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Beware of teens selling magazines door to door!

rekirts

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Susan Gable said:
The local middle school here does a magazine drive fund raiser. I like to get my magazine subscriptions from those kids. :) It beats them selling overpriced giftwrap and cookies and stuff.

I know that Jenna is refering to a different sort of kids selling magazine subscriptions, but be aware some of your local schools may be doing this as well.

Susan G.
Yes, both highschools here have magazine fundraisers in the fall and I have, on occasion, subscribed to a couple of magazines through them without any problem. Usually it's through kids I know or whose parents I know. This is a small place, though, so most people are familiar with these fundraisers.
 

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As someone who was in sales for over thirty years, I can truly say there's no dumber spiel for the door-to-door kids to give than "I'm trying to win a trip to France (or Cancun, or the Outer Hebrides, or whatever)." Because most people's first reaction to that is, "Why should I care if I help send your skinny butt to Acapulco (or Cozumel, or the Cape of Good Hope, or whatever)? I can't even afford to send my own family to Disney World!" The kids should at least go for the heartstrings: "I only need to sell one more magazine subscription, and they'll release my sister from the hospital (or the nursing home, or the white slavery ring, or whatever)."

As a marketing ploy, it's hopelessly bad. Must be working, though. Here in the Midwest, the scams have sprung up like kudzu.
 

underthecity

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I had no idea that such an empire existed.

I followed one of the links Jenna provided and read horror story after horror story about these kids who travel the country selling magazine subscriptions in what appears to be a cult-like slavery ring.

Isn't this kind of thing illegal? How can a company hire kids to do this and keep doing it for decades?

And I have to admit, I fell for it, too. In 1989, when I was 18 or 19, I was shopping alone at a popular mall. A cute girl came up to me and started flattering me, asking me about my favorite color and whatnot, and invited me to have a seat and talk with her. Of course, hormone-driven as I was, naturally I agreed. After the "get to know you" bs, she told me that she and a group others were selling magazine subscriptions so they could take a vacation. I looked over the magazine list, and of course I wasn't interested in any of them, but how was I going to say no to this friendly and cute girl? (Girls never talked to me voluntarily.)

Finally I agreed on two magazines (there was a reason I had to choose two, but I can't remember) and the price was something like $50 or $60! I had to go withdraw money from the ATM, and she went with me, standing nearby while I did it. Financially, this was really pushing it for me, as my part time job wasn't making me independently wealthy.

She promised she would send me a postcard from her trip. I paid her the cash, and she wrote NO PEST STRIP! on my receipt so I could show it to any other salesperson who came to me--that I was not to be "pestered" since I bought the subscription. Yes, I was a labeled "mark," both figuratively and literally.

Later, only one magazine came, and the customer service number was no help on getting the other (my guess is that she probably processed one and pocketed the money for the other). It was later that I questioned why the mall would allow them to do that. And I realized it was probably a scam, but I didn't know how it worked.

A couple years later, I was working in a bookstore in another mall. A friend was shopping that day and came into the store all excited with this story: "Hey, I was just walking along and this cute girl came up, and told me about a trip she could win if she sold these magazine subscriptions! Oh, and I gave her my address because she promised me to send me a postcard! We're gonna keep in touch!"

I sighed and told him what had happened to me. Later on, he said he never got a postcard from her. Just like I didn't either.

She was cute, though. Very outgoing, very persuasive.

Weird stuff. It'd make a great documentary.

allen
 

NancyMehl

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I'm a sucker for every kid in the neighborhood who is selling stuff for his school. I used to take my son around to sell things, so I have a soft spot.However, I only buy stuff from kids I know attend a local school.

There's a group that sends kids into neighborhoods to sell old candy or candles. Unfortunately, the group pockets most of the money. The sales pitch is usually geared to evoke some kind of guilt if you should say "no," and to be honest, most of the kids have a bad attitude.

At one time the pitch was, "If you buy something from me it will keep me off the streets." My mother, bless her heart, used to look them right in the eye and say, "Listen, buddy, it isn't my job to keep you off the streets. You need to take care of that yourself." Then she'd slam the door. After a while, they left her alone.

