are you an outline writer or write by the seat of your pants?

I think a lot of the distinctions between pantsers and planners are arbitrary. How far ahead do you have to plan to be a planner? And don't most pansters have to at least choose where their character is before they put it down on paper? If you realize you have to look up some fact before you can place it in your book, aren't you doing 'research'?

There's a whole range of styles and approaches to writing that work for different people, but in the end they are all writers figuring out what they want to write and putting it down on paper. I'm not sure why many folks seem so determined to classify themselves and others. On the other hand, it's great to share your method, listen to other methods, play around and find what works the best for you.

I love to outline. Most my ideas center around a character arc, so I start with a beginning and ending. I rough out about a paragraph for each chapter and look at how they come together to see if it all works or if I need to add, subtract, or rearrange anything. Then I start writing and lots of things get changed in that process. When I'm done with a rough draft, I'll rewrite the summaries of each chapter and take a fresh look at it, often adding or subtracting more. Then it's time for other people's opinions. Seems to work for me.

BBBurke said:

I think a lot of the distinctions between pantsers and planners are arbitrary.

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I agree that it can be taken to pure silliness. I was once told (can't remember which forum) that merely thinking about the next paragraph meant I was indeed a planner, despite my protestations otherwise.

snowpea said:

I used to write on the fly with no outline at all. I've found that doesn't work for me because my novels have all fizzled out.... For the very first time I'm writing a real, detailed outline before I even begin writing the actual novel. It's actually really helping me.

So how do you do it?

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My answer:

First off, I'm currently working on a novella. Which is my first attempt, at writing something, that is so, so long (29,160 word length goal) for me.

And, after I created the first couple scene, I needed to make an outline, just to help me remember the topics that I had already covered, and as to where I thought the story might go next.

But, then after a while, I started spending so much time on it, that I no longer needed the outline anymore. Now, I'm pretty much finished with the story, but it came out 6,000 words less than my goal.

So, instead of forcing myself to create more scene's, I've just decided to start editing it. And, where I see fit, I'll embellish it and add to it too.

And how ever it comes out, it comes out. No matter the word length.

Oh, and on the topic, of using an outline or not. I guess my answer is yes and no.

For years I was an outliner, knew exactly every turn the plot would take before writing the actual story, and wrote extensive bios for damn near all my characters. This greatly helped me focus on structure and keep to certain expectations, not to mention page counts.

But the writing, in the end, all seemed forced. I forced my characters into serving the plot rather than allowing things to happen organically, if that makes sense. But years of this type of outline-first type of writing helped to cement the 3-act structure, along with subplots, to the point that they seemed to have become second-nature, though with varying degrees of success.

When I finally decided to attempt writing without all the pre-writing--no beat sheet, no character outlines--it was scary, but the most fun I've ever had writing. It was freeing not knowing what was going to happen next, almost like I was reading a new story myself, only I was the one writing it. That said, I couldn't have done that without first having written countless stories with outlines and character descriptions first. They somehow became ingrained in my mind and forced me to think in 3-act structure, and I doubt I could write stories now "off the cuff" had I not first started with outlines years back.

Don't get me wrong--I still have a considerable amount of pre-writing in mind before I put pen to paper. I know what the premise is, who some of the MCs are, and what the ending is likely to be, considering what I know about my characters. But it's all loosely in my head rather than being established ahead of time, concretely on paper. That makes the writing journey much more enjoyable and fascinating for me. It may work for others as well, or it may not. But having paid my dues in outlining has definitely set me up for more enjoyment when I now write without everything being figured out beforehand.

I started with a basic outline, a couple of pages, which has mostly gone out of the window now, and I'm just letting my WIP go where it wants. It is kept on track by its themes.

I don't think I'd ever have started if I had to plan it all, and doing it as you go along means you are constantly aware of the need to keep the reader interested.

There were supposed to be pants? I'm not sure I even have underwear!!

I write random scenes as they come to me, then stitch them together. Sometimes this results in a lot of notes when I can see surrounding or between-scene events but don't have the actual words yet; the notes often get fleshed directly into prose. So I guess the notes are actually a really sketchy first draft, not a form of outlining.

But outline, like, plan in advance? Never.

Jamesaritchie said:

Most of the unworkable stories our group encounters comes from the outliners.

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That's interesting... kinda on the same tack, in the rare case when I find myself discarding a bit of possible storyline, it's always from the interstitial notes, never from the story as written.

Jamesaritchie said:

I never outline, I never know what's going to happen on a page until I start writing that page <snip>

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Same here... each word, each sentence, each action follows from what came before. That makes it hold together, because regardless of how I got there, it's all woven from the same thread.

I write by the seat of my pants but haven't sold a novel yet. Not sure if that means anything or not. lol

I'm more comfortable writing by the seat of my pants. I've tried the outline world, and it doesn't work for me. I feel stifled by schedules. However, I do map out where I want to take my stories, usually in my head or as bullet points before the next chapter.

My problem is that, as a pantser, I went off half cocked. Because of this, the several iterations of my novel have suffered from overwriting, not starting in the best place for the action, and some irrelevant characters and scenes.

I was in a dead panic about how to revise this time, because yet another rewrite felt overwhelming. I listened to the crits of my betas and they were correct, but I remained unsure about how to address the problems. There was much flailing around, and time wasted writing stuff that was unusable, misguided, or downright bad in attempts to remedy the draft.

