Writing basics - paying it forward

Carmen Baxter · Oct 19, 2014

Please don't read. This discussion is over.

Right guys.

I'm working on a little project and need your collaboration. If you're a writer and interested in "giving back," please read this post. Don't worry if you're not. We come in different models. Doesn't make you a bad person.

After a great deal of beta reading, it's become clear some writers struggle with the basics. So to help them out, I wrote guides of 2 or 3 pages each on organizing text, Deep POV etc. Examples, tricks of the trade, you know what I'm talking about. All four of my 'test subjects' have gone crazy over these guides and suggested I get going on turning passive voice active, and weaving descriptions in the right way, and especially emotions. To name but a few (seriously!). They want them, and they want them now.

Please help me out. Different writers make suitable teachers of different topics and I don't want to short-change the next generation. These new writers need deep insight, and you might have it. Just something to kickstart their writing adventure. I know many of you detest how-to books. That is your prerogative. These guides, and this post, are not aimed at you. But I hope some of you believe there are some rules writers should know, if only to break them.

Feel like helping me out? I'd be grateful if you agreed to contribute a guide. Two or three pages on a subject of your choice (from the craft to entering contests to finding help to plotting to...), to be finished by February 2015. Or you could agree to read a few of the guides when they're ready. Every little helps.

This project is important. Most books rake over the same few topics, but not many provide advice you can put to use straight away. And new writers are feeling it. At some point, someone helped you out, I'm sure of it. Now is your chance to pay it forward. If you're interested, contact me and I'll send more info.

Thank you.
Carmen

Osulagh · Oct 19, 2014

Pay it forward? Sorry if I sound cynical here, but a lot of this post reads like a promotional.

You're asking people--random people with or without any experience or any way to tell they have wisdom in writing--to write guides. For what? You're going to publish a single, or multiple guides? Are you going to charge people for them? Are you going to have the blind pay to be led by the blind?

There's already great books out there on writing. Both that contain a lot of general surface information, and that dwell deeper into a certain subject. Then, there's millions of posts online--for free--saying the same thing. Many of this written by people who have knowledge on the subject. What are you going to do different?

Let's take this for example: You said, "suggested I get going on turning passive voice active" which you can look everywhere for. The Elements of Style by Strunk and White gives a good explanation of that. You can google it. General grammar guides have this. And, of course, it's not all about changing passive voice to active for storytelling. Both have their great uses--and if you don't know this, then you're not fit IMO to teach anyone about this subject.

You want to pay it forward? Help people out in the SYW section. Answer question threads. Beta-read.

EMaree · Oct 19, 2014

Osulagh said:
Pay it forward? Sorry if I sound cynical here, but a lot of this post reads like a promotional.

You're asking people--random people with or without any experience or any way to tell they have wisdom in writing--to write guides. For what? You're going to publish a single, or multiple guides? Are you going to charge people for them? Are you going to have the blind pay to be led by the blind?

There's already great books out there on writing. Both that contain a lot of general surface information, and that dwell deeper into a certain subject. Then, there's millions of posts online--for free--saying the same thing. Many of this written by people who have knowledge on the subject. What are you going to do different?

Let's take this for example: You said, "suggested I get going on turning passive voice active" which you can look everywhere for. The Elements of Style by Strunk and White gives a good explanation of that. You can google it. General grammar guides have this. And, of course, it's not all about changing passive voice to active for storytelling. Both have their great uses--and if you don't know this, then you're not fit IMO to teach anyone about this subject.

You want to pay it forward? Help people out in the SYW section. Answer question threads. Beta-read.

Yeah, all of this. ^

This post should be in Nonpaying markets. You're asking people to provide original work for free, but you're obscuring what you're asking for by putting it in the wrong forum and and dressing it up as a grand act of kindness to newbie writers.

I'm sure you started out with good intentions, helping inexperienced writers, but by using emotional pleas like "[not doing this] doesn't make you a bad person" and being vague about what you plan to do with the completed guide. The hard deadline of February 2015 makes me think you plan on publishing this collection, and if you're making a profit on the work of others then your intentions come across as... less than good.

Carmen Fox said:
Right guys.

I'm working on a little project and need your collaboration. If you're a writer and interested in "giving back," please read this post. Don't worry if you're not. We come in different models. Doesn't make you a bad person.

