Most common pitfalls of white people writing POC?

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Marian Perera

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I suppose it's possible that one is fetishizing white beauty when a pov goes on about the creamy whiteness of a female character's skin, her rosebud lips, or how elegantly pale she is or how her hair is like spun gold too.

No, that always sounds ridiculous to me. I just hoped "darker and more vivid in comparison" to the white clothes (something no one else in their culture wears) didn't sound like I was making her skin color something exotic.

I also mention her full mouth, dark eyes and curly black hair as other things the hero notices and likes about her, but not all in one big cluster of description.

But of course, it's not happening in a vacuum. I'm not particularly offended when people who look like me are portrayed as an "exotic other" as seen through the eyes of someone who isn't used to white people, because it's been so darned rare for that to happen in literature.
At the end of the story, the hero and heroine meet another woman who's a pale-skinned blonde, and she reminds him of a snow leopard in a pride of lions.

The story's already out on submission, so hopefully nothing's too bad. *crosses fingers*
 

Jack Asher

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No, that always sounds ridiculous to me. I just hoped "darker and more vivid in comparison" to the white clothes (something no one else in their culture wears)
Maybe you can be forgiven as you live in Vermont, but Hispanics wear white all the time.
 

Marian Perera

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Maybe you can be forgiven as you live in Vermont, but Hispanics wear white all the time.

I just blinked at this and thought, "Vermont?"

Thanks, Roxxsmom. I also scrolled back to make sure that I'd mentioned this was a fantasy set in a land like Africa (and yes, I did). No one in the story is Hispanic.
 

Jack Asher

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I just blinked at this and thought, "Vermont?"

Thanks, Roxxsmom. I also scrolled back to make sure that I'd mentioned this was a fantasy set in a land like Africa (and yes, I did). No one in the story is Hispanic.
Oh balls, I'm sorry. I'm still getting used to everyone's avatar on here.

Carry on.
 

J.S.F.

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...I actually chuckle when I read something in a pov where a white person is ugly by a person of color who is seeing them for the first time, because it turns stereotypes on their heads. But this would be offensive if it were reversed.
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I don't chuckle at all, because it can be racist in and of itself depending on how it's handled. Granted, being white is the default in our writing culture and I'm all for different colors making their mark as it were, but since when did two wrongs make a right?

I remember reading novels written by PoC where white people got stereotyped as being fat, loud, and obnoxious while that PoC was, well, not. So while some may see that as a comeuppance of sorts, to me it's just as bad as someone stereotyping blacks as this sort of thing or Hispanics as that sort of thing and Asians as whatever.
 

Roxxsmom

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---

I don't chuckle at all, because it can be racist in and of itself depending on how it's handled. Granted, being white is the default in our writing culture and I'm all for different colors making their mark as it were, but since when did two wrongs make a right?

Since many of us came of age in a world where white beauty ideas are held up as "the best" (and when beauty of other groups is acknowledged it's in an, "aren't they exotic?" sort of way) and people of color sometimes feel compelled to straighten (or curl when that's in fashion) and dye their hair, bleach their skin (sometimes even in rather private parts of their bodies), and have plastic surgery so they have features that look more European and a beauty that is less "exotic" by the standards of "mainstream" society, which does not acknowledge them as normal.

And since it's not unusual for people to actually respond with fear, or even distaste, when they encounter someone who looks very unusual to them. It may be a perfectly legitimate way for a given character to respond if the writer is trying to get across that this person is very insular or sheltered.

The trick, I think, is to portray it in a way that makes it clear the author isn't sanctioning the attitude. If the author is white, of course, it's a bit more obvious that they're not in favor of anti-white prejudices than if they're portraying prejudice against someone who isn't white.

---I remember reading novels written by PoC where white people got stereotyped as being fat, loud, and obnoxious while that PoC was, well, not. So while some may see that as a comeuppance of sorts, to me it's just as bad as someone stereotyping blacks as this sort of thing or Hispanics as that sort of thing and Asians as whatever.

