Regarding F/F Couples in Lit...

Melanii · Dec 8, 2014

I notice a lot of patterns when I browse through books, online or in a local store. Obvious there a lot of literature with romance in it, usually focusing on male x female. There are also quite a bit with male x male couples. For me, it's difficult to find female x female focused stories.

From the tumblr of Sarah Rees Brennan, a YA author.

Boys are taken note of more. The Demon’s Lexicon series, I’ve noticed, was on far more LGBT* lists than the Lynburn Legacy series—which, I’m not saying I deserve to be on any lists, I’m just using myself as an example, and I’m not saying I don’t love Jamie and Seb of TDL because I do—even though the LGBT* characters and their relationship had more pagetime and narrative centrality in TLL. I’m saying, I also saw Rachel Hawkins’s Hex Hall on fewer lists than similar-sellin’ books with gay male supporting characters. I’m saying the dismissal of girls is an endemic problem.

Boys’ stories are considered better and deeper, as we can see by, for instance, how many Printz winners and Printz honours have male or at least dual PoV rather than solely female PoV (hint: the vast majority). This sadly does not go away when the boys are LGBT*—their LGBT* stories are considered more important.

Response by Malinda Lo, another YA author.

It is a risk to write about lesbians — in YA or otherwise.

Is this why I have a hard time finding female x female stories? And more male x male stories?

And truthfully, I would love to write such stories (not romance/erotic genres, just in my stories), but even MY default goes to male x female. I'm bisexual, by the way with preference for girls, though I've never dated one (they're hard to find...). So the fact that I haven't written about female x female couples is odd.

My main novel has two female protagonists, though they're sisters. So the elder sister gets into an aggressive, physical relationship with a guy. Even the younger sister had a relationship with a guy. I was thinking of making one of the other girls in the story like girls (particularly) the younger sister, though I'm not even sure how to portray that correctly. o.o

I want to write about female x female because that's what I like, and unfortunately I can't change the genders of any of my characters, because it's SO weird. And despite being bisexual, I'm not even sure how to show the younger sister being bi without SUDDENLY being bi. XD

Oh! Are there any books that have female x female romances? Anything fantasy/supernatural/paranormal would be super.

I suddenly realize this post might have no "reason". Let's just discuss? o.o

Viridian · Dec 8, 2014

Miss Strawberrii said:
Oh! Are there any books that have female x female romances? Anything fantasy/supernatural/paranormal would be super.

I don't have anything to really add to the discussion. But. If you're looking for recommendations, there's The Dark Wife (Sarah Diemer). Though I feel like that recommendation is worthless, because as great as it is, I bet you've already heard of it.

I have an outline for a romance/fantasy story that's sitting, waiting to be written. I still haven't decided if it's going to be f/f or m/m. I'm leaning towards f/f, but it is discouraging to know that if I do, it's unlikely to sell as well.

Marlys · Dec 8, 2014

Yeah, there are lots. Start with Bold Strokes Books and Bella Books.

Melanii · Dec 8, 2014

ViridianChick said:
I don't have anything to really add to the discussion. But. If you're looking for recommendations, there's The Dark Wife (Sarah Diemer). Though I feel like that recommendation is worthless, because as great as it is, I bet you've already heard of it.

I have an outline for a romance/fantasy story that's sitting, waiting to be written. I still haven't decided if it's going to be f/f or m/m. I'm leaning towards f/f, but it is discouraging to know that if I do, it's unlikely to sell as well.

Never heard of that!

So it IS true f/f doesn't sell that well? I feel like... Like I need to write more f/f and like... show the awesomeness of it. I think. I feel so strongly about it.

@Marlys: Thanks for those links!

Lillith1991 · Dec 8, 2014

Marlys said:
Yeah, there are lots. Start with Bold Strokes Books and Bella Books.