After a great deal of beta reading, it's become clear some writers struggle with the basics. So to help them out, I wrote guides of 2 or 3 pages each on organizing text, Deep POV etc. Examples, tricks of the trade, you know what I'm talking about. All four of my 'test subjects' have gone crazy over these guides and suggested I get going on turning passive voice active, and weaving descriptions in the right way, and especially emotions. To name but a few (seriously!). They want them, and they want them now.

Please help me out. Different writers make suitable teachers of different topics and I don't want to short-change the next generation. These new writers need deep insight, and you might have it. Just something to kickstart their writing adventure. I know many of you detest how-to books. That is your prerogative. These guides, and this post, are not aimed at you. But I hope some of you believe there are some rules writers should know, if only to break them.

Feel like helping me out? I'd be grateful if you agreed to contribute a guide. Two or three pages on a subject of your choice (from the craft to entering contests to finding help to plotting to...), to be finished by February 2015. Or you could agree to read a few of the guides when they're ready. Every little helps.

This project is important. Most books rake over the same few topics, but not many provide advice you can put to use straight away. And new writers are feeling it. At some point, someone helped you out, I'm sure of it. Now is your chance to pay it forward. If you're interested, contact me and I'll send more info.

Thank you.
Carmen

Sonsofthepharaohs · Oct 19, 2014

If you want to direct new writers towards guides on things like avoiding passive writing, weaving in descriptions etc., you could do no better than to direct them to this site and acquaint them with the little search bar at the bottom left of every page.

mirandashell · Oct 19, 2014

Yeah.... the whole passive-aggressive first paragraph put me off.

And we definitely need more detail on how newbies will get access to these 'guides'. Will they pay for them? Who gets the payments? Are they downloaded from a site? Who gets the credit for the work? What if a publisher sees them and thinks they are a great idea and wants some more? How are you going to sort that out? What about pub rights? What about reissues?

Just a few questions off the top of my head.......

Reziac · Oct 19, 2014

Carmen Fox said:
... and suggested I get going on turning passive voice active...

Um. Passive voice is a perfectly legitimate and often necessary grammatical construction. It is not something that "needs" to be "turned active".

Passive writing that just lays there like a limp noodle, that's a different problem.

Carmen Baxter · Oct 19, 2014

Uh. I'm stunned. That shows me. This isn't for paying or for publishing. Did I say that? I'm not asking anyone to provide original work so I can fleece you. I'm sorry if anything sounded passive aggressive. I was honestly trying to do something good. I was hoping to bundle everthing together so that everyone who contributed could pass it on if anyone you know is interested. Perhaps I didn't think it through, or word it right or... You know what? It's not even worth it. I'm genuinely sorry you automatically assume the worst of people.

As for directing people to this page, heck I'm never coming back here. I'm not going to subject someone else to this. Wow. You actually have me really scared now.

Please, read through your messages again and imagine the impact of your words.

stormie · Oct 19, 2014

I dunno. I read through this and didn't see any bullying. Just legit questions.

Carmen Baxter · Oct 19, 2014

Maybe I'm too sensitive. You're right, of course. I'm passive aggressive, I'm not fit to teach, I ask people to provide original work for free (because I'm a scam artist, guys), and I want to put a cap on how much of my time I want to spend on the project for some nefarious reasons I'm not telling you about. It's all true.

See? Now I'm being passive aggressive.

Can you not for a second assume I was being genuine, and how all of this sounds to me? You can't, can you?

I don't have all the answers. I need to learn more, and I hope I'll never lose that desire to learn more. That's why I take courses and read books. But you don't care about that, do you?

Sigh. You win. The project is dead. I will continue beta reading if people still appreciate my help, and if they have questions, I will continue to try and help to the best of my abilities.

mirandashell · Oct 19, 2014

Rebekkamaria · Oct 19, 2014

I was reading elsewhere about bullying on this site, and I was confused about that because I've seen all kinds of threads and people arguing over things, but I've never seen bullying. Yes, some people are blunt about things, but that's internet.

I've been a part of the internet for over 16 years, and based on that knowledge, this isn't bullying. It's asking why contribution is needed from writers and for what purpose. In the field of writing it's generally good to be a bit suspicious about things because of all the scams out there. This site is already full of knowledge about writing, good knowledge that first timers can easily access. So the question "why" is valid. It's not bullying.

mirandashell · Oct 19, 2014

Ok. Had a few minutes to think and I'm still a little shocked....

