I'm not a perfectionist

gettingby said:

I feel like I'm missing something here.

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You're over-generalizing, and confusing having high standards and being unable to meet those standards with perfectionism.

"Be not afraid of perfection: some are born perfect, some achieve perfection and some have perfection thrust upon them."

Or something like that.

I don't strive to be perfect because what is perfect? Especially when you're discussing the realm of creativity and art. If we write as well as we can for the time of life we're in and the experience we currently have, we have achieved our best. Isn't that all "perfection" really is anyway?

I strive for at least grammatically correct and error-free. The rest is simply my personal best.

I don't know that there's any one quality that "most writers" share.

But for myself, I have pretty low standards. Even then, I still feel the need -- not for perfection -- but to do the best I can. That best just happens to be lower than my writing buddies' expectations of themselves. It's why sometimes I look at what they've written and I think, "Whoa, that's SO GOOD HOLY SHIT" and they're tearing their fur out and going, "THIS IS SHIT BWUUHHH" and then I'm sitting there thinking, "Huh. If I wrote that I'd be pretty happy."

To me it's just a matter of where your personal standards are. I don't think it's something worth worrying about. I'm certainly not trying to make myself a perfectionist. I already beat myself up over my writing enough without striving for perfection.

gettingby said:

But do most writers see themselves as perfectionists? With all these threads about permission to write crap and being unable to write because writers don't think it will be good enough and even having a sort of writers block out of fear of not being able to well execute ideas, is everyone else aiming for an unobtainable level of perfect prose?

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I don't think writing anxiety comes from any universal place.

Sometimes, it's about perfectionism. Sometimes it's not. Thinking that what you write isn't "good enough" is a far cry from thinking "I can't write because it's not perfect."

gettingby said:

I'm not a perfectionist. I don't agonize over which words to use. I never feel like something has to be perfect in order to be good. I do hold myself to high standards. And I only send my work out to places that are also known for high standards. But, like I said, I'm not a perfectionist.

But do most writers see themselves as perfectionists? With all these threads about permission to write crap and being unable to write because writers don't think it will be good enough and even having a sort of writers block out of fear of not being able to well execute ideas, is everyone else aiming for an unobtainable level of perfect prose?

I feel like I'm missing something here. The only way to get better is to read and write a lot. It seems like trying to be perfect is nothing but a distraction for some and an excuse for some others. Why are you guys trying to be perfect? Or maybe the question should be why am I not trying to be perfect?

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I keep doing rewrites until I'm happy with it. If I kept rewriting until every word was perfect, nobody else would ever see my novel because it would never be done.

gettingby said:

I feel like I'm missing something here. The only way to get better is to read and write a lot. It seems like trying to be perfect is nothing but a distraction for some and an excuse for some others.

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I think it depends on attitude. If you came into writing with a purpose to be perfect and write masterpieces only, you can end up in depression as you simply can't always meet that super high criteria. I try to have fun. It's not easy but I remember why I started writing - because I liked it.

lbender said:

If I kept rewriting until every word was perfect, nobody else would ever see my novel because it would never be done.

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This.

And that goes for anything I write from book reviews to these posts. I'm my own worst editor, and sometimes I have to step back and call it done.. even when I'm not sure it is.

I am a perfectionist... but I'm not convinced it is a helpful characteristic for my writing. Or, at least, I try to spear it toward what I REALLY care about (making people feel something from what I've written), rather than applying it to everything from word order to necessity of semi-colons.

gettingby said:

It seems like trying to be perfect is nothing but a distraction for some and an excuse for some others.

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Just a reminder to be careful about 1) generalizing and 2) making assumptions of what is going on in other people's minds. There are a good number of people for whom 'perfectionism' is a crippling liability that takes a lot of work to overcome. Your list above makes it sound like a trivial condition.

gettingby said:

I feel like I'm missing something here. The only way to get better is to read and write a lot. It seems like trying to be perfect is nothing but a distraction for some and an excuse for some others. Why are you guys trying to be perfect? Or maybe the question should be why am I not trying to be perfect?

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"Perfect" is always my goal. I even think I achieved it three or four times in the last thirty-five years.

The only way to get better is to read and write a lot. Well, yes and no. The same basic thing could be said about playing the piano. You have to play every day. But if all you do is sit down and bang away, you'll never be any good.

The same is true of writing. Yes, you have to read and you have to write, but you also have to try to write better and better. You have to learn to see what you're doing wrong, and you have to think about how you can do this and that better and better. Just banging away at the keys isn't going to make you much better.

