The God thread

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Pat~

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How do people who worship "other" gods (or no god) learn morality and ethics? Surely they should be wicked, and if they are very religious, as for instance Hindus are, they must be very wicked indeed.

According to my faith, people were created in the image of God; when they sinned this image was marred--but not obliterated completely. In addition, all humans have a soul, through which the conscience is able to speak (in varying degrees).

Responding to a later post, worshiping a false god is not the same as worshiping the devil (though, indeed, some people do worship him). Worshiping a false god or idol is said to be worshiping something which is dead and powerless; the devil is neither of these.

“But their idols are silver and gold, made by the hands of men. They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but they cannot see; they have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell; they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk; nor can they utter a sound with their throats. Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them." (Psalm 115:4-8)

(see also Jeremiah 10:5, 51:17-19; Isaiah 44)
 

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Peggy said:
That explains something that has puzzled me : why some evangelical preachers who go on and on about American Christians being persecuted. As far as I can tell, the only persecution they are actually experienceing is not getting their way in all things all the time (no teacher-lead prayer in schools? persecution! no goverment paid-for creche scene? persecution! not able to build a megachurch anywhere they please? persecution! ). But if part of their beliefs require that anyone of the Christian faith WILL be persecuted, it's no wonder that they go desperately looking for it. It really really bothers me that they say such things, trivializing the real persecution Christians suffer in countries like Afghanistan and China.

Though the Christian faith does not require that Christians be persecuted, I think you are correct in saying that the real persecution is elsewhere. Right now, Christians are having their freedom or even their lives threatened in China, Nigeria, India, Afghanistan, and other countries; American Christians should look at any 'persecution' they might feel in light of this reality.
 

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William Haskins said:
martyrdom is central to christianity. always has been, for obvious reasons.

Martyrdom, but not for martyrdom's sake. Unwavering faith in the gospel and love for Christ is central to Christianity.

the religion would be a quite different animal if jesus had died of natural causes at the age of 72, yes?

It would be a dead faith, for sure.
 

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aruna said:
Thank you, Pat. I also like that you said "According to my faith" - that's nice!

You're welcome :) -- and I love the new avatar!
 

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aruna said:
Yes, Hindus too believe that salvation comes not through effort but by grace.

I was referring to the idea in reincarnation that one moves progressively upward based in part on their good works while on earth. Whereas the Christian cannot point to anything meritorious on his part for his salvation.
 

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pb10220 said:
I was referring to the idea in reincarnation that one moves progressively upward based in part on their good works while on earth. Whereas the Christian cannot point to anything meritorious on his part for his salvation.
But reincarnation to a "better" life is not salvation. The aim is to actually transcend reincarnation, after which there is no more rebirth. Reincarnation only applies to a "reap what you sow" progression, but in fact does not affect the inner life, the soul. "Karma" can be destroyed in an instant through Grace.
 

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brokenfingers said:
Aruna, read my post above. People like that refuse to believe any truth but their own.


That is why so many people find organized religion in this world so reprehensible. Intolerance and the capacity to quickly pass judgment.

The propensity to divide the world into Us and Them. And from there it's only a small step to Us and those against us.

History has shown us this time and time again...

I think it is possible to believe in the concept of Absolute Truth without being obnoxious and 'clubby' about it; it is not the fault of the ideology, but the fault of the personality if some people are judgmental or bigoted. As I said before, Christianity that is based on the Bible cannot support a judgmental attitude. God alone is the Judge. True Christianity tolerates your right to choose your own belief (though it may not agree with it--which is its right as well).

Personally, I am a product of 'disorganized' religion, having attended at least 6 different denominations in my lifetime; I would be comfortable in almost any church--or even no church. Organized religion, as a construct of man, is bound to show man's tendencies, including the ability to err.
 

