Shady's Edgy YA (or sex, swearing, drinking, drugs, and violence in YA)

WriterTrek

Boldy Writing
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
730
Reaction score
97
Location
Mississippi, USA
12 year old can't ever be YA? Huh, I could have sworn I saw the Percy Jackson series and His Dark Materials shelved as YA before, but maybe not. MG and YA are often next to each other.

But at any rate, I do see your point. I didn't know that the MG vs YA thread also contained conversations vs adult, so yup, that's where I need to be for sure. I did know this thread wasn't the place for me, but at first glance it seemed the most obvious place to start.

Thanks much for directing me!
 

JustSarah

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,980
Reaction score
35
Website
about.me
I got the impression it was 14 and up.o_O

I was always told 13 still falls under Upper MG. I guess I need to rethink how I plot my stories then.
 

KarmaPolice

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
203
Reaction score
20
I think it's a case of confusion of 'assumed audience' and 'actual audience'. I'm reminded of those teen magazines which always wrote like their readers were 16-17, yet most of their readers were 13-14. (I actually used to work in a newsagent, back in the days that everyone used to buy the things.) Also, when I was that age I noticed that in many of the books being read, the YA protagonist was often a couple of years older than the reader.
 

Sage

Currently titleless
Staff member
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2005
Messages
64,561
Reaction score
22,361
Age
43
Location
Cheering you all on!
YA is 14 and up. And 14 is a tricky age that can go MG or YA and sometimes you'll get pushback because of that.

Some bookstores shelve some MG in YA and vice versa. And some have no specific MG section, so MG ends up simultaneously in "teens" or general "kids". I've seen less Percy Jackson in Teen shelves than I see the entire Harry Potter series in Kids, Teens, and (adult) Sci-Fi/Fantasy. What matters for the author right now is what publishing calls the book, and a 12yo protagonist is MG.
 

KimJo

Outside the box, with the werewolves
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
4,028
Reaction score
356
Location
somewhere in Massachusetts
Website
karennacolcroft.com
There are two things at play with the "YA age" question, I think. Readers and audience.

YA's intended *readers* are 12 and up. But the *characters* must be 14 and up.

So you're right when you say "YA is 12 and up" if you're talking about the people publishers and authors hope will *read* YA fiction, and you're right when you say "YA is 14 and up" if you're talking about the characters in the books.

The prevailing wisdom is that kids and teens "read up"; that is, they don't want to read about characters younger than them or even their own age, they want to read about older characters. So a 12-year-old reader at the bottom end of the reading age range is more likely to want to read about a 14-year-old than another 12-year-old. Whereas a middle-grade reader age 11, the upper end of that category's age range, is more likely to want to read about a 13-year-old, which is the upper end of the middle-grade *character* age range.

I'm caffeine-deprived; sorry if that sounded lectury. Basically, look at it this way: If your character is still in middle school, it's middle-grade. If they're in high school, it's young adult. If they've graduated high school and are either in college or working, it's new adult.

If you have a world where schools don't exist, let the age ranges be your guide.
 

MynaOphelia

lost her spaceship again
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 18, 2014
Messages
290
Reaction score
27
@KimJo that sounds about right, although there are definitely exceptions. Patrick Ness's Chaos Walking series has two protagonists that were 13* at the beginning of the story and it was very solidly YA. Those books were really good, but there was some heavy stuff in there especially in the last book that doesn't seem like it'd appeal to a 9 or 10 year old.

Although in general I think those are really good guidelines.

*Technically Todd was 12, but on the planet they lived on the months were different and by our standards he would have been 13 I think.
 

JustSarah

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,980
Reaction score
35
Website
about.me
Although my opinion has changed somewhat knowing middle grade can have some darker material (its a specific video company that suggested otherwise), I have wondered about young protagonists (say 10-11) in books that would otherwise be considered YA?

What would cause that sort of thing to happen, if such a thing were possible?
 

MynaOphelia

lost her spaceship again
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 18, 2014
Messages
290
Reaction score
27
I don't think there'd be one set circumstance. What you'd need is a story that would be interesting to YA readers (so typically longer wordcount, deals with thornier/more complex plots even if they aren't dark, etc) that somehow hinges on the character being in that age range. I think that range would be very low for YA though. The problem is that if you have a thornier plot, but your protag is barely 11, the protag might not really know how to deal with the situation or would deal with it in ways that might seem childish to older readers.
 