For a long while now, I've edited, rewritten, and revised each page as I go. I go over teh page time and time again, five times, ten times, whatever it takes to make it as perfect as I can possibly make it. Only then do I move on to the next page.

As for writing crap, I think it's a horrible idea. What should be said is taking the pressure off yourself to be perfect on the fist pass can be a good thing. Writing crap is not.

i also think it's a moot point because I don't think a good, talented writer can write crap. A good, talented writer may well write a first draft that's need polished, that needs tightening, that needs rewritten here and there, but it will not be crap. It will still display good writing, good characterization, etc. It will still be better than teh final draft of most who try writing. It will only be "crap" in comparison with that individual writer's final draft.

One trick with perfectionism is to know what "perfect" is for you. My perfect ain't Shakespeare's perfect, it's simply the best I can possibly do.

The other trick follows the one above. It's knowing when to let go, knowing when you can make changes, but not improvements.

I could leave it like that, but the three times I've come as close to perfection as I possibly can contradict just about everything I've said. In complete opposition to this whole philosophy of striving, of editing/rewriting/revising over and over as I go, are the three perfect damned near pieces I've written in thirty-five years of trying. Perfect is in the eye of the beholder, but I can't come closer to perfection than I did in these three pieces. All three sold first time out to top magazines, all three were published without a single word being changed, and all three have been reprinted many times. Even after many years, I can't find a single word I would change in any of them.

All three, however, were written very quickly. One piece took twenty minutes, and the other two took less than four hours from initial idea to submission. And I sold the first draft of all three. The true first draft. I didn't edit/rewrite/ revise as I wrote, or after I finished.

I finished each, read each, and could find not a word I wanted to change. I had that "Damn!" feeling that's all too rare.

All three pieces just flowed out with no hesitation, no thought. They spilled out, but each word landed in perfect position.

I have no idea what to make of this, or where it fits in the whole perfectionism argument.

Anyway, I see nothing at all wrong with perfectionism, as long as it's under control, as long as you understand you're after perfect for you, not perfect for Shakespeare, and as long as you know when to quit.

Well, I can tell you that in terms of language my approach is very much 'good enough is good enough' - but - I also know that I can turn out serviceable prose. I think carefully before I write, and I keep in mind how the order of words and ideas builds images in a reader's mind. If I have a sentence that I know is 'wonky' I put it in italics. Once the story is done I go back and double check on the language. (*IF* I applied my true perfectionist thinking to that - I would never never finish.)

I think a great deal of writing anxiety come from the gap between taste and skill

When you first start writing, you probably think you're amazing.

Then you read more, learn about writing, and realize you suck, or at least your writing isn't up to snuff.

You have to push through that time until your skill catches up with your taste.

Many (perhaps most) people never get past that. Writing is hard, and because "good" writing is so subjective, there will always be rejection. Pick any of the most successful, acclaimed writers in the world, and you can find someone who will say they suck. What chance does a bare beginner stand?

Sometimes, I think it's a wonder any of us write at all.

I always used to think of myself as an artist of words. Artist culture, more so than writer culture, tends to drive people to perfectionism through fairly vicious criticism and a greater focus on competition. People learn to fear criticism, and once one has a fear of criticism, creating something imperfect can seem way worse than creating nothing at all, or creating and never showing your creations to anyone. Beyond that, there's this cultural concept that a work of art must be as close to perfect as the artist can make it - that's what makes it art rather than 'hackwork' or 'soulless mass-produced product'.

Others have said it, but it's important enough to repeat this.

Writing is like any other skill. Practice makes better, if you strive to be better. But if you try too hard, to be a world class athlete on your very first day of practice you'll be disappointed & maybe quit. We tend to get better slowly, with work, accepting our limits & working to overcome them.

gettingby said:

With all these threads about permission to write crap and being unable to write because writers don't think it will be good enough and even having a sort of writers block out of fear of not being able to well execute ideas, is everyone else aiming for an unobtainable level of perfect prose?

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To be blunt: Those threads are not for you. If you don't need that kind of help and don't know how to give it, there are plenty of other places on AW.

Why are you guys trying to be perfect?

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What?

Nobody who struggles with perfectionism has a why. The type of perfectionism you're talking about -- the type that needs threads full of advice to help combat -- is a difficult and terrible thing. This is like asking why someone has body dysmorphia or why someone is in an abusive relationship or why someone has ADD.