I don't think it's just as bad, because white people have not historically been denied anything as a consequence of these stereotypes. It's sort of like the reverse sexism argument. There may be a few privileges that come with being female or a PoC (and some negative stereotypes associated with whiteness and maleness), but far more benefits come with being male and white. That's why guys often chuckle and say, "Yeah, we're just bad at housework, so we shouldn't be expected to do it," while women tend to bristle when they're told they're bad at analytical thought and shouldn't be expected to perform well in STEM professions.

For the record, I agree that all stereotypes are bad, but I think ones levied against groups who have historically (and still do) have less wealth, power and social status are more harmful.
 
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Fruitbat

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OP, obviously, no one "has to" answer, but as I said I'd seek out and weigh advice from those who are actually of the particular group in question far more heavily (which I am not). Good luck!

Also, I agree with JSF in that I do not appreciate being disrespected or insulted any more than anyone else does, regardless of majority/minority status. The general public doesn't know a thing about who we or any of our particular ancestors are or what they went through. They shouldn't assume it was all privileged, walking on other group's backs, and therefore deserving of taking a punch and shutting up about it based on race alone. o_O
 
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M.N Thorne

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Evolving K, I have a few answers to your question about latinos on Texas border. First of all, East Texas is different from the Texas/Mexican border. Secondly, I would first try to get into your non-white characters' mind. Since your story is set in a border town.... then you need to write realistic characters. You need to go to the library and learn about Tejano,Banda, Tex-Mex and Norteno music. If your characters do not listen to this type of music. It should always be in the background somewhere as part of their cultural heritage. Also you should watch a couple of films set in Texas or Southwest involving Latino characters such as "Lone Star" (1996), Gas Food Lodging (1992), Luminarias (2001), Star Maps (1997), Bless Me, Ultima (2013), Smile Now Cry Later (2013) and Crazy from the heart (1991). These films can help you create more realistic Latino or Mexican-American characters. I hope this helps you out.:)


I have a job ghostwriting erotica, and the current series I'm working on is set in East Texas. I'm from Vermont.

Setting a story on the Mexican border, I'm well aware of the grossness of white-washing my cast, but I find myself really nervous about getting it wrong as I write the various characters who are non-white. Some things I'm actively doing: describing peoples' skin colors with actual words, not foods, watching out for unintentional analogies (all the good guys are white and all the bad guys are PoC).

I guess some tips on how to make a big ass out of myself is what I'm looking for. My name won't be on this work at all, but in a weird way that makes me even more cautious, because I'll never be able to apologize for it or fix it if I get it wrong.
 

Roxxsmom

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OP, obviously, no one "has to" answer, but as I said I'd seek out and weigh advice from those who are actually of the particular group in question far more heavily (which I am not). Good luck!

Also, I agree with JSF in that I do not appreciate being disrespected or insulted any more than anyone else does, regardless of majority/minority status. The general public doesn't know a thing about who we or any of our particular ancestors are or what they went through. They shouldn't assume it was all privileged, walking on other group's backs, and therefore deserving of taking a punch and shutting up about it based on race alone. o_O

Sorry, if you thought I was saying that. I wasn't :(

I was just trying to explain why I personally, as a white person, don't feel terribly insulted if there's a pov character in a novel who thinks whiteness is strange, unattractive, or exotic. If I had to deal with that stereotype every day of my life and everywhere I went, it would be different though. But I don't.
 

calieber

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The biggest thing I've noticed in books with a strong relationship element is exotifying the PoC/non-white love interest, in a way that makes the interest in them seem to be a race-based fetish. And as I only usually read the opening chapters in SYW, it's amazing how the author manages to create this impression when the characters have only just met.

This (including the snipped-out part) is valuable to me, because I'm writing about a character in an interracial relationship. I don't want to make it a fetish thing, but I honestly don't know if it would have occurred to me to avoid it specifically.

Actually, none of the major (or secondary) characters are of an ethnic background I'm really familiar with, hm.
 

J.S.F.