Honestly, there may be lots, but I still often feel like I'm getting the same thing the M/M was getting a decade or so ago. They tend to be a lot more cliché ridden often times with a lot less trope subverting, and I'm speaking as someone who is herself interested in women. It's almost as if people haven't realised they don't have to protray lesbian and bi women in a special way yet.

That's actually why I write character who are basically lesbian (either lesbians or homoromantic female demisexuals) a lot, because I want to write people like me as just people.

Unimportant · Dec 8, 2014

Miss Strawberrii said:
So it IS true f/f doesn't sell that well? I feel like... Like I need to write more f/f and like... show the awesomeness of it. I think. I feel so strongly about it.

It doesn't sell as well as F/M, so it's largely limited to small presses. As noted above, Bella and Bold Strokes Books are probably the two major small presses publishing lesbian fiction. For small presses, they do quite well; I think their titles sell in the range of 1000 -10,000 copies, depending on genre (erotica sells better than F/SF/mystery) and 'name' (not surprisingly the biggies like Radclyffe, who also owns the latter press, sell better than newbies).

There are also some market lists you can check out here and here.

Agents tend not to bother with small press sales, so authors with small presses have to go it alone and negotiate their own contracts etc. As always, do your homework before submitting, talk to current and past authors about what the publisher is like to deal with, scrutinise contracts carefully and get advice before signing, etc.

Viridian · Dec 8, 2014

On another note: it really depends on what you're talking about, here.

A novel about a same-sex couple is not usually mainstream. However, a novel that contains a same-sex couple can be sold as a mainstream book.

So if you're writing a fantasy novel and the main character happens to fall in love with another woman during the book: that's a fantasy novel with a romantic subplot, and can be sold to larger publishers. If you're writing a novel specifically about this woman's love story, and the plot is mostly romance: that's f/f, and is generally sold to smaller publishers.

Lillith1991 said:
Honestly, there may be lots, but I still often feel like I'm getting the same thing the M/M was getting a decade or so ago. They tend to be a lot more cliché ridden often times with a lot less trope subverting, and I'm speaking as someone who is herself interested in women. It's almost as if people haven't realised they don't have to portray lesbian and bi women in a special way yet.

That's sad to hear. When I get tired of the cliches and tropes in m/m, I read f/f. I haven't read enough yet that I've noticed any tropes or patterns.

TessB · Dec 8, 2014

I'm working on my second book in my series for Samhain -- it's F/F/M, and I've been given the go-ahead for that grouping (though of course there's no guarantee that they'll end up liking this particular novel.)

A lot of F/F that I've read seems to default to the less explicit/songs and flowers sorts of love affairs rather than having anyone be sexually hungry -- perhaps as a reaction to the old pulp novels were lesbians were voracious she-devils? XD In any case, I'm watching this thread with great interest!

Oh! One series I remember reading I think must have been written int he seventies. It was a series called Cherry Aimes, iirc, and it was a direct queer parody of Nancy Drew and so forth -- every single person in that world was queer. They were hysterically funny reading!

Melanii · Dec 8, 2014

Very true! Luckily, I don't write much romance, only a certain genre WITH romance.

Though, I still have a difficult time FINDING f/f books to read. The others seem to be easier. o.o

Unimportant · Dec 8, 2014

ViridianChick said:
So if you're writing a fantasy novel and the main character happens to fall in love with another woman during the book: that's a fantasy novel with a romantic subplot, and can be sold to larger publishers.

That's true in theory, but in practice it's a hard sell, because for a publisher it's an additional risk. They know readers will read fantasy with a het romance subplot. They know some, but far fewer, readers will read fantasy with a lesbian romance subplot.

cornflake · Dec 8, 2014

TessB said:
I'm working on my second book in my series for Samhain -- it's F/F/M, and I've been given the go-ahead for that grouping (though of course there's no guarantee that they'll end up liking this particular novel.)