GaleRN

Registered
Joined
May 18, 2014
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Location
West Virginia
My wife works in a small Pre-School, in West Virginia, in a small town with population of no more than 2500, if that.
There are parents who let their 3-5 year old kids watch heavy "R" movies with them. Of course, there was also the four year old bragging that he was now old enough that Mom let him play on the train tracks by himself.
I was in high school clear back in the late 70's, and watched as hash was cut in class for sale. Pot was common. Kids touching in the hallway wasn't uncommon, though I understand its a lot more prevalent now.
One of the young women I work with admitted she had sex the first time at fifteen, on the cement floor of her boyfriend's basement while his parents were out, and "definitely felt pushed into doing it".
Long and short of this post, its hard to tell where to draw the lines of morality in a morally vague world.
My opinion, write your story. If drugs and sex is part of the story, include them. Personally, I find a teenager story without sexual tension to be questionable. Seriously, this isn't the eighteen hundreds.
I will close with simply this:
For those adults who think their kids should be shielded, allow me to quote a banner from a local university.
"Father's, thank you for your Freshman Daughters"

In the end, it's pretty simple, you can educate your kids, or someone else will do it for you. If you find an "edgy" book in your teens room, maybe it's time to sit down and talk with them about it instead of at them. Instead of confiscating it, utilize it as a teaching tool, to open the doorway to discuss their opinion on sex and drugs. Maybe even do that thing called listening. Something I don't think enough people do these days, as many seem too busy judging and prowling for something to fight about than to sit down and have a real discussion.
 

JustSarah

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,980
Reaction score
35
Website
about.me
Oh I just mean more realistic non-disneyfied plots. I don't necessarily mean adult anyway. Just stories that have endings that don't necessarily with things tied into a bow knot.

A story could still be happy without being, ... that happy.:/
 

eyeblink

Barbara says hi
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
6,358
Reaction score
892
Location
Aldershot, UK
Although my opinion has changed somewhat knowing middle grade can have some darker material (its a specific video company that suggested otherwise), I have wondered about young protagonists (say 10-11) in books that would otherwise be considered YA?

What would cause that sort of thing to happen, if such a thing were possible?

Helen Grant's The Vanishing of Katharina Linden is YA, and older YA at that. (It was shortlisted for the Carnegie Medal, and the judges' age recommendation was 14+.) However, the central character/narrator is ten at the time of the story, though it is narrated from an older perspective, by the narrator's seventeen-year-old self.
 

TechnoFusion

Registered
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Location
United States
I've got a draft right now that has the whole boatload mentioned in the thread title, which is funny because I'm actually below the age of the typical edgy YA recommendation ever-so-slightly (14+ as a 13 year old. Never been stopped by an age recommendation though - Crank sounds interesting!)

However, to believe that teenagers don't do these things is crazy.

There were f-words flying around multiple times a day in my class right from third grade. And I went to a Christian school!

I'm just worried of one of my family members finding the draft - I'd like to get it published some day but the only problem is that my parents would want to read it. And, um, yeah...no.

(I already had to edit a make-out session out of the one draft I have shared with them.)
 
Last edited:

The_Ink_Goddess

we're gonna make it out of the fire
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,206
Reaction score
312
Location
England
Notice that many of the dark books with age confusions are often from the UK and, in the UK, most 'high schools' (secondary schools) actually go from 11-16, with some exceptions, and then 'college' (which is not university) goes from 16-17. So we lack the easy '14+' cut-off. Also, our great precursor of UK YA lit was Jacqueline Wilson, and to say that her books were ambiguously MG/YA would be putting it mildly. Her protagonists were mostly 11-13 (though she moved into some 14-16 ones in her later works, and her 'younger' works were slightly softer in content, which is perhaps a sign of the times). There was a strange combination of dark, edgy and saccharine in them (and I grew up on them). There were often HEAs (although, to the older re-reader, they seemed a bit more forced and unlikely) and the protagonists' voices were often far younger than what we see today in YA lit, but I recall very edgy topics (mental illness, cancer, emotional/physical abuse, abandonment, death, suicide), and some pretty disturbing scenes of domestic abuse among other things.
 

JustSarah

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,980
Reaction score
35
Website
about.me
Oh another question just to make sure. Is anything to dark for YA? Cause from my impression it seems like the standard is less strenuous for YA than MG.