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I was just trying to explain why I personally, as a white person, don't feel terribly insulted if there's a pov character in a novel who thinks whiteness is strange, unattractive, or exotic. If I had to deal with that stereotype every day of my life and everywhere I went, it would be different though. But I don't.
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Take it from a white person who does deal with that pretty much every day of my life. Half my life has been spent here--Japan--and yeah, sometimes it really pisses me off.
 

kuwisdelu

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Take it from a white person who does deal with that pretty much every day of my life. Half my life has been spent here--Japan--and yeah, sometimes it really pisses me off.

But Japan is not the West, no?

Context is important.
 

J.S.F.

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But Japan is not the West, no?

Context is important.

---

True, it's not the West, but MY context is that I get looks and stares and finger pointing pretty much every day of the week and it ain't because of my rugged good looks or incredible magnetism. My children--who are bi-racial--have gotten the same thing along with being asked on a daily basis by some--and not all--"are you really Japanese"? My wife was asked by a number of her friends why she married a gaijin when she could have married a regular Japanese--and to this day, almost seventeen years after the fact, some of them still bring it up. So yeah, I'd say MY context is pretty important.
 

EvolvingK

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This (including the snipped-out part) is valuable to me, because I'm writing about a character in an interracial relationship. I don't want to make it a fetish thing, but I honestly don't know if it would have occurred to me to avoid it specifically.

Actually, none of the major (or secondary) characters are of an ethnic background I'm really familiar with, hm.

My experience with this comes from reading and writing characters who have LGBT and kink backgrounds, so it may not be the same, but I'll put it out there in case it's helpful.

The biggest thing I see is that if two characters are attracted solely because of a kink, or because they're both gay, or whatever, the relationship is going to feel weird and strange and fetishy to the reader, especially if for one of the people this is the first time they've had this sort of relationship. As long as the writer is careful to be clear that these two people like the same music, or entertain each other with dry senses of humor, AND ALSO share a fondness for being tied up and tickled by ferret tails, it's usually going to be okay.

If the *main reason*, or even the perceived main reason, that two characters are attracted to each other is the kink, or the ethnicity, that's when I think the fetish question strongly comes into play.
 

Fruitbat

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. If the *main reason*, or even the perceived main reason, that two characters are attracted to each other is the kink, or the ethnicity, that's when I think the fetish question strongly comes into play.

Then again, it's erotica and people do have and indulge all kinds of interests or fetishes, right? So I think it depends on what your potential audience thinks, not what everybody thinks.
 

Polenth

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Then again, it's erotica and people do have and indulge all kinds of interests or fetishes, right? So I think it depends on what your potential audience thinks, not what everybody thinks.

Racial fetishes exist, but they're not happy fun things that lead to hot relationships. Erotica that portrays it as such is romanticising something that's creepy in real life, and often leads to abusive situations. A lot of erotica readers may not care, but this is the PoC forum... we aim to do better than continue on with harmful stereotyping simply because it's the way the majority does something.

Erotica's not a genre I like to read, but I have friends that do. I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to pick up a book and see a relationship they find hot, rather than one that makes them deeply uncomfortable because the person like them is portrayed as a fetish object rather than a human. You can't have a fetish for black people in the same way as you can have a fetish for being covered in cranberry sauce. They aren't equivalents.
 

M.N Thorne

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Actually, I would like to add to your statements about racial fetishes and erotica. As a person of color and someone who actually works in highly sexualized industry, racial fetishes are meant to make people uncomfortable and that is why it is hot to many people. Frankly, I do not see raceplay becoming mainstream even in BDSM erotica circles.You see, non-white racial fetishes are about racism, sexual abuse, power, and control. However, it is just a taboo fantasy that many high-power people enjoy. Currently, I have an long-term erotica contact with a young Christian Gray type of businessman into fetishizing Asian, Black, and Latina women. He was quite disappointed in the lack of great raceplay stories.