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aruna said:
But reincarnation to a "better" life is not salvation. The aim is to actually transcend reincarnation, after which there is no more rebirth. Reincarnation only applies to a "reap what you sow" progression, but in fact does not affect the inner life, the soul. "Karma" can be destroyed in an instant through Grace.

This might explain the difference more succinctly:

"According to most Hindu teaching, salvation from the cycle of reincarnation is achieved by our own efforts--whether through good works, meditation, or devotion to a deity. According to the Bible, however, our spiritual need is for deliverance from God's judgment on our sin and for restoration to a life under His direction and care. This salvation can be provided only by God's gracious and undeserved action in our behalf.
It is true that in certain Hindu groups there is a similar emphasis on God's grace (probably as a result of past Christian influence). But even here, there is a major distinction. The Hindu teaching about grace sees no need for an atonement for sin, but simply offers forgiveness without any satisfaction of the judgment on sin required by a holy God." (emphasis added)

(from the link http://www.probe.org/content/view/692/65/)
 

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Puddle, I’m at a loss how to proceed here, if at all. You asked several of us posting on the thread to explain ourselves, which many of us did. You then used your belief system to point out our errors to us. It seems to me that empathetic listening ought to consist of hearing the other person, asking those questions needed to understand the person fully, and then appreciating the encounter for the understanding that it gave you. You asked me to tell you about Quakerism, which I did. This required me to write long posts that probably wearied other readers of the thread. If you were attending what is formally called Meeting for Worship (which I encourage you to do if you are truly interested), an elder of the meeting might well approach you afterwards and say something like (in plain speech): “Friend, thou dispute too much, and hear too little.”

I told you that my faith is not validated by the Bible. “Aha,” you say, pouncing quickly: “Your faith is not validated by the Bible!!” Do you see the circularity here?

A few other points:
Puddle Jumper said:
Do Quakers use a Bible?
Yes, but not as you do.
If Quakers profess to be Christianity (which I've always assumed they do) then their definition of the word sin would have to come from the Bible
Well no, for the reasons I have told you: Christian Biblical literalist
How can a Quaker say what sin is if they don't rely on the Bible
There are other standards. Aruna, for example, has pointed to natural law principles.
that sounds like New Age religion.
And this is obviously bad precisely how?
Now that sounds more like Mormonism.
I must say that you are the first person ever to accuse me of that. I doubt that they would have me.
But it brings me back to the question, if not for the Bible how would you have a basis for your faith?
There are many, many ways, some of which I and other posters have told you about
You seem to pick and choose things in the Bible that you agree with
Frankly, it always seemed to me that fundamentalists do that frequently: the stoning of folks, the thing about the shellfish and "unclean" animals (do you eat pork?) . . .
Do you have another historical record of Jesus that counters the Bible to base this belief on?
Why would I need one?
C.S. Lewis touched on this topic. He said that Jesus was one of the three L's. Either He was a Lunatic, a Liar, or the Lord
So now you are invoking the authority of a scholar of literature and writer of fantasy novels?
That actually sounds a bit scary to me because that sounds an awful lot like a cult I've heard about.
Charles II of England worried a bit about that too: "Just what are those people plotting as they sit there in silence? They must be up to no good." And Quakers can indeed be crafty. Old joke:

A Quaker was milking a cow. He got about half-way through when she kicked over the bucket of milk. He quietly shook his head, picked up the bucket, and started again. He had just about finished when she put her foot in the bucket. He went around in front of her, took her by the horns, and said: "Cow, thou knowest I am a Quaker, and cannot strike thee. But there is one thing thou dost not know. Tomorrow I could sell thee to a Baptist and he'll beat the disobedience out of thee!" The rest of the milking went forward uneventfully.

Peace be with thee.
 