Have a look at it from our point of view. This is a writers board. A lot of people here are professional writers. They earn money from writing. Money they use to pay their bills.

And you post saying that you want us to write articles for free. For a purpose you don't properly explain, insinuating that people who don't want to are not nice people. Kind of like going to a shop and asking the owner, who has never met you before, to give you free food cos you're a really nice person and you want to give it to other people so that they will think you're a nice person too.

And when that didn't go over too well, you threw a tantrum in the middle of the shop.

Fair enough. Now we know where we all stand.

I'll pass, thanks.

Carmen Baxter · Oct 19, 2014

I'm sorry. I meant people who are busy, or shy, or don't feel comfortable doing this shouldn't feel bad. And yes, I wasn't bullied. I felt bullied, but that doesn't count. And I didn't expect anyone to write for me for free. I asked if anyone was interested. I set out the outline of an idea I had and invited people to ask for more information. No one did.

This has gone horribly wrong. A simple idea. See if anyone wants to help out.

EMaree · Oct 19, 2014

Hm. I was quite careful about my response, because hell, your intentions were good and I hoped you just didn't realise you were trying to force writers into working for free...

But your responses continue the trend of emotionally manipulative wording and woe-is-me rhetorical questions, along with dramatic talk about how you're not fit to teach and the project is "dead", which makes me think you know fine well what you're doing:

Carmen Fox said:
You're right, of course. I'm passive aggressive, I'm not fit to teach, I ask people to provide original work for free (because I'm a scam artist, guys), and I want to put a cap on how much of my time I want to spend on the project for some nefarious reasons I'm not telling you about. It's all true.

[snip]

Can you not for a second assume I was being genuine, and how all of this sounds to me? You can't, can you?

I don't have all the answers. I need to learn more, and I hope I'll never lose that desire to learn more. That's why I take courses and read books. But you don't care about that, do you?

Sigh. You win. The project is dead. I will continue beta reading if people still appreciate my help, and if they have questions, I will continue to try and help to the best of my abilities.

In my humble opinion, you're deliberately trying to stir up emotions, just like you were in your original post, and now you're getting defensive because writers (who work with words and know these tricks) have seen straight through it. But I truly hope I'm wrong.

Writing posts about the forum on your blog * instead of engaging with the forum members here doesn't seem like a promising move, though.

*Techie gibberish: I've used 'Do Not Link' here to avoid influencing this post's search engine rankings, as linking to a blog on AW can cause a lot of bot interest. This isn't a comment on the content itself. If you'd prefer not to use this service the link is

Code:

http://[W W W].carmen-fox[DOT COM]/2014/10/19/kindness-dead-just-overrated/

Carmen Baxter · Oct 19, 2014

No, I'm leaving Absolute Write. Yes, I became defensive, and I'm still feeling that way. Because it was suggested I'm not fit to teach, and that I'm doing something unethical. I was upset. Teary. Wondering where I'd gone wrong. Feeling sorry for myself. So I wrote about my experience on my blog. I'll take that down, too.

Jo Zebedee · Oct 19, 2014

You know, I'm a nice chap who writes a lot and is waiting for edits so has a bit (a small bit) of time and might have been one who stepped up to the plate if I'd been sure what the guides would be used for, where, and that the correct protocols were in place to safeguard me. Now - nope... Sorry, but blogging because you took responses the wrong way (and I'm the first to call out bullying) - how do I know if things went sour between us I wouldn't be slated in public?

It's a nice idea but you're asking a favour of people, first and foremost. And to get a favour requires goodwill...

But it sounds a nice project and I hope it goes well for you.

Carmen Baxter · Oct 19, 2014

Turns out I can't delete my account. Never mind.

Carmen Baxter · Oct 19, 2014

Springs2 said:
But it sounds a nice project and I hope it goes well for you.

Thank you. That's kind to say. I wasn't kidding. There is no more project. I'll keep on writing my little guides. In case you're wondering, they're just some tricks and advice I picked up over the years, with titles of books and links in case the writer wants more information.

Everything was supposed to be made available to new writers who were interested. At no cost, so yes, I hoped everyone would agree to pitch in for free. There were no expectations, I wasn't forcing anyone, and I did ask people who might be interested to contact me for more info, which nobody did.