However, there is the white racial fetish that deals with domination, control, European Colonialism and whitewashing one's racial identity. I write custom raceplay erotica stories for tons of high power young minority women into white male racial domination. Many of these women often are disappointed by the lack of raceplay stories in mainstream erotica as well.These young women romanticised becoming a racial fetish and being sexually control by white men. They think it is cute for them to long for Alexander Skarsgard types calling them racial slurs:poke: Stereotyping is a large part of the raceplay fetish. Raceplay is a large and growing fetish in the BDSM world.Just a lot of people do not like talking about it. I must agree with you that these stories do not lead to happy relationships. However, I do not believe that is what the OP is trying to do. She just wants to present pocs in a realistic and non-fetish way. I hope to give you more insight into racial fetishes and erotica.


Racial fetishes exist, but they're not happy fun things that lead to hot relationships. Erotica that portrays it as such is romanticising something that's creepy in real life, and often leads to abusive situations. A lot of erotica readers may not care, but this is the PoC forum... we aim to do better than continue on with harmful stereotyping simply because it's the way the majority does something.

Erotica's not a genre I like to read, but I have friends that do. I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to pick up a book and see a relationship they find hot, rather than one that makes them deeply uncomfortable because the person like them is portrayed as a fetish object rather than a human. You can't have a fetish for black people in the same way as you can have a fetish for being covered in cranberry sauce. They aren't equivalents.
 

Fruitbat

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@Polenth- I am answering a writing question with an answer that applies generally, whatever the particular issue is. If someone chooses to write for any specialized audience, whatever you and I may think of it, their main concern is still what that particular audience wants and expects, not us. Therefore, opinions from the general public may just not apply, that's all.
 
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EvolvingK

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Then again, it's erotica and people do have and indulge all kinds of interests or fetishes, right? So I think it depends on what your potential audience thinks, not what everybody thinks.

Well, I was responding here to the person asking about portraying an interracial relationship, and how to avoid creating the perception of attraction only to the exotic.

That said, I don't think that just because erotica is often about indulging things in fiction that might be too much in real life -- I will read and enjoy much heavier BDSM stuff than I'm likely to engage in, just for your friendly TMI example -- I don't think that means that authors shouldn't be aware of and avoid the kind of unconscious exoticism that we've been talking about in this thread.
 

Kitty27

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Writing POC characters involves the two R's,research and respect.

Research the people and culture you are writing about. Talk to someone of that group if you can. By no means are we all a monopoly,so what one person likes,another will hiss in pure fury at.

See the raceplay M.N.Thorne mentions. As a Black woman and knowing our history during slavery, I absolutely couldn't read it. Someone else will be goo gaga for it as Thorne said.

Do your very best to respect culture. One of the worst things I've seen was a writer who thought being raised in Jamaica and being raised in the US meant the characters were the same because they were Black. She didn't take into account cultural differences at all.
 

Roxxsmom

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I would think that the best way to portray an interracial relationship without making it appear like the author is exoticizing or otherizing anyone is to focus on the things the two people have in common that brought them together, and certainly don't make it all, or even mostly, about the physical. Also, I'd think one shouldn't be ignoring the real issues that exist in the place and time of the story for couples from different racial or cultural backgrounds, certainly, but unless it's specifically an issue story, not to have these problems be the main focus either.

---

True, it's not the West, but MY context is that I get looks and stares and finger pointing pretty much every day of the week and it ain't because of my rugged good looks or incredible magnetism.

Oh definitely, and I'm sorry I made it sound like I was dismissing your own experiences. Context is indeed everything.
 
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TheWordsmith

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I'm not an American , so I have no idea about East Texas . However, I understand the problems you might be having . Most people are the same , regardless of their origins . We all want our children to do well , our parents to be fit and healthy, and our bank balance to be in the black . Don't worry about being white , just see others as you see your self.

Sorry, stephenf, but this is just wrong. Well, on one level, anyway.

Of course, all people are basically the same. They all have goals, desires, hopes, fears. But to categorically assume that ALL people are all the same regardless of what color package they are wrapped in is an invalid assumption.