A lot of F/F that I've read seems to default to the less explicit/songs and flowers sorts of love affairs rather than having anyone be sexually hungry -- perhaps as a reaction to the old pulp novels were lesbians were voracious she-devils? XD In any case, I'm watching this thread with great interest!

Oh! One series I remember reading I think must have been written int he seventies. It was a series called Cherry Aimes, iirc, and it was a direct queer parody of Nancy Drew and so forth -- every single person in that world was queer. They were hysterically funny reading!

I'm sorry, but WHAT? Cherry Ames was a series about a young nurse in WWII and after, she became a traveling nurse. She sometimes had a Dr. bf, I vaguely recall, though I could be wrong.

I know this because my grandma had Cherry Ames books and I read them when I was a kid. They were written during WWII, which I think either predates or was contemporary to Nancy Drew. They're not a queer anything. I loved those books.

I'm not saying I couldn't have loved them if they had been some gay parody or whatever, but they weren't. They were, like Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys, which I also read at grandparents' house, the earnest, engaging stories of young people doing good.

Unimportant · Dec 8, 2014

Miss Strawberrii said:
Though, I still have a difficult time FINDING f/f books to read. The others seem to be easier. o.o

Here are some lists of books/authors you can check out:

list

another list

yet another list

oops, one more list

TessB · Dec 8, 2014

cornflake said:
I'm sorry, but WHAT? Cherry Ames was a series about a young nurse in WWII and after, she became a traveling nurse. She sometimes had a Dr. bf, I vaguely recall, though I could be wrong.

I know this because my grandma had Cherry Ames books and I read them when I was a kid. They were written during WWII, which I think either predates or was contemporary to Nancy Drew. They're not a queer anything. I loved those books.

I'm not saying I couldn't have loved them if they had been some gay parody or whatever, but they weren't. They were, like Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys, which I also read at grandparents' house, the earnest, engaging stories of young people doing good.

Hah - my bad memory strikes again! (Though granted it has been about 15 years...) it's Nurse Cherry Aimless. (and her BFF, Nancy Clue). Sorry for the heart attack!

Viridian · Dec 8, 2014

Unimportant said:
That's true in theory, but in practice it's a hard sell, because for a publisher it's an additional risk. They know readers will read fantasy with a het romance subplot. They know some, but far fewer, readers will read fantasy with a lesbian romance subplot.

That's the absolute truth. Books with LGBT protagonists are definitely going to be harder to sell. I see a lot of authors sneaking in queer sexuality through secondary characters, or by putting it off until later books. (City of Bones, several Tamora Pierce books, a few of Holly Black's books... actually, pretty much every successful mainstream author I've read with LGBT characters does this.)

I was shocked when one of my favorite books was picked up by Penguin. Shocked, because the book is about a same-sex couple. It's funny, though: despite the fact that the book contains only one explicit sex scene (two pages of dick-sucking), it's being marketed as erotica. If the book were about a heterosexual couple, it would probably be sold as fantasy.

And it's strange that "shocking success," for me, is defined as "being published by a Big Five publisher." Don't get me wrong -- any author who gets picked up by Penguin is living the dream. It takes skill, it's hard, and it's unlikely. But for other books, I'd consider a "shocking success" to be a few million books sold, or thousands of reviews on Goodreads, or a deal for movie rights. But for books with LGBT protagonists, the dream is "getting a traditional print publisher." That's the glass ceiling. That's the wild dream.

I don't know where I'm going with this. The point is, the rules are ~~different~~ more stringent for people with LGBT protagonists. But the difference between an f/f novel and fantasy romance with a lesbian subplot is that the fantasy romance with a lesbian subplot could make it to print.

Melanii · Dec 8, 2014

And print is where I'd like to go. Well, someday.

*tries not to jump ship on current book because of head hurting to write book featuring f/f couple*

Viridian · Dec 8, 2014

Well, I'm staying firmly in the "small press" arena, because my trope-ridden smut likely wouldn't make it to print even if it were about heterosexual people.

