Do you have a right to privacy (and to call Obama a "nigger?")

Williebee

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Willibe, I have an example of "public" vs "PUBLIC" when it comes to saying what you want with less consequences vs. more. It comes down to audience. (Edited for brevity.)

It's been long since lost in the flow of the discussion, but yeah, I agree. There is public and there is PUBLIC. What I'm suggesting (or thought I was suggesting) is that the speaker/poster bears the same responsibility and ownership for/of their words, regardless of what size of "public" they put them out to.

That the posters in the OP did or did not consider how "public" their postings (were) may be debated -- their awareness of how Twitter and Facebook works, how they thought their settings were configured, etc., but they still bear the responsibility for them, just as they would if they had written them in a note, passed it to a buddy, and someone else found it and taped it on bulletin board. The degrees of damage may change, the responsibility for the words themselves would not.
 
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Celia Cyanide

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There are many forms of intimidation. If they wanted to engage these idiots, why not do it where the remarks were made?

Many people probably did. Some just compiled them all and put them in one place. Now people can visit their twitter and engage them if they missed the comments the first time around.

My whole view is that, regardless of how disgusting one finds another's views, they have a right to hold those views and voice them. And despite how much we would like to beat the shit out of them for it, that doesn't make it right to do so.

That is a complete miscategorization of everything we've said. None of us have stated that they don't have their right to their "views," or that it would be right to beat the shit out of them for it. That is NOT what this tumblr is saying at all.

Not only that, but as I stated earlier, you can't force anyone to change their views. You can, however, force them into silence and resentment, which, in the end, only makes the problem worse.

You can't force them into silence. If they get embarassed into silence, that's their own damn problem. You shouldn't shout anything from twitter you're going to be embarassed about. That's just the way it is.
 

shadowwalker

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Would you feel the same if someone was shouting racist insults from a street corner, so someone else gathered their friends, went back, and "engaged" them?

If someone is standing on a street corner and others stop to argue with what they're saying, I have no problem with that. If those other people go to the town hall and start telling everyone they see what's being said, and pointing out where the 'street corner' folks live, inciting others to berate them, then I'd have a problem. Then it becomes an attempt to intimidate into silence.

You can't force them into silence. If they get embarassed into silence, that's their own damn problem. You shouldn't shout anything from twitter you're going to be embarassed about. That's just the way it is.

I don't imagine they were embarrassed when they posted those things. I would think that having a ton of people coming down on top of them would not necessarily embarrass them, but cow them into silence. "Cow them" is another phrase for intimidation.

I don't know. I guess for members of a writers community to think this kind of retaliation is okay just confuses the hell out of me. Hopefully none of us will write anything that doesn't sit well with ... well, whomever decides they can tell others what to think write.

Anyway...
 

missesdash

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If someone is standing on a street corner and others stop to argue with what they're saying, I have no problem with that. If those other people go to the town hall and start telling everyone they see what's being said, and pointing out where the 'street corner' folks live, inciting others to berate them, then I'd have a problem. Then it becomes an attempt to intimidate into silence.

I don't imagine they were embarrassed when they posted those things. I would think that having a ton of people coming down on top of them would not necessarily embarrass them, but cow them into silence. "Cow them" is another phrase for intimidation.

I don't know. I guess for members of a writers community to think this kind of retaliation is okay just confuses the hell out of me. Hopefully none of us will write anything that doesn't sit well with ... well, whomever decides they can tell others what to think write.

Anyway...

If I wrote something that others found offensive and they posted it with a link to my twitter account, I wouldn't feel like they were trying to "intimidate" me. I think you may be overstating how a member of the oversharing generation feels when someone reposts the same info they will literally enter anywhere for any reason.

These aren't ten year old kids. A lot of the more incendiary comments on twitter are specifically so they'll get retweets and replies. There is no difference, for a lot of people, between somewhat negative and somewhat positive attention on the internet. The blog will gain them followers. Any platform does.

It's not retaliation because no one is being punished. They're being amplified.
 

Williebee

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I guess for members of a writers community to think this kind of retaliation is okay just confuses the hell out of me. Hopefully none of us will write anything that doesn't sit well with ... well, whomever decides they can tell others what to think write.

The actions of the tumblr creator may, or may not have been "retaliation." On the surface, it is just exposure, but they might have been victimized by one of the folks they outed. But I do take your point. I think NT expressed it pretty well upthread, as well.

As for the bolded part, I kinda hope a bunch of us do. :)
 

Celia Cyanide

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I don't imagine they were embarrassed when they posted those things.

No, probably not. Perhaps they are now. They certainly should be.

I don't know. I guess for members of a writers community to think this kind of retaliation is okay just confuses the hell out of me.