(And just like some people talked about their ADD being a part of them in a recent thread about disabilities, there's a complicated relationship with perfectionism -- often we hate the obstacle to success while at the same time being unwilling to let go of its mythical standard and clinging to the identity of always satisfying its demands. Some people would give up their perfectionism in a heartbeat if they could, whereas others would insist on keeping it. And some would struggle with that decision, if it were offered.)

I feel like I'm missing something here. The only way to get better is to read and write a lot. It seems like trying to be perfect is nothing but a distraction for some and an excuse for some others.

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What you don't seem to be getting is that those of us who are perfectionists don't try to be perfectionists. We are perfectionists, no matter how many times we tell ourselves these things. Of course we know it's blocking us. Of course we know if we could write more rather than obsessing we'd more quickly get better at writing.

It reads as pretty patronizing that you think we don't. And calling it an "excuse" is beyond insulting.

Or maybe the question should be why am I not trying to be perfect?

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Because you're not a perfectionist. And your OP is reading as if you're saying, "Oh, no, is there something wrong with me for rapidly writing excellent material instead of being held back by my obsessive tendencies?!" Which, I hope you realize how offensively that reads for those of us who struggle with what you brush off so easily.

I take you at your word that you didn't mean your OP to be upsetting or insulting. And I sincerely don't mean my response here to be hurtful to you. But I don't think you understand just what it is you're asking, or that it seems like you're asking for a pat on the back because you're not hamstrung by something a lot of us struggle with daily.

gettingby said:

Do you see something wrong with writers not being perfectionists? It seems to me that more people on AW are perfectionists than not. Just wondering if something is wrong with me or if this is something that will make it harder to produce great writing.

Having worked as a journalist under some really tight (sometimes insanely tight) deadlines, I had to write quickly and let it go. I did this for a very long time. Now that I don't have those kinds of deadlines, should I be trying to make things perfect or some form of that?

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I worked as a journalist, too. Like you, I often had things pretty much ripped out of the typewriter. I learned to write very fast, but I also learned to write well at that speed. It was teh greatest wirting teacher I had. Particularly human interest stories, and humor. Both played wonderfully into my fiction writing.

Perfectionism can be good, or it can be horrible. If you control perfectionism, it's good. If you let it control you, it's bad.

I want every sentence I write to be as good as I can possibly write it, and I want it to say exactly what it should say to make teh story and characters better. If it isn't as good as I can write it in every way from style to content, it's going to show.

Sometimes everything just flows out, and teh first effort is as good as I can write. Sometimes I go over a page ten or fifteen times, word by word, sentence by sentence. Whatever it takes.

I want my writing, my stories, and my characters to be teh best I can make them. It really isn't about perfectionism, it's about making them the best that's possible for me. Sooner or later, whether it's in proofs, or in a magazine after it's published, I'm going to have to read my story again. When I do, the last thing I want to find is places where I got lazy, where I didn't do my best. Even if readers don't notice, I will.

But readers do notice, especially after they've read your work a few times. Editors notice, too. Let an editor read one piece of your writing where you did your best, even if it's in a competing magazine, and he will ever after know when you're getting lazy.

Then you have the slush pile. Many of the writers in the slush pile are working hard to make their stories as perfect as it's possible to make them. I think it's a good idea to do the same.

For me, though, it comes down to writing the best way I possibly can. I'm not satisfied with writing almost as well as I can, even if almost is still good enough to sell. If I have a first draft that comes out as well as I can write, then, fine, great, wonderful. If I have to go over every sentence ten, or fifteen, or twenty times, then this, too, is fine, great, wonderful.

Readers deserve the best writing, teh best storytelling, the best characters, the best everything, I can possibly give them. I deserve it, too.

But I'm always in control. I know when I've done my best, and I know when to say enough is enough. I know when to stop and move on.

gettingby said:

But do most writers see themselves as perfectionists? With all these threads about permission to write crap and being unable to write because writers don't think it will be good enough and even having a sort of writers block out of fear of not being able to well execute ideas, is everyone else aiming for an unobtainable level of perfect prose?

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I don't think I am a perfectionist, and I don't think I'm aiming for perfect prose either. I *do* need to tell myself it's okay to write what I think is shit and I do have problems writing because I can't sustain my own attention because it seems stupid and boring and blah blah. These things are not the same. I can't write the way I want to much of the time, and it comes with difficulty, and sometimes I think everything I touch turns to diarrhea, and so on and so forth; I don't think this is perfectionism.