So my own little rant doesn't apply to my situation.

But there are OTHER books that deserve more attention. Good books. Not Viridian books, but good books.

BenPanced · Dec 8, 2014

TessB said:
Oh! One series I remember reading I think must have been written int he seventies. It was a series called Cherry Aimes, iirc, and it was a direct queer parody of Nancy Drew and so forth -- every single person in that world was queer. They were hysterically funny reading!

The Nancy Clue and Cherry Aimless books! They were by Mabel Maney, and she wrote three (one had a variant cover since it featured the Hardly Boys): The Case of the Not-So-Nice Nurse, The Case of the Good-For-Nothing Girlfriend, and A Ghost in the Closet (featuring the Hardly Boys). They came out between 2006-2009, and she also did a couple James Bond parodies (Jane Bond in Kiss The Girls and Make Them Spy and The Girl with The Golden Bouffant).

TessB · Dec 8, 2014

That's the ones! They had to be out long before 2006, though, since I found battered copies in the library at university in 1999.

JohnnyGottaKeyboard · Dec 8, 2014

Yes, I remember finding Ghost in the Closet way back in the last century and being horrified by it. Probably early 90s.

ETA: Goodreads claims 1995.

J.S.F. · Dec 9, 2014

OP, if you want F/F couples...

LOOK NO FURTHER! SHILL TIME!!

Yes, shameless me. But to answer your question--sort of--I do have two YA novels with a F/F romance, the first two novels in the Lindsay/Jo trilogy. (See links, please)

I don't know why there are more M/M novels around. Honestly, I couldn't tell you. As a straight guy, some have questioned by sincerity (and sanity--that, from my wife) for writing lesbian fiction, but my take on it is that it's an idea, and you run with your ideas.

If you want an ARC, just ask and it shall be yours.

Oh, by the way, I will have a F/F adult novel out next year. Just an FYI...

Melanii · Dec 9, 2014

J.S.F. said:
OP, if you want F/F couples...

LOOK NO FURTHER! SHILL TIME!!

Yes, shameless me. But to answer your question--sort of--I do have two YA novels with a F/F romance, the first two novels in the Lindsay/Jo trilogy. (See links, please)

I don't know why there are more M/M novels around. Honestly, I couldn't tell you. As a straight guy, some have questioned by sincerity (and sanity--that, from my wife) for writing lesbian fiction, but my take on it is that it's an idea, and you run with your ideas.

If you want an ARC, just ask and it shall be yours.

Oh, by the way, I will have a F/F adult novel out next year. Just an FYI...

Go you!

What do you mean by an "ARC"? o.o

amergina · Dec 9, 2014

ARC= Advanced Reading Copy.

Melanii · Dec 9, 2014

amergina said:
ARC= Advanced Reading Copy.

I-I knew that.

>>

Unimportant · Dec 9, 2014

J.S.F. said:
I don't know why there are more M/M novels around.

Because a lot -- a LOT -- of straight women read m/m novels. As, of course, do gay/bi men.

F/f is read largely by lesbians/bi women, and by a few straight women. And by a very, very few straight men. So, smaller readership = fewer sales = less profitable = fewer presses interested in f/f compared to m/m.

My (vague) understanding is that a lot of straight women read m/m because "one cock is good, two cocks are better!". They can put themselves into the characters and enjoy the experience of being 'the other'. Etc. Whereas, straight men may find f/m/f the ultimate fantasy, but f/f (where a man and his penis are wholly superfluous and unwanted) excludes them and therefore they are not interested in reading it.

Note, that's my take on it based on just a few random people's comments; I could well be dead wrong!

Melanii · Dec 9, 2014

It's funny you mention that. Isn't it stereotyped that guys LOVE when girls have fun with each other? D:

It's all so weird they *wouldnt* read f/f. XD

Regarding F/F Couples in Lit...

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practical experience, FTW

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