I really don't get your point. Is there any kind of retaliation you feel would be acceptable? You just don't get to say whatever you want without conseqence. That's just not the way life is.

Hopefully none of us will write anything that doesn't sit well with ... well, whomever decides they can tell others what to think write.

Nobody decided they could tell others what to think. Or write. They decided they didn't like something someone else said. And anybody can do that.
 

fireluxlou

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If someone is standing on a street corner and others stop to argue with what they're saying, I have no problem with that. If those other people go to the town hall and start telling everyone they see what's being said, and pointing out where the 'street corner' folks live, inciting others to berate them, then I'd have a problem. Then it becomes an attempt to intimidate into silence.

I don't imagine they were embarrassed when they posted those things. I would think that having a ton of people coming down on top of them would not necessarily embarrass them, but cow them into silence. "Cow them" is another phrase for intimidation.

I don't know. I guess for members of a writers community to think this kind of retaliation is okay just confuses the hell out of me. Hopefully none of us will write anything that doesn't sit well with ... well, whomever decides they can tell others what to think write.

Anyway...

Your comments sound very like we should all just shrug and get on with things and take their racism (as their rights to be racist is more important than anything and that you should never retaliate to racism, from what I read), like white privilege. I suppose.
 

Chrissy

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Well, perhaps we're having a definitional argument. In Australia, among people my age, bullying is used to describe abusive or brow-beating behaviour - one aspect of which can be the kind of playground bullying you mentioned, another of which would be the sending out of abusive texts about people based on their skin colour or race or gender among other things. But it's possibly a more specific thing where you are, so I won't harp on.
I agree with that definition, but in my mind, it wouldn't just be one text, or a 5-minute twitter conversation. It would be harrassment. The idea of bullying is that the victim wants it to stop and can't make the bully stop. To me. That's how I've always looked at it. It's not just an angry conversation between two people where insults are being thrown around.


They are talking about Obama, Chrissy. Do you really think that hashtags about Obama on twitter don't get much play? Do you think that people don't do web searches for Obama all the time? He's the President of the United States. If you say something about him on Twitter, people will see it.

In short, chances are very good.
Okay, well, I stand corrected on that. I don't do the tweet thing, but I thought people mostly followed their friends and celebrities or whatever.

I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that using that kind of language (the language being used on twitter) to someone's face would be considered "fighting words."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words

In my experience, people who do not mean to threaten anyone with physical violence do not talk that way, no matter how racist they might be.
This is just crazy to me. But I'm no fighter. I was hit almost daily for the first 16 years of my life, and in my house, we don't hit people. EVER. Not for ANY reason.
 

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If someone is standing on a street corner and others stop to argue with what they're saying, I have no problem with that. If those other people go to the town hall and start telling everyone they see what's being said, and pointing out where the 'street corner' folks live, inciting others to berate them, then I'd have a problem. Then it becomes an attempt to intimidate into silence.



I don't imagine they were embarrassed when they posted those things. I would think that having a ton of people coming down on top of them would not necessarily embarrass them, but cow them into silence. "Cow them" is another phrase for intimidation.

I don't know. I guess for members of a writers community to think this kind of retaliation is okay just confuses the hell out of me. Hopefully none of us will write anything that doesn't sit well with ... well, whomever decides they can tell others what to think write.

Anyway...

Telling others what you think of what they think is nothing more than sharing information. It is not bullying or retaliation unless it goes farther than that, into name-calling or slurs, etc.

Granted, it's often a stalemate. So I told my racist handyman how I feel. He explains how he feels. We both think we're right, so maybe I don't need to even bother expressing myself. Sometimes I don't.

But I think it's important, overall. Yes, I think folks can be wrong. I don't agree with all of the moral equivalency that gets thrown around. I know that folks can take that into stupid places, and that is a risk: my morals may not stand up to scrutiny, either. But I'm not going to pretend that things like racism are just opinions, as good as any other opinion. I strongly disagree with that, and I believe in having a voice. It's a beautiful thing to be able to have a voice on many of these issues.

We're talking about things that folks weren't even allowed to voice because of actual oppression. I can't take that progress against oppression in stride, and I will voice my beliefs. So my racist handyman won't care about any of it. All of the collective voices calling for change did help and do still help. Sometimes the collective voices are the oppressors, too. That's life. But, imho, it's not the words that are the problem; it's what else oppressors do.

Simply put, I follow the 'fight (speak) for what you believe in' idea. Not speaking out has its own problems for society, for sure. Please don't ignore that part in the whole equation.
 

shadowwalker

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Simply put, I follow the 'fight (speak) for what you believe in' idea. Not speaking out has its own problems for society, for sure. Please don't ignore that part in the whole equation.