Consider the Native American Nations: They have lived for generations with the history of Euro-Whites who came into their land, ripped them from their homes, shoved them around North America like so many pawns on a chessboard. Then, for good measure, rounded them up and put them in restricted areas, called reservations. These reservations were restricted access and guarded by U.S. military.
This is part of their history. Their grandparents and great-grandparents lived through this nightmare. Their parents grew up with tales of this mistreatment and so did they. It has become a systemic part of their lives.

African-Americans? There may still be people alive today whose grandparents were slaves. They grew up hearing tales of that life. It's odd that, just last night, I found myself wondering at how much of that becomes an integral part of who the next generations become. Certainly, it affects the way people look at 'things' and situations. It colors their outlook on their world.

And Hispanics, too, have an American torture story. And what was that about? Why the American invasion of a foreign country and the taking over of land belonging to that foreign country. (That would be Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Oklahoma, Nevada, California...) And the Mexicans were overpowered by "Texans" from Kentucky, the Carolinas, Massachusetts - almost anywhere but Texas. And yet the United States continues to swear this was a Texas war of independence, struggling to break free from Mexican rule. In exchange for...? American dominance?

But, if you think these historical ethnic experiences don't have at least some effect on subsequent generations, both in how they respond to former dominators as well as how they are treated, then you aren't paying attention. Consider that, how you relate to the world is moulded, in great part, by how you were raised. And how you were raised was largely contingent upon how your parents were raised and they, in turn, grew up with some bias based on how their parents grew up.

So, yes. You don't want to base your treatment of characters solely on their "wrapper" anymore than you would judge a gift based upon its outside wrapping. You will certainly notice it, but that is not the package. It is merely the outside of it. And neither would you want to treat your characters with any similarly dismissive attitude. You DO want to treat your characters all the same to one extent. You need to consider each one based upon the backstory you have developed for that one character.

Of course, the flip side of that is, EVERYONE has their own baggage, unique to them, which should be considered in drawing and presenting the character. And, regardless of the history of each, they all need to be treated as individuals. So, back to "square one": To arbitrarily see all of your characters as essentially the same is to not see them for themselves but as a masse. Think about the terra cotta soldiers. At first glance, they all appeared the same. But, a closer look revealed that each one was made with a unique, individual appearance.

The Chinese creators of those terra cotta soldiers knew that most people are not the same, in large part because of their origins. And we cannot just see others as we see ourselves because we are not all clones. We ARE all different, sometimes in subtle sometimes obvious ways.

Sorry. Didn't mean for this to become a dissertation the condition of man. :/
 

Mutive

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And Hispanics, too, have an American torture story. And what was that about? Why the American invasion of a foreign country and the taking over of land belonging to that foreign country. (That would be Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Oklahoma, Nevada, California...) And the Mexicans were overpowered by "Texans" from Kentucky, the Carolinas, Massachusetts - almost anywhere but Texas. And yet the United States continues to swear this was a Texas war of independence, struggling to break free from Mexican rule. In exchange for...? American dominance?

Eh, probably not so much if your character is a wealthy, white Hispanic who recently moved to Houston for a cushy oil job. :)

Especially with Hispanic characters, I'd pay attention to underlying race (Hispanics can be white, black, indigenous, Asian, mixed, etc.) and class. Someone who's ancestors were wealthy land owners in Mexico (or some of the founding fathers of their hometown) is going to have very different influences than the descendant of Haitian slaves. They both are Hispanic.
 

TheWordsmith

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Eh, probably not so much if your character is a wealthy, white Hispanic who recently moved to Houston for a cushy oil job. :)

Especially with Hispanic characters, I'd pay attention to underlying race (Hispanics can be white, black, indigenous, Asian, mixed, etc.) and class. Someone who's ancestors were wealthy land owners in Mexico (or some of the founding fathers of their hometown) is going to have very different influences than the descendant of Haitian slaves. They both are Hispanic.

Good point, Mutive. But there's a lot more in your comments than even you might realize. And that's the globally applicable truth that most of us are truly not of one, "pure", un-diluted ancestry.

Thanks.

Some people excel because of their background, others in spite of it.
 
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