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aruna

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pb10220 said:
This might explain the difference more succinctly:

"According to most Hindu teaching, salvation from the cycle of reincarnation is achieved by our own efforts--whether through good works, meditation, or devotion to a deity. According to the Bible, however, our spiritual need is for deliverance from God's judgment on our sin and for restoration to a life under His direction and care. This salvation can be provided only by God's gracious and undeserved action in our behalf.
It is true that in certain Hindu groups there is a similar emphasis on God's grace (probably as a result of past Christian influence). But even here, there is a major distinction. The Hindu teaching about grace sees no need for an atonement for sin, but simply offers forgiveness without any satisfaction of the judgment on sin required by a holy God." (emphasis added)

(from the link http://www.probe.org/content/view/692/65/)

Pat, you will find the concept of Grace in very ancient Hindu texts, predating Christianity. ALL Hindus who go the path of Bhakti (Devotion and Surennder to God; which is, however, not the only path) believe that final salvation is through grace and not through effort.
However, it is true that the concept of sin as it is understood in the Bible does not exist in Hinduism. Instead, there is the concept of ignorance, which has it's source in separation from God. We are ALL in this state of ignorance - that is, we are ignorant of our true being - until we have found back "home" to God, and nothing can remove that ignorance but Grace. I think the words are different, but the concept remains the same.
 

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Pat:

here's a very well known Hindu "hymn" (translated from Hindi), which is sung at almost every "puja", or worship, a very old song and one of my favourites (my bold).

Jaya Jagadisha Hare

Hail to the Lord of the Universe, Oh Master, hail …
Who in an instant removes the troubles
of devotees and humble people.


Meditating on you brings these fruits: sorrows of the heart are destroyed,
Happiness and wealth come to the home, and physical sickness is removed.


You are my Mother and Father, from who else can I seek refuge…
Without you, there is no one; I have no other hope.

You are Complete, the Supreme Self, who dwells within,
Beyond Brahma, you are the Supreme Lord, the Master of All.

You are an Ocean of Compassion, the Nourisher.
I am the Servant, you are the Master, bestow your grace, Preserver!


You are One, Unseen, Lord of all life.
Oh Merciful One, how can I find you, with a mind so defiled.

Brother of the Helpless, Reliever of Sorrows, You are my Protector.
Raise your hand(in blessing) I am lying at your door.


O Lord, remove my impurities, take away my sins,
Increase my reverence and devotion and service to the Saints
 

rekirts

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If you don't know what religion you are, you can take this quiz.

Here's what I got.

1. Neo-Pagan (100%) 2. Unitarian Universalism (98%) 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (98%) 4. New Age (96%) 5. New Thought (93%) 6. Liberal Quakers (90%) 7. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (88%) 8. Scientology (86%) 9. Mahayana Buddhism (81%) 10. Theravada Buddhism (77%) 11. Bahá'í Faith (76%) 12. Reform Judaism (75%) 13. Taoism (65%) 14. Secular Humanism (64%) 15. Sikhism (56%) 16. Orthodox Quaker (54%) 17. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (53%) 18. Jainism (52%) 19. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (50%) 20. Orthodox Judaism (47%) 21. Hinduism (47%) 22. Nontheist (43%) 23. Islam (39%) 24. Jehovah's Witness (29%) 25. Eastern Orthodox (24%) 26. Roman Catholic (24%) 27. Seventh Day Adventist (21%)
 

Pat~

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aruna said:
Pat, you will find the concept of Grace in very ancient Hindu texts, predating Christianity. ALL Hindus who go the path of Bhakti (Devotion and Surennder to God; which is, howe ver, not the only path) believe that final salvation is through grace and not through effort.
However, it is true that the concept of sin as it is understood in the Bible does not exist in Hinduism. Instead, there is the concept of ignorance, which has it's source in separation from God. We are ALL in this state of ignorance - that is, we are ignorant of our true being - until we have found back "home" to God, and nothing can remove that ignorance but Grace. I think the words are different, but the concept remains the same.

Almost the same, but not quite :) . Firstly, the Bible claims that man was not simply ignorant, and therefore falling short of perfection; it claims he rebelled, and chose to be outside of God's will, even while knowing it.