I'm not saying - ever - that one shouldn't confront racism or racist statements. But I don't agree with the lynch mob mentality either. Those kids should have been confronted - on their twitter or wherever they posted - but gathering it all together in another place, getting people who wouldn't have seen it if not for that gathering (and thus would not have been affected one way or the other by it) - that's what I have a problem with. Just as I have a problem with gathering a gang together to go after a reviewer. People shouldn't be afraid to voice their opinions and views - ready to accept that some people won't like it, of course, but this? If it's not right to do it to a reviewer, it's not right to do it to anyone.
 

mccardey

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I'm not saying - ever - that one shouldn't confront racism or racist statements. But I don't agree with the lynch mob mentality either. Those kids should have been confronted - on their twitter or wherever they posted - but gathering it all together in another place, getting people who wouldn't have seen it if not for that gathering (and thus would not have been affected one way or the other by it) - that's what I have a problem with. Just as I have a problem with gathering a gang together to go after a reviewer. People shouldn't be afraid to voice their opinions and views - ready to accept that some people won't like it, of course, but this? If it's not right to do it to a reviewer, it's not right to do it to anyone.

We're all affected by racism.

But having said that, I think I'd have rather they'd found a way to respond that wasn't mimicking the lynch squad. I think. thebloodfiend is turning me round on this, because she knows much more than I do about how people her age view this kind of thing.
 
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Celia Cyanide

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I'm not saying - ever - that one shouldn't confront racism or racist statements. But I don't agree with the lynch mob mentality either. Those kids should have been confronted - on their twitter or wherever they posted - but gathering it all together in another place, getting people who wouldn't have seen it if not for that gathering (and thus would not have been affected one way or the other by it) - that's what I have a problem with. Just as I have a problem with gathering a gang together to go after a reviewer. People shouldn't be afraid to voice their opinions and views - ready to accept that some people won't like it, of course, but this? If it's not right to do it to a reviewer, it's not right to do it to anyone.

So you think it's okay to confront them, as long as you don't show anybody else what they said? Not how twitter works. With one click, you can retweet something to all your followers, even if you don't follow that person. If you look under trending topics, you can find thousands of people you don't know tweeting about that topic. Anybody using twitter knows this.

If you are tweeting about something as widely known as the President, you're going to get attention, and it's usually because you want it. You can't get upset when it happens.
 

mccardey

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Not how twitter works. With one click, you can retweet something to all your followers, even if you don't follow that person. If you look under trending topics, you can find thousands of people you don't know tweeting about that topic. Anybody using twitter knows this.

If you are tweeting about something as widely known as the President, you're going to get attention, and it's usually because you want it.
Exactly. And these kids know that. And that's why, for me, this kind of thing comes under the heading of bullying. It's not standing in a playground and shouting out vile things. It's standing in a playground with your friends behind you, shouting out vile things and saying "Put up your hand if you agree with me." While the targetted people either look on or move on.

Which I would call bullying.
 

shadowwalker

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So you think it's okay to confront them, as long as you don't show anybody else what they said?

That's not what I said. Gathering a gang to deal with those whose views you disagree with - that's what I object to. And what writers here disagreed with when it concerned reviewers.
 

shadowwalker

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It's standing in a playground with your friends behind you, shouting out vile things and saying "Put up your hand if you agree with me." While the targetted people either look on or move on.

And then other people gather their gang and shout vile things back. So you have two gangs shouting back and forth at each other, and whichever one can get the most members wins. Except nobody wins. Nobody's mind gets changed, nobody even stops to think about what's going on. It's all anger, nothing more. And in the end, everybody wanders away, nothing resolved.
 

mccardey

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And then other people gather their gang and shout vile things back. So you have two gangs shouting back and forth at each other, and whichever one can get the most members wins. Except nobody wins. Nobody's mind gets changed, nobody even stops to think about what's going on. It's all anger, nothing more. And in the end, everybody wanders away, nothing resolved.

Which is why I said that getting an authority (school or uni) involved would be a better response. But surely the worst response is to say to the targets "Oh, don't make a fuss. Nothing is ever solved by making fuss."

You're asking a lot of the targetted people.
 

fireluxlou

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That's not what I said. Gathering a gang to deal with those whose views you disagree with - that's what I object to. And what writers here disagreed with when it concerned reviewers.
And then other people gather their gang and shout vile things back. So you have two gangs shouting back and forth at each other, and whichever one can get the most members wins. Except nobody wins. Nobody's mind gets changed, nobody even stops to think about what's going on. It's all anger, nothing more. And in the end, everybody wanders away, nothing resolved.
TBH that is how women won rights and that's how PoC got their rights in the 50s/60s and thats how LGBT* are gaining their rights now, no one just sat back against injustices against views they disagreed with and let it slide. Many of my forebears stood in a crowd, getting their voices heard against people who they disagreed with, fighting for a right to have the same rights.

