Songwriting advice?

SaveitForaRainyDay

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
179
Reaction score
12
Location
Never, Never Land
Okay...So one of my current novels is centered about the fame of a band, and I thought it would be kind of cool to include a few of their 'songs'. The only problem is that I am musically disabled. Any poetry/song attempt by me comes out as sounding like it was written by a five year old, and even that's pushing it.

I came here hoping to find some advice among experts in this field :D Seriously, how do you write half-decent songs? What's your process? And do you have any good advice for a musically disabled person like me, who has absolutely no sense of rhythm whatsoever?
 

msza45

New Fish; Stuck on the Dang Hook
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 10, 2014
Messages
438
Reaction score
57
Ha. I think you might be better off outsourcing these songs, especially if you don't play at least one instrument.

But one way to go about it, is this: look up a very prolific lyricist, and pick one of their songs at random. Make sure it is one you aren't familiar with. Copy and past the lyrics into a word document.

Now, go pick prolific songwriter, and chose a song at random. Also make sure you don't know the song. Copy and paste the chord tablature into the same word document.

Now, sing the lyrics to song A over the chords to song B. Do it over and over again until they start to mesh. When they do (this may take a few days), start to change the words and/or chords as you feel appropriate. Don't do anything major, just little changes when they pop into your head. Work on the same song for about a week, almost meditatively, and see how it goes.
 

SaveitForaRainyDay

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
179
Reaction score
12
Location
Never, Never Land
Ha. I think you might be better off outsourcing these songs, especially if you don't play at least one instrument.

But one way to go about it, is this: look up a very prolific lyricist, and pick one of their songs at random. Make sure it is one you aren't familiar with. Copy and past the lyrics into a word document.

Now, go pick prolific songwriter, and chose a song at random. Also make sure you don't know the song. Copy and paste the chord tablature into the same word document.

Now, sing the lyrics to song A over the chords to song B. Do it over and over again until they start to mesh. When they do (this may take a few days), start to change the words and/or chords as you feel appropriate. Don't do anything major, just little changes when they pop into your head. Work on the same song for about a week, almost meditatively, and see how it goes.

Well I did used to sing a bit, but other than that, yeah, I haven't really done anything :D

Thanks for the advice. Sounds really complex, though. I've definitely got my work cut out for me.
 

msza45

New Fish; Stuck on the Dang Hook
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 10, 2014
Messages
438
Reaction score
57
It's not as complex as it sounds. The benefit of doing it this way is that you won't have issues with sparseness of melody, which is probably the single biggest problem beginning songwriters have -- they just don't sing enough notes, so their melodies are boring.

Using lyrics from an established lyricist cuts that problem right out. Obviously, you'll have to rewrite them eventually, but a lot of times they just evolve on their own.
 

Maze Runner

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
5,489
Reaction score
609
I guess I'm missing something here, but you don't intend to write music as well as lyrics do you? I guess you could, and those who read music could go to their keyboard or guitar and see how it sounds. But I'd think that just lyrics would do.
 

SaveitForaRainyDay

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
179
Reaction score
12
Location
Never, Never Land
It's not as complex as it sounds. The benefit of doing it this way is that you won't have issues with sparseness of melody, which is probably the single biggest problem beginning songwriters have -- they just don't sing enough notes, so their melodies are boring.

Using lyrics from an established lyricist cuts that problem right out. Obviously, you'll have to rewrite them eventually, but a lot of times they just evolve on their own.

What do you mean using them from an established lyricist? Like actually using a real song created by someone else, and just rewriting? Could you actually do that? I guess you'd have to really, really rewrite them.

I guess I'm missing something here, but you don't intend to write music as well as lyrics do you? I guess you could, and those who read music could go to their keyboard or guitar and see how it sounds. But I'd think that just lyrics would do.

Yeah, I'm just intending to write lyrics. Christ, I can hardly write lyrics, I can't imagine how it would be to set it up on instruments too.
 

Maze Runner

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
5,489
Reaction score
609
My advice would be to think of one interesting idea and write around it. For example: You were brought up a rich boy and now you're struggling like the rest of us- Dylan's Like a Rolling Stone.