The second difference is that the Hindu's grace is extended without punishing sin, without the need for atonement (Christ's work on the cross). I can see how this would be very much more appealing--for a god simply to extend grace without condemning sin. This seems a much kinder, gentler god at first glance. But awhile back I posted that the Christian concept of God is that He is the epitome of all that is Holy and Good. If so, His Goodness requires that He also be Just, and that sin not go unpunished. (This sense of goodness requiring justice is not foreign; it forms the basis for our legal system, in fact.) So because God is Holy and Just, He must punish sin; but because He is at the same time Good and Merciful, and above all, Love, He Himself provided the way for His Justice to be met--through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus. "For without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin" (Hebrews 9:22, 10:18).
 

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aruna said:
Pat:

here's a very well known Hindu "hymn" (translated from Hindi), which is sung at almost every "puja", or worship, a very old song and one of my favourites (my bold).

Jaya Jagadisha Hare

Hail to the Lord of the Universe, Oh Master, hail …
Who in an instant removes the troubles
of devotees and humble people.


Meditating on you brings these fruits: sorrows of the heart are destroyed,
Happiness and wealth come to the home, and physical sickness is removed.


You are my Mother and Father, from who else can I seek refuge…
Without you, there is no one; I have no other hope.

You are Complete, the Supreme Self, who dwells within,
Beyond Brahma, you are the Supreme Lord, the Master of All.

You are an Ocean of Compassion, the Nourisher.
I am the Servant, you are the Master, bestow your grace, Preserver!


You are One, Unseen, Lord of all life.
Oh Merciful One, how can I find you, with a mind so defiled.

Brother of the Helpless, Reliever of Sorrows, You are my Protector.
Raise your hand(in blessing) I am lying at your door.


O Lord, remove my impurities, take away my sins,
Increase my reverence and devotion and service to the Saints

A beautiful hymn, and one which evidences the syncretistic nature of the Hindu religion.
 

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pb10220 said:
Almost the same, but not quite :) . Firstly, the Bible claims that man was not simply ignorant, and therefore falling short of perfection; it claims he rebelled, and chose to be outside of God's will, even while knowing it.

Please say 'Christian Bible' or 'New Testament' rather than co-opting the entire Bible.
 

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pb10220 said:
...awhile back I posted that the Christian concept of God is that He is the epitome of all that is Holy and Good. If so, His Goodness requires that He also be Just, and that sin not go unpunished. (This sense of goodness requiring justice is not foreign; it forms the basis for our legal system, in fact.)
In our legal system, however, punishment falls on the wrongdoer, not on an innocent party.
 

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reph said:
In our legal system, however, punishment falls on the wrongdoer, not on an innocent party.

Yes, that's (hopefully!) true. But from the beginning of time, God allowed for substitutionary atonement. In His mercy, He wanted some way of meeting justice, but also saving man, his 'treasured possession', from the "wages" of his sin, which was death and eternal separation from a holy God (Romans 6:23). So in the Old Testament times, God's justice was served by the substitutionary atonement of a lamb, who was a foreshadowing of the perfect Lamb who would take away the sins of the world. It sounds rather rough for the innocent party (and it was), but it was the only way God's holiness, goodness, justice, AND mercy could all be satisfied. In the end, God Himself satisfied it, because only He could satisfy it.
 
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Sassenach said:
Please say 'Christian Bible' or 'New Testament' rather than co-opting the entire Bible.

If you read the OT, you will find that it is replete with this concept of man's rebellion against God. The Christian Bible is NOT simply the New Testament; it is both OT and NT, which are beautifully knit together.
 