Writing a two page outline forced me to confront the dull parts and figure out tighten the story while still covering the important plot points. I figured a way to cut an unnecessary character and accelerate the exciting stuff. I'm hopeful that I will be able to cut the 10,000 words I want to in a painless fashion.

I'm not sure that this outline would have even been possible without the pantser draft. I needed to get it all out to see what the story was really about. So that's my answer to the question: I pants in the first stages, the outline for revision.

Spiral Jacobs said:

I'm not sure that this outline would have even been possible without the pantser draft. I needed to get it all out to see what the story was really about. So that's my answer to the question: I pants in the first stages, the outline for revision.

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Again, every writer is different, so what works for one may not for another.

But you and I must think alike. I put everything I can into the first draft, including lots of details about setting, characters, and action. I want to make sure it all hangs together, and includes everything important. And I have to work it out as I write the story. An outline would be totally useless, even blocking creativity.

BUT after the book is done, I've found an outline very useful in telling me what I need to cut out or slim down. Or, in a few cases, what I need to build up.

For me, I find that outlining too much sort of kills the excitement of writing for me. I end up thinking "Well, I already know everything that happens," and end up not writing the full novel.

I'm trying a new method where I just outline the premise, the background and a few major plot points that happen in the first half of the novel and just go from there. I'll probably stop halfway and do that again though, once I have a better idea of where the story is going.

No outline is great but after a while I find that I end up putting in too much chaff which slows down the whole story so I like to have the outline done in bullet points so that there is a guide to follow.

When I'm good and ready, I switch on my word processor at 6am. I write till 11am.

I start again at 6pm and stop at 10 pm or much later. My outlining consists of several sheets of paper listing the names of my characters, most of them anyway, but visitors are likely to come along.

I'm not ready to start again yet, the last one has taken too much out of me. I'm starting to worry.

I know the beginning and the end. Then I do maybe three plot points, a sentence each. But some of my plot points are, "he does something here to make this happen." What would that something be? Who the eff knows! So I guess pantser. I tried to outline but it was very frustrating.

Trying to do a very high level outline now because I have several plotlines running concurrently and trying not to make the middle implode on itself. Will fill in the blanks myself in between critical elements such as turning points and mid-point. We'll see how it goes.

I typically have an idea in my head of what's going to happen, but every time I've tried to outline a story, once I have it down on paper, I lose interest in the project. In my mind, the story has been told.

So, I loosely plan, but nothing hard and fast, otherwise the project is kaput for me.

snowpea said:

I used to write on the fly with no outline at all. I've found that doesn't work for me because my novels have all fizzled out.... For the very first time I'm writing a real, detailed outline before I even begin writing the actual novel. It's actually really helping me.

So how do you do it?

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no one calls your novel a fizzle and gets away with it.

I take notes for a few years on the book. Then i have a very general outline.
Then i write my first draft pretty raw. almost every time i sit down to write i write something completely different. i believe you subconscious writes a lot more of the book than we expect. it is only after reading your first draft that you find out what your book is really about.
so, my first draft usually does not have a sentence survive

Not much of an outliner. I have a general idea of the story, -and how it ends, but when I sit down to write I like to go where the day takes me.

I mostly do a loose outline.

I outline. I must know in what direction I am going or I will end up no where. For me in my writing life or in my real life the words "play it by ear" make me cringe.

Cathryn said:

I outline. I must know in what direction I am going or I will end up no where. For me in my writing life or in my real life the words "play it by ear" make me cringe.

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So, once you have your outline, are you still open to new ideas that may come along about eye-level as you fill it in? Or not?

This is a serious question, not meant as sarcasm. Terry Brooks is famously rigid about outlining everything, and fillling in the blanks. And he has been fantastically (pun intended) successful as a Fantasy writer.

How rigidly to you adhere to your outlines when you actually write the story?

caw

My method is to use a mix of pantsing and outlining. I start off with an idea for a premise and then come up with some cool dramatic scenes, typically the hook, the climax and some plot twists, and I'll write these scenes like a pantser. Then I'll step back and try to wrap these scenes into some sort of structure, and doing so will give me the ideas for a few more cool scenes so I will go and write them, and then look at how themes and characters develop in those scenes and go back to adapt the outline to fit this new information, and that will give me the ideas for more scenes, and so on until the book somehow ends up written. Somehow, it seems to work.

For my current WIP, I just yesterday finished out a 5,000 word plot and personal note section of where I want to go. Seeing as this is my first novel length story I want to tell, I'm not sure how it's going to go. I do feel a huge sense of accomplishment and direction. I'm much more comfortable proceeding. I have each chapter's synopsis written down with a special "goals" section, in point form, underneath. It's not something I'd ever release or give to anybody, but I feel it pretty much put the entire thing in concrete and aside from time factors, the novel is as good as complete.

I guess I'll wait and see how it goes.

I always outline. I used to try writing by the seat of my pants, but it never panned out. I outline the entire book, as many details as I can, before I actually start writing. This way, I can get all my thoughts down without having to actually incorporate them into the novel, or worry about writing them well. It also helps me to get ideas down when I'm on break at work, have a little time at home, etc...

I used to do this with all my school papers, too!

Pantster. And then I edit hard. Lots and lots of times. At some point the rigour has to kick in...