Being passive, that's not how rights are won. People do win, the people who are being oppressed hopefully they do win.

This passiveness, this apathy to fighting for what is right, to me, is worrying.
 

K.L. Bennett

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And then other people gather their gang and shout vile things back. So you have two gangs shouting back and forth at each other, and whichever one can get the most members wins. Except nobody wins. Nobody's mind gets changed, nobody even stops to think about what's going on. It's all anger, nothing more. And in the end, everybody wanders away, nothing resolved.

I don't know how you can be so sure that nobody's mind gets changed. Maybe one, or two, or more of the racists see the actual fallout from their words, reflect on why it is they said those words in the first place, and then reexamine their views. Maybe they realize they don't really believe the things they said, and were just parroting what their parents or peers have said. Maybe this is the first time they learn what it means to own their words, that words really do have the power to hurt or enrage others.

I lost your argument pages ago, though, to be honest. I feel like we didn't read the same OP. You keep talking about retaliation, which I don't see. Plenty of public shaming, which is a good thing, IMO, but nothing intentionally nasty or retaliatory. And I don't get your constant references to other writers/reviewers, so I can't comment there (must have been a thread I didn't participate in).

I just don't understand why you're going to the lengths you are to defend racist asshats, minors or not. No one is saying these kids have no right to say what they want to say, vile as it is, but you seem to be saying the only proper way to respond to it is the way that you would respond to it.

I don't want this kind of bullshit in the world I live in anymore. It doesn't belong, and it sickens me to know, to be reminded like this, that it persists to this degree in the younger generations. So if someone else thinks that tumblr pages of aggregated racist remarks will help shine a light into the darkness, then I say have at it.
 

shadowwalker

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I just don't understand why you're going to the lengths you are to defend racist asshats, minors or not.

I am not defending racist asshats. I'm saying that ganging up on anyone whose views disagree with your own is not the way to do things.

But it always comes down to that, doesn't it? Us against them, and if you don't like what one group does, that automatically means you agree with the other group. No way it could mean you think both groups are wrong.
 

mccardey

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But it always comes down to that, doesn't it? Us against them, and if you don't like what one group does, that automatically means you agree with the other group. No way it could mean you think both groups are wrong.

No-one has said that. I've said all along that I think there needs to be some response, but I'm not convinced (yet) that the tumblr response is the way to go. And lots of people have said the same.

The thing I'm saying is that the worst response in my opinion would be no response.

If you're saying there should be no response, then yes - in my view at least you'd be lining up with the right of the asshats to do what they're doing; but that would be my take on your response. I'd expect other people could disagree with both tumblr and the racist asshats - and also with my take on your response.
 

K.L. Bennett

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I am not defending racist asshats. I'm saying that ganging up on anyone whose views disagree with your own is not the way to do things.

I don't see it as "ganging up" on them, considering the nature of the medium they used to express their views in the first place.
 

icerose

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I'm not saying - ever - that one shouldn't confront racism or racist statements. But I don't agree with the lynch mob mentality either. Those kids should have been confronted - on their twitter or wherever they posted - but gathering it all together in another place, getting people who wouldn't have seen it if not for that gathering (and thus would not have been affected one way or the other by it) - that's what I have a problem with. Just as I have a problem with gathering a gang together to go after a reviewer. People shouldn't be afraid to voice their opinions and views - ready to accept that some people won't like it, of course, but this? If it's not right to do it to a reviewer, it's not right to do it to anyone.

So you don't agree with newspapers, news, and blogs? Because that's what they are. They are taking information and posting it elsewhere. Some of it makes a person look bad, or rather exposes them for the twits they are.
 

Chrissy

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So you don't agree with newspapers, news, and blogs? Because that's what they are. They are taking information and posting it elsewhere. Some of it makes a person look bad, or rather exposes them for the twits they are.
This just made me think of something. I have to sign a permission form every year for the school, to say it's okay for my kids pictures to be taken and/or posted in newspapers or yearbooks or whatever. If someone publishes a picture of my minor child without my permission, I think that would be illegal, yes?
 

mccardey

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This just made me think of something. I have to sign a permission form every year for the school, to say it's okay for my kids pictures to be taken and/or posted in newspapers or yearbooks or whatever. If someone publishes a picture of my minor child without my permission, I think that would be illegal, yes?

Probably depends on whether your child put that photo up on the internet first...

I would think. I don't know about this stuff.