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pb10220 said:
So in the Old Testament times, God's justice was served by the substitutionary atonement of a lamb, who was a foreshadowing of the perfect Lamb who would take away the sins of the world.
I understand the sacrifice of livestock in O.T. times as that society's equivalent of paying a fine. In that time and place, animals were wealth. Offering one to be killed meant giving up part of your property. The experience would, ideally, make you think twice next time you wanted to commit the same offense. Having another person killed for your offenses makes no sense to me. I realize that Christian theology connects these two things. I'm just saying the connection seems arbitrary, unnatural.
 

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pb10220 said:
The Christian Bible is NOT simply the New Testament; it is both OT and NT, which are beautifully knit together.
Also worth noting: I was taught that in a Christian Bible, the Old Testament books were in a different order than they had been in the Tanakh. The rearranged order was to create a better prophetical backdrop for Jesus being the promised Messiah. In the original order, the story pointed in quite a different direction.

It's been more than ten years since the class in which I learned this (summer 1994 at the University of Washington) so I don't have the details on this direct to hand. But the rabbi teaching the class wanted to emphasize that you can't just cut a Christian Bible in half at the OT/NT line and wind up with a "Hebrew Bible" in your hand; there's more revision that went on besides adding the Gospels and the Letters and the Acts and Revelations and whatnot.

I could do a compare/contrast later on tonight; I've got a Tanakh and a couple of Bibles on the shelf. But right now this moment time is limited. :(
 

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pb10220 said:
So because God is Holy and Just, He must punish sin; but because He is at the same time Good and Merciful, and above all, Love, He Himself provided the way for His Justice to be met--through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus. "For without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin" (Hebrews 9:22, 10:18).

"God said to Abrahim,
Kill me a son.
Abe said Man, you must be puttin' me on.
God said No. Abe said What?
God said You can do what you want, Abe, but
The next time you see me comin', you better run.

Abe said, Where do you want this killin' done?
God said, Out on Highway 61."

-- Bob Dylan

caw.
 

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blacbird said:
"God said to Abrahim,
Kill me a son.
Abe said Man, you must be puttin' me on.
God said No. Abe said What?
God said You can do what you want, Abe, but
The next time you see me comin', you better run.

Abe said, Where do you want this killin' done?
God said, Out on Highway 61."

-- Bob Dylan

caw.
I was wondering when that would appear. I grew up in a little town on US 61 and we always liked that song; it made us feel important that even Bobby D wrote about us. He lived in Duluth for awhile, which is where the US portion of 61 ends -- it's a MN state highway on up to Canada. Red Wing (as in "Walls of Red Wing") is also on US 61.
 
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reph said:
I understand the sacrifice of livestock in O.T. times as that society's equivalent of paying a fine. In that time and place, animals were wealth. Offering one to be killed meant giving up part of your property. The experience would, ideally, make you think twice next time you wanted to commit the same offense. Having another person killed for your offenses makes no sense to me. I realize that Christian theology connects these two things. I'm just saying the connection seems arbitrary, unnatural.

I think that's probably a common understanding--esp. since we often 'pay' for wrongdoing in a monetary way (eg. we have fines in our legal system). But that really isn't the reason God wanted animal sacrifice. In the Bible is a verse something to the effect, "the life is in the blood." (Leviticus 17:11,"For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.") If the wages of sin was death, the atonement demanded blood (symbolic of life). It was the blood of the perfect lamb which made atonement, not simply the death. The sacrifice of the lamb always involved the shedding and symbolic sprinkling of the blood. We see this symbolism also in the Passover, where at the time of the Exodus of the children of Israel from their slavery in Egypt, they had to put the blood of the Passover lamb on the doorposts and jamb. When the angel saw the blood, then he would pass over that house, and its firstborn son would be spared. In Christian thought, this is fraught with symbolism; the Israelites's slavery in Egypt, (a land of idolatry), is symbolic of mankind's slavery to the sin nature. The angel seeing the blood, and passing over, and the subsequent deliverance from their land of bondage is seen as symbolic of the believer's faith in the blood of Christ to atone for his sin, and the believer's subsequent freedom from a life of slavery to sin patterns.
 