People can have a myriad of ways of functioning, and you don't have to share in all of them, or understand them either. Your way is probably just fine.

I feel like I'm missing something here. The only way to get better is to read and write a lot.

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Yes? And what if you do that but it doesn't seem to you that you're getting any better, and no matter what you do you can't stop thinking it's crap even though it might not be? What point are you making?

It seems like trying to be perfect is nothing but a distraction for some and an excuse for some others.

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Or a massive obstacle that one must learn ways to cope with...

Why are you guys trying to be perfect? Or maybe the question should be why am I not trying to be perfect?

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I'm not sure how to answer these questions because they seem to operate on false assumptions, as sl covered above. People just function in different ways, individuals are individuals, and such; these things are not often a matter of choice or conscious effort.

I sometimes see in the threads that you refer to that you don't understand why so-and-so is having so much trouble--and it's okay to not understand things. I get it. There's tons of stuff I don't understand. But the fact that I don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't so

So, you have no problem with your process. Other people do what works for them and ask for help when they can't find a way that works. That's all this is. Enjoy your process and let it be

Putputt said:

I don't know that there's any one quality that "most writers" share.

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Well, we all write, for one thing...

Brightdreamer said:

Well, we all write, for one thing...

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Pfftt, semantics.

Perfectionism is definitely an obstacle for a lot of people. And I know I'm obsessive about editing. I'm one of those that can spend an entire day editing a WIP and still not accomplish anything substantial.

I don't ever expect my stuff to be perfect (even after editing something a thousand times I still catch mistakes when I go back to it), but I strive to make it as perfect as possible. It's really the only way I know how to work. Maybe some people can just sit down and write something and have it be pretty good on the first try. For me it's a long, slow process of trying out different things and experimenting and shuffling the pieces around in different configurations, and I never really know what's going to work or not work until I try it.

Like others have said, everyone's process is different.

gettingby said:

Do you see something wrong with writers not being perfectionists?

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Not necessarily. However. In writers, painters, and sculptors, it almost always directly correlates to inexperience.

Writers, painters, and sculptors go through this similar process.

They start off thinking they're hot stuff. Others point out they actually suck, and could improve. The writer/painter/sculptor then kicks into perfectionist mode, trying not to make all the mistakes they've been accused of committing. And at the same time, they are trying to remember what the mistakes even are. This is all well and good for a few years ... without nagging perfectionism, one CANNOT grow. But after a time, the writer/painter/sculptor is indeed capable and their perfectionism has become a disability. The next stage in their learning is for them to break free, and trust themselves.

I am a professional sculptor, and for the past year, I've been challenging myself to work the clay a bit faster so I can better succeed as an artist (more $$$ per hour). I'm working towards this place where perfectionism, which was so crucial to my earlier learning, doesn't hold me to slave wages.

So the question is, are you 'unperfectionistic' because you're green? Or is it because you're extremely experienced? If it's the former, put your writing under lots of scrutiny from those more experienced than you. If it's the later, you probably wouldn't have started this thread.

I'm not a perfectionist, but I know one really, really well - and I have to say that although his perfectionism precludes him from enjoying it, he really achieves a HUGE amount.

I'm just sayin'

I wouldn't be one for quids. But it's not all bad.

mccardey said:

I'm not a perfectionist, but I know one really, really well - and I have to say that although his perfectionism precludes him from enjoying it, he really achieves a HUGE amount.

I'm just sayin'

I wouldn't be one for quids. But it's not all bad.

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Troo. The writing buds I have who are perfectionists blow me away with their first drafts. My first drafts are usually incoherent piles of ramblings loosely strung together by dog hair and glue, but I have read first drafts by others that are more polished than my final draft. There are also plenty of times when I have read someone's work and a single word jumps out at me because it's SO perfect for that scene, and yet it's a word I wouldn't have thought to put there myself because I don't put in the same amount of effort into my work that they do.

Sometimes it makes me feel bad, like why am I so fucking lazy and dumb that I can't come up with something as good as they do? But like slhuang said, it's not like people choose to be perfectionists. They just are. I can empathize with them to a certain extent, because, yanno, I get that feeling of ARGH, my work is UTTER SHIT BURN IT PUT IT OUT OF ITS MISERY plenty of times. Come to think of it, I get it every time I write, so yeah, I do have to give myself permission to write shit. It's just that I'm okay with it being "less shitty" while others need it to be absolutely perfect. Different strokes and all that.