The reason I'm asking is, I'm still trying to get a chance to read Outsiders, which although not recent is probably the closest comparison I might have for my current YA novelette. A Clockwork Orange is to old, and I'm not even sure if it's YA.

My style has always been to elude to, but not show questionable subject matter. Like drugs use, violent criminality (like teen killing teen). The book just feels weird, as it's not really anything I would write now. (I've transitioned into writing MG Portal Fantasy it seems.)

I have other books I'm going to read by established authors like Can't Get Here From There. But it's not an exact match as it's has a little bit more science fiction, but not really dystopia in the traditional sense.

I'm willing to post a first chapter, though I may have to merge chapters. (They are 600 word chapters.) I was originally intending Upper MG (hence why in the first half they are early teens.)
 

TechnoFusion

Registered
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Location
United States
Oh another question just to make sure. Is anything to dark for YA? Cause from my impression it seems like the standard is less strenuous for YA than MG.

There is nothing I think that is unacceptable for YA. For example, Flowers in the Attic has incest and that's in the YA section of most libraries.

I can think of a lot of taboo topics that are explored in YA; pedophilia, rape, prostitution, drug use...the only limit you have is school libraries which might not carry your work, or a few parents raising eyebrows over the subject matter.
 

JustSarah

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,980
Reaction score
35
Website
about.me
Cool, well it's finished. I just need to look to see what the typical word count is for reluctant readers. (I've heard it was 30K, not positive. Which means adding a romantic subplot. It's 15K.)

Then again aren't the Wimpy Kid books like short? Then again that's middle grade, not the same thing.
 

jtrylch13

Has semi-colon; will use it!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
3,169
Reaction score
353
Location
Michigan
So I know we've talked about swearing in YA before, and I get the basic idea of if it fits the story. Using the f-bomb in a contemp ya about kids who would normally use it seems appropriate, but I'm questioning how I want to use it. I'm writing a YA sci-fi. Through out the book I use a few minor swear words, shit, damn, hell, but not very often, and I'm happy with that. I think they are being used appropriately. But I haven't used the f word because I'm not fond of it. But I have a scene where the MC and her brother are having a falling out and he says "That didn't stop you from fucking an alien!" At which point she slaps him, even though he had a recent facial surgery. My concern is that I haven't used this word before, so it will be jarring, but I kind of want it to be. Just saying "you slept with" or "you had sex with" doesn't make the same impact and I want her to be pissed off. It needs to be implied that she was wrong for what she did from his perspective. Also, I'm considering her father using the f word when she shoots him in the foot, because, well, he just got shot in the foot. Once again, don't want it to be jarring in the wrong way since I haven't used it in the novel up until that point. There are only a few chapters left after the f bombs, and they'll be in the same chapter. Any thoughts?
 

Christabelle

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
1,298
Reaction score
127
Location
Tennessee
So I know we've talked about swearing in YA before, and I get the basic idea of if it fits the story. Using the f-bomb in a contemp ya about kids who would normally use it seems appropriate, but I'm questioning how I want to use it. I'm writing a YA sci-fi. Through out the book I use a few minor swear words, shit, damn, hell, but not very often, and I'm happy with that. I think they are being used appropriately. But I haven't used the f word because I'm not fond of it. But I have a scene where the MC and her brother are having a falling out and he says "That didn't stop you from fucking an alien!" At which point she slaps him, even though he had a recent facial surgery. My concern is that I haven't used this word before, so it will be jarring, but I kind of want it to be. Just saying "you slept with" or "you had sex with" doesn't make the same impact and I want her to be pissed off. It needs to be implied that she was wrong for what she did from his perspective. Also, I'm considering her father using the f word when she shoots him in the foot, because, well, he just got shot in the foot. Once again, don't want it to be jarring in the wrong way since I haven't used it in the novel up until that point. There are only a few chapters left after the f bombs, and they'll be in the same chapter. Any thoughts?

I think both of those sound like a good time to use the f-bomb, and the less often you use it, the greater the impact. My male MC in FTP swears on a regular basis, but his chapters are contrasted by the female MC who only swears to make a major point. It was a big deal to have her say someone "scares the hell out of me."