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Puddle Jumper

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Aruna, read my post above. People like that refuse to believe any truth but their own.
Your theory lacks logic. "People refuse to believe any truth but their own." Hello? If we believe something to be truth, we're not going to believe in lies. That goes for what you believe in, what Aruna believes in, and what every person on earth believes in. Brokenfingers, you are trying to say that only those who believe a certain way are like this. No, every human being is like that. If we believe something to be truth, if someone comes along with something contradictory to what we believe to be truth, we are going to refuse it.

I state that the Bible is the ultimate authority by which Christianity is based and anyone claiming a Christian theology which contradicts the Bible because they say the Bible isn't I believe to be false. Thus I refuse it. Likewise Aruna is the opposite, refusing to believe my truth because she accepts her beliefs as truth and since my beliefs contradict her own she refuses my truth and believes it to be false.

So your argument really doesn't hold any water because your statement in itself claims that you are just the same - refusing any truth other than your own.

Logic dictates that we can not accept multiple truths which contradict each other. If we did, we would be a paradox and should probably be put in a room with padded walls at that point because we'd be mentally insane. You don't accept something as truth if it contradicts your beliefs, no one does. So I really don't understand why you insist on making this argument.

reph said:
In another post, you said you'd become a Christian at age 12. Honestly, I don't think your faith has matured since then. Most adults have moved beyond such black-and-white judgments.
The statement of a judge, jury, and executioner.

aruna said:
I see that there is really no point, as you argue with the Bible, whereas I - and many extremely sincere practicing Christians I know - do not accept the Bible as hard and fast literal truth.

Christianity is so divided among itself that it a farce. It is divisive and exclusionary. Thank goodness, though, there ARE other Christians, who understand the allegorical nature of the Bible.
And I'm accused of looking at everything black and white? Most Christians I know, myself included, understand that the Bible uses many forms of writing. Some parts are literal, others are figurative.

aruna said:
However, I am referring specifically to those who worship, in your eyes, "other gods", those other gods being, I suppose, the Devil. If they worship the Devil surely they would be prompted to do evil.
Since you seem to want me to repeat myself, okay. We are born sinners. Sin is evil. The Bible says that no one is good, we've all turned away from God. Anyone who thinks otherwise is only deceiving themself.

William Haskins said:
martyrdom is central to christianity. always has been, for obvious reasons.
God judges the heart, He knows our secret motives. Those He considers martyrs are ones who did not seek martyrdome but in the face of that heavy a persecution, did not deny or reject their Lord and were willing to die.

Jesus was a martyr, He did not want to die, He spent all night praying and crying so hard that He sweat blood. Medical doctors say that will happen to a person when they are under a tremendous amount of stress. Jesus asked God to change His mind, it was God's will for Jesus to be a martyr.

Likewise I believe all true martyrs don't want to be martyrd. Yes it's noble, but the desire of Christians in this world should be the desires of reaching as many lost people as they can. Being martyrd means you won't have the opportunity to reach as many people.

It is my belief that true martyrs don't want it, but they will die for Jesus before ever denying Him because they know to deny Jesus to save their mortal life for awhile would be eternally devastating.

Colorado Guy said:
I must say that you are the first person ever to accuse me of that. I doubt that they would have me.
I absolutely did not accuse you of being a mormon. I said that what you wrote sounded like what mormons believe. Clearly Quakers and Mormons are two different groups of people.

Colorado said:
Frankly, it always seemed to me that fundamentalists do that frequently: the stoning of folks, the thing about the shellfish and "unclean" animals (do you eat pork?) . . .
Frankly I find it gets old whenever someone who doesn't take much of any, if any, of the Bible literally accuses someone who takes any part of it as being a "Fundamentalist." I see the word "Fundamentalist" used as a four-letter-word.

My understanding of the word "Fundamentalist" is someone who takes the entire Bible literally. You can't do that, that's not how the Bible is written.
 
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