salvation comes not through effort but by grace.
 
Last edited:

brokenfingers

Walkin' That Road
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
6,072
Reaction score
4,324
Aruna, read my post above. People like that refuse to believe any truth but their own.


That is why so many people find organized religion in this world so reprehensible. Intolerance and the capacity to quickly pass judgment.

The propensity to divide the world into Us and Them. And from there it's only a small step to Us and those against us.

History has shown us this time and time again...
 

reph

Fig of authority
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
5,160
Reaction score
971
Location
On a fig tree, presumably
Puddle Jumper said:
I told lies all the time like that when I was a kid to keep from getting into trouble. It's something children do all the time. So are children sinners? Yes. ... A lie is a lie and a lie is sin and all sin leads to death and death can only be defeated by Jesus.
Well, Puddle, that's an unfavorable view of children. I told exactly one lie as a kid, and it was only half a lie (because what I said had a double meaning, and the other half was true), and I was only three years old. Do you really think that was a capital crime? Would justice require my execution? Am I supposed to believe I'm a terrible person?

In another post, you said you'd become a Christian at age 12. Honestly, I don't think your faith has matured since then. Most adults have moved beyond such black-and-white judgments.
 

aruna

On a wing and a prayer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
12,862
Reaction score
2,846
Location
A Small Town in Germany
Website
www.sharonmaas.co.uk
brokenfingers said:
Aruna, read my post above. People like that refuse to believe any truth but their own.


That is why so many people find organized religion in this world so reprehensible. Intolerance and the capacity to quickly pass judgment.

The propensity to divide the world into Us and Them. And from there it's only a small step to Us and those against us.

History has shown us this time and time again...


Yes, it's actually quite amusing! Hordes of very worthwhile people turn away from Christianity mostly because of the "my way or the highway" attitude - my parents were among them.

Christianity is so divided among itself that it a farce. It is divisive and exclusionary. Thank goodness, though, there ARE other Christians, who understand the allegorical nature of the Bible.
 

aruna

On a wing and a prayer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
12,862
Reaction score
2,846
Location
A Small Town in Germany
Website
www.sharonmaas.co.uk
Puddle Jumper said:
:Huh:

I know of no verse or passage in the Bible that says morality and ethics are only found in those who obey God. Even the New Testament says that good deeds without faith is dead, meaning humans are quite capable of doing good (showing morality and ethics) without being a Christian. Why you assume Christians think otherwise is beyond me.

.
However, I am referring specifically to those who worship, in your eyes, "other gods", those other gods being, I suppose, the Devil. If they worship the Devil surely they would be prompted to do evil.
 

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,705
Reaction score
1,336
Location
Where the Wild Things Are
Website
www.christine-norris.com
The Devil is an exclusively Christian creation. So, if I'm not a Christian, then I don't believe in the Devil, do I??

I agree with brokenfingers - it's the whole "I'm right, you're wrong, see it my way NOW" attitutde that many Christians have that turns me off from religion in general. I worship my way, my time. I'm a good person, I don't intentionally hurt people.

I think that's the way it should be.
 
Last edited:

aruna

On a wing and a prayer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
12,862
Reaction score
2,846
Location
A Small Town in Germany
Website
www.sharonmaas.co.uk
Christine N. said:
The Devil is an exclusively Christian creation. So, if I'm not a Christian, then I don't believe in the Devil, do I??

I agree with puddle - it's the whole "I'm right, you're wrong, see it my way NOW" attitutde that many Christians have that turns me off from religion in general. I worship my way, my time. I'm a good person, I don't intentionally hurt people.

I think that's the way it should be.

I don't believe in the Devil. I'm just curious as to how Bible-is-literally-true people explain the ethics of "devil-worshippers".

Isn't Brokenfingers you agree with?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.