I don't see a problem with your usage at all. I figure I'll end up having to cut some f-bombs. :)
 

SoCalWriter

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 18, 2014
Messages
571
Reaction score
47
So I know we've talked about swearing in YA before, and I get the basic idea of if it fits the story. Using the f-bomb in a contemp ya about kids who would normally use it seems appropriate, but I'm questioning how I want to use it. I'm writing a YA sci-fi. Through out the book I use a few minor swear words, shit, damn, hell, but not very often, and I'm happy with that. I think they are being used appropriately. But I haven't used the f word because I'm not fond of it. But I have a scene where the MC and her brother are having a falling out and he says "That didn't stop you from fucking an alien!" At which point she slaps him, even though he had a recent facial surgery. My concern is that I haven't used this word before, so it will be jarring, but I kind of want it to be. Just saying "you slept with" or "you had sex with" doesn't make the same impact and I want her to be pissed off. It needs to be implied that she was wrong for what she did from his perspective. Also, I'm considering her father using the f word when she shoots him in the foot, because, well, he just got shot in the foot. Once again, don't want it to be jarring in the wrong way since I haven't used it in the novel up until that point. There are only a few chapters left after the f bombs, and they'll be in the same chapter. Any thoughts?

I think considering the way you explained, they seem necessary in those instances. I say go for it!
 

Abisha

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 14, 2015
Messages
78
Reaction score
14
So I know we've talked about swearing in YA before, and I get the basic idea of if it fits the story. Using the f-bomb in a contemp ya about kids who would normally use it seems appropriate, but I'm questioning how I want to use it. I'm writing a YA sci-fi. Through out the book I use a few minor swear words, shit, damn, hell, but not very often, and I'm happy with that. I think they are being used appropriately. But I haven't used the f word because I'm not fond of it. But I have a scene where the MC and her brother are having a falling out and he says "That didn't stop you from fucking an alien!" At which point she slaps him, even though he had a recent facial surgery. My concern is that I haven't used this word before, so it will be jarring, but I kind of want it to be. Just saying "you slept with" or "you had sex with" doesn't make the same impact and I want her to be pissed off. It needs to be implied that she was wrong for what she did from his perspective. Also, I'm considering her father using the f word when she shoots him in the foot, because, well, he just got shot in the foot. Once again, don't want it to be jarring in the wrong way since I haven't used it in the novel up until that point. There are only a few chapters left after the f bombs, and they'll be in the same chapter. Any thoughts?

Agreeing with the others. I think it'd work fine in that situation, even if you hadn't used it before. It seems like the best way for him to word it to have the biggest impact and get her angry.
 

Ellaroni

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Messages
1,145
Reaction score
108
So I know we've talked about swearing in YA before, and I get the basic idea of if it fits the story. Using the f-bomb in a contemp ya about kids who would normally use it seems appropriate, but I'm questioning how I want to use it. I'm writing a YA sci-fi. Through out the book I use a few minor swear words, shit, damn, hell, but not very often, and I'm happy with that. I think they are being used appropriately. But I haven't used the f word because I'm not fond of it. But I have a scene where the MC and her brother are having a falling out and he says "That didn't stop you from fucking an alien!" At which point she slaps him, even though he had a recent facial surgery. My concern is that I haven't used this word before, so it will be jarring, but I kind of want it to be. Just saying "you slept with" or "you had sex with" doesn't make the same impact and I want her to be pissed off. It needs to be implied that she was wrong for what she did from his perspective. Also, I'm considering her father using the f word when she shoots him in the foot, because, well, he just got shot in the foot. Once again, don't want it to be jarring in the wrong way since I haven't used it in the novel up until that point. There are only a few chapters left after the f bombs, and they'll be in the same chapter. Any thoughts?

Sounds like you have considered the use of the F-word carefully for maximum effect, jtrylch!

I confess I use the f-word so much it's kind of turned into an everyday expletive in my books - but I'm very much affected by my Irish years. In St. Patrick's country (yay, celebrate today!) the f-word is almost a compliment in some ways... and used so frequently it doesn't sound so bad ;)
 

Sage

Currently titleless
Staff member
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2005
Messages
64,561
Reaction score
22,361
Age
43
Location
Cheering you all on!
I've often found "screwing" works as well when I'm talking about sex or being screwed, if you want to have a substitute.
 

jtrylch13

Has semi-colon; will use it!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
3,169
Reaction score
353
Location
Michigan
Yes, screwing! That's a good one I hadn't thought of. I'm going to stick with the f bomb for now, but if betas find it too offensive I'll definitely consider changing it to screwing. Oh, the conversations we authors have. I often think if taken out of context people would find us very strange. Er, stranger than they already think we are.