I'm sorry it became heated. I was feeling attacked and went on the defense. Again, I'm not saying anyone attacked me, only that I was feeling attacked. So I did what I always do. I wrote a blog post. I named no names. I told no one not to use this forum. But I have now deleted the post, too. I'm in the process of wiping myself off this forum as best as I can.

It's just not for me. I'm sorry for starting this mess.

EMaree · Oct 19, 2014

Carmen Fox said:
Because it was suggested I'm not fit to teach

But Carmen, nobody said this anywhere in the thread?

Sonsofthepharaohs · Oct 19, 2014

Carmen Fox said:
Turns out I can't delete my account. Never mind.

Don't worry, the flounce wasn't that memorable. We'll forget you in a heartbeat.

EMaree · Oct 19, 2014

I've screenshot-ed the blog post in case any mods need it (it was nothing too aggressive, really, just "IS KINDNESS DEAD OR JUST OVERRATED?" and more details about the project than Carmen ever bothered to tell us) but I won't post it over here to avoid any more hurt feelings.

gettingby · Oct 19, 2014

You don't have to leave AW over this unless you want to. People asking about your skills is a relevant question. I would want to know how qualified the person writing a guide book was before I read it even if it's free. If you want to continue your project, you can. If you don't, you don't have to. Asking people to do some of the writing without the details does send off a red flag. I think that is all people were trying to say here.

jaksen · Oct 19, 2014

Carmen Fox said:
Thank you. That's kind to say. I wasn't kidding. There is no more project. I'll keep on writing my little guides. In case you're wondering, they're just some tricks and advice I picked up over the years, with titles of books and links in case the writer wants more information.

Everything was supposed to be made available to new writers who were interested. At no cost, so yes, I hoped everyone would agree to pitch in for free. There were no expectations, I wasn't forcing anyone, and I did ask people who might be interested to contact me for more info, which nobody did.

I'm sorry it became heated. I was feeling attacked and went on the defense. Again, I'm not saying anyone attacked me, only that I was feeling attacked. So I did what I always do. I wrote a blog post. I named no names. I told no one not to use this forum. But I have now deleted the post, too. I'm in the process of wiping myself off this forum as best as I can.

It's just not for me. I'm sorry for starting this mess.

Well you did expect a certain reaction and when you didn't get it, THEN you got defensive. Seriously, you asked someone to rethink their posts and the impact that they have...

You should do the same.

BenPanced · Oct 19, 2014

Carmen Fox said:
Everything was supposed to be made available to new writers who were interested. At no cost, so yes, I hoped everyone would agree to pitch in for free. There were no expectations, I wasn't forcing anyone, and I did ask people who might be interested to contact me for more info, which nobody did.

But they did ask for more clarification on your intent. If you're setting up a project and asking for people to participate, you should have expected questions if somebody wasn't sure what was going on or needed.

Carmen Fox said:
I'm sorry it became heated. I was feeling attacked and went on the defense. Again, I'm not saying anyone attacked me, only that I was feeling attacked. So I did what I always do. I wrote a blog post. I named no names. I told no one not to use this forum. But I have now deleted the post, too. I'm in the process of wiping myself off this forum as best as I can.

It's just not for me. I'm sorry for starting this mess.

And being an author means owning your words. If you decided to go through AW and delete your posts, you'll leave long confusing gaps in the conversations where people haven't used the QUOTE feature. This will tick off a lot of people here, especially if they went through the trouble of answering any questions you might have had or, even more confusing, if they asked you any questions you might have deleted. On another part of the board, I made some posts that are rather embarrassing but rather than deleting them and blurring the conversations, I've left them intact. Yeah, I'm not proud of my flouncing but I made a mistake and I've owned up to it.

Carmen Fox said:
Turns out I can't delete my account. Never mind.

The only time accounts get deleted are for spam or other inappropriate posts. A flouncing member only gets banned and locked out permanently.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 19, 2014

I'm all for helping other writers, but I don't consider "paying it back". About 99.9999% of those who helped me learn how to write well enough to sell were dead writers. I learned by reading their published novels.

Of course, I had no internet to help me out, so I used the library instead.

I firmly believe in good writing classes, in a college degree in the field, but I can't help but believe the primary help new writers need come from published books and short stories, not the internet, and not some sort of mentor. Not understanding the basics usually, in my experience, comes from not studying what you read closely enough.

Writing basics - paying it forward

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