I've been on the road too long. I'm tired and feel like a stranger everywhere. Paul Simon's Homeward Bound.

Even simple ideas work in song. If you think about it, most song lyrics are very simple, about everyday occurrences that we can all relate to.

For example: You broke my heart before and I won't let you do it again. Lennon's Not a Second Time.

Speaking of Dylan, if you've listened to his music, his songs tend to go on and on. When I read his book, Chronicles (great book by the way) I learned that there were often another 5, 10 or more verses that didn't make the cut. I believe Leonard Cohen does this as well. So in that way, it's a lot like writing prose. You write and write and throw out what doesn't work or isn't as strong.

But think of any song, (I assume this is a rock band?) find the central idea, and see how one idea led to another.
 

SaveitForaRainyDay

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
179
Reaction score
12
Location
Never, Never Land
My advice would be to think of one interesting idea and write around it. For example: You were brought up a rich boy and now you're struggling like the rest of us- Dylan's Like a Rolling Stone.

I've been on the road too long. I'm tired and feel like a stranger everywhere. Paul Simon's Homeward Bound.

Even simple ideas work in song. If you think about it, most song lyrics are very simple, about everyday occurrences that we can all relate to.

For example: You broke my heart before and I won't let you do it again. Lennon's Not a Second Time.

Speaking of Dylan, if you've listened to his music, his songs tend to go on and on. When I read his book, Chronicles (great book by the way) I learned that there were often another 5, 10 or more verses that didn't make the cut. I believe Leonard Cohen does this as well. So in that way, it's a lot like writing prose. You write and write and throw out what doesn't work or isn't as strong.

But think of any song, (I assume this is a rock band?) find the central idea, and see how one idea led to another.

I already know what I want the song to be about and what it's going to be called, so I guess I've done the first step :D

Yes, it is a rock band, and thanks. I'm already trying to study a few songs from my favorite bands. The lyrics seem so simple and easy, but when it comes down to writing it I don't even know where to start.
 

Maze Runner

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
5,489
Reaction score
609
Try starting at the core of the idea and write outward. Given this (the core), what else would be true? Paint a full picture. Or if it has legs, tell the story.
 

onesecondglance

pretending to be awake
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
5,359
Reaction score
1,661
Location
Berkshire, UK
Website
soundcloud.com
"How do you write a song?"
"How do you write a novel?"

These things are pretty similar. There's no magic trick, no formula, and getting good at it takes a lot of practice.

Describe how the music makes the characters feel, not what it sounds like. Unless you know what you're doing, you'll likely come off somewhere between wannabe-NME hack and a music theory lecturer. Neither of these things will help your readers imagine the right thing.

As will including the first couple of songs you write. I'm trying not to be too harsh here, but even if you have natural talent, they will be the equivalent of the first stories you ever wrote. They will not be of the quality they deserve to be because you haven't learnt the ropes yet. All they'll be is at best a distraction for your audience; at worst, they'll break the fictive dream by being nothing like they'd imagined from your writing.

If you really want to learn to write songs, ditch the idea of incorporating it into this book and give it the space and time it deserves.
 

DarkSongofErrin

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
321
Reaction score
23
Location
Who knows
Yep, if you're just after lyrics. All you need is a great idea for the song, and them some great words to convey that idea. Pretty much the same as most writing.

I'm not an expert, but I usually start with an idea that I want the song to be about, and then work around that.

In your case you have to think about what sort of band they are, yes they're a rock band, but what kind of rock band?

Does one of the band members suffer from a form of addiction? Is this filtered into the lyrics? Is the band into folklore, is this filtered into the lyrics? Are they a political band? One of my favourite lyrics is "**** you I wont do what ya tell me!" Simple but effective.
 
Last edited:

HeavyAirship

Aboard my phaneron.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
269
Reaction score
27
The best songwriting advice I ever got was to write a song every day. It doesn't matter if it's good or if it makes sense just do it. You will train your brain and after a little bit you will be able to write songs with ease. It has really helped me and you will be surprised at some of the stuff you come up with when you just force it out of yourself.

Or

The main songwriter for Oasis got started by coming up with new lyrics to songs he heard on the radio. So take Hey Jude or Crazy Train and just put your own words into it and there you go.