I'm afraid I'm not that direct, but I refuse to buy anything from that group. I figure if they quit making money, the kids will find something more worthwhile to do. I feel badly for the kids, but giving them money isn't going to help anyone.

I did run into the magazine scam once. Someone knocked on the door, and when I opened it, one of the scuzziest young women I've ever seen stood there. She was dressed like a go go dancer from the seventies, with the multi-colored hat and white boots. And her midriff was bare. Believe me, she didn't have the figure for it. Her gut hung out over her shorts. She told me that she was in a contest to win something like the "Miss American Teen" contest.

I got my husband to come and look at her. We said "no" and shut the door. I can't quite remember how long it took us to quit laughing.

Nancy
 

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I thought I was pretty hip to all scams. I know not to use PA, that "herbal enhancements" are bull, and that the nice Nigerian man won't give me a cent. But I guess there's always going to be a scam out there I haven't heard of.

I never answer the door unless it's someone I know, mostly because I'm shy and don't want to make awkward small talk as I turn the person down. But even if I did, I should hope the words "trying to earn/win a trip" and overpriced subscriptions for crappy magazines would tip me off. It's all so fishy, like the people selling bumper stickers at concerts for "charity" (no name given, of course).

I had no idea this was part of something so horrible, I just thought the sellers probably pocket the money. Thank goodness a cop lives across the street. Hopefully he's wise to this.

While we're talking about scams, what about other door to door selling buisnesses? The ones that come to mind is the one selling cards for prizes that you'd see on the back of kid's magazines (do they still have those?) and the student books, sold by students. The latter is a legit product, and a nice one, I'm just wondering if the sellers are being scammed and if they're actually students in other staes.
 

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Growing up as a kid in the South in the mid-fifties, the hot door-to-door item then was Cloverine salve (picture a less-greasy, whitish Vaseline). Truth be told, the goop wasn't half bad. And thankfully so, as my grandmother seemed to buy the stuff in case lots, and wasn't shy about using it on me (as a boy I frequently got poison ivy/oak/sumac in such virulent doses I looked like a Hiroshima survivor). Haven't seen Cloverine around for years, though.
 

CaitlinK18

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I encountered the cousin of the magazine scam, the soap scam, this summer. I was pulling into my driveway after a long day of work and a guy with a satchel was on the street, staring at my house. Okay, weird, but whatever...I figured he was lost or something, since the bus stop is right up the street. I had the window of my car down because it was hot, and the guy made an about-face and came bounding down my driveway to corner me while I was still in the car.

He went through his spiel, which included "teaching kids to sell soap, not dope". Ha ha. Then he offered to wash my windshield for me, and I said sure because the car was filthy and I figured that even though I wasn't going to buy anything, hey, at least the car would be cleaner.

He washed, then told me the price: $20 for a bottle about the size of an economy Windex container. Uh huh. Like I'd pay that much, even if I wasn't a broke-*** writer with student loans. I gave him my standard excuse of "I don't have any cash on me."

"We take checks."

"No checks either. I...don't believe in them. Yeah. Identity theft. Scaaaary."

(Please note: normally I don't engage door-to-door God squads or salespeople, but he had me trapped in the driveway, out in the open.)

"But this soap is...[spiel]"

"Look, I'm sorry but I truly don't have any cash for this. Just a debit card, and unless you can process that..." (Mentally adding "And since you're a semi-overbearing man on foot, carrying nothing but a satchel of soap, I'm guessing not.")

He got snippy with me when I said no again.

"Well, then go to the ATM. I'll wait right here."

[Blink] "I've had a very long day. I'm not doing that just for your soap. I'm sorry."

"Fine, your loss!" [Flounce]

Now I look back and shudder at what he said about the kids. If he was that arrogant and predatory with a potential customer, what was he doing to his crew? I had no idea it was a scam of this magnitude. Fortunately I buy all my magazines online.
 

KimJo

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The schools in the town where I live (elementary, middle, and high) do fundraisers on occasion; so do the activities in which my daughters are involved. In all cases, the students/participants are told NOT to sell door-to-door, but only to go to the homes of people they know well and/or relatives.
 

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Or it could be even darker. The door-to-door guy and the MLM guy sign up for each other's scams, kind of like the whole matter/antimatter thingie, and the universe just blinks out. The mind reels, I tell ya...
 

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My wife is one of those people who buys anything a door-to-door salesman is selling, if I'm not home. Unfortunately, that included one of these situations. We now get Nick Jr magazine through the year 2009.
 

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I had a friend who actually applied to get one of these jobs. He was so excited when he got it, too. And then they sent him to the other side of the country to go door to door. They got him a room somewhere, which they paid for and he had to pay them back, and he spent all day, every day, trying to sell door to door.

He didn't sell enough, and he ended up owing them for his room and plane ticket. Part-way through the summer, I was asking him to let me send him money so that he could come home. (They didn't abuse him or anything, it just seemed a bit cult-like).

My mom said that they sent him away so that he'd sell more, and that the kids who are selling here are probably from somewhere else, too.
 

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From what I've read on these pages, these "kids" you speak of are 18 years old or older.

Is this some kind of joke, like the Halloween candy scare from the 80s?

People are kidnapping LEGAL ADULTS, rooming them in hotels, and sending them out to sell magazine subscriptions? :p

Door-to-door salesman scams are nothing new, but I have feeling this is some kind of hoax.

It is kind of hard to kidnap people when you let them run around town you know. They certaintly aren't trying very hard.
 
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Daughter of Faulkner

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An elderly, handicapped woman was raped in my town

Run don't walk away from them. An elderly, handicapped woman was raped after they left cursing me in my front yard. They were haulded off to jail, etc. But the damage was done. It was just awful to watch it on TV knowing they had JUST left my yard only 30 minutes to attacking her.
They will curse you to the bone once you cross them. And their driver (here ,usually in a white van) will load them up and you never see them again. Unless, of course, you read of what they left behind....pain and nothingness.

Thanks for posting JG!
 

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jfreedan said:
From what I've read on these pages, these "kids" you speak of are 18 years old or older.

Is this some kind of joke, like the Halloween candy scare from the 80s?
I've never seen poisoned Halloween candy, but I have seen kids (both adults and teens) trying to sell magazine subscriptions. And so have many of the people posting here. Many of the posters had similar experiences, with kids saying they were one sale away from earning a free trip. These similarities are a little too coincidental to be unrelated, I'd think.

There are also plenty of real news items about magazine subscription crews, and have been for years. I remember hearing about a fatal van accident that occurred because the so-called adult supervising a crew told one of the kids to drive for a while. The kid had no license. There was a horrid accident with multiple deaths. As far as I remember, the kid got the longest jail term, and the jerks who ran this company go away with a lot. As usual. And there are similar stories out there (scores of fatal van accidents), as well as consumer warnings from real organizations that have a stake in getting the facts right.

jfreedan said:
People are kidnapping LEGAL ADULTS, rooming them in hotels, and sending them out to sell magazine subscriptions? :p

Door-to-door salesman scams are nothing new, but I have feeling this is some kind of hoax.

It is kind of hard to kidnap people when you let them run around town you know. They certaintly aren't trying very hard.
I don't think anyone is saying they are literally kidnaped, and then forced to sell magazine subscriptions. They probably join because they think it's a real job or because they are desperate. No doubt a lot of them are runaways with nowhere to go. Also, if what happened to author Katherine Dunn is any indication, the kids are usually made to work far away from home, making it harder to get away.

Also, you can be a legal adult and still get scr*wed. (Just read the rest of the Bewares Board to learn the many ways that's possible.) I know that when I was 18, if someone tossed me into California without money or a ticket home, I would have been in trouble. It's hard to travel thousands of miles back home under those circumstances. Especially if you're under fear of getting arrested if you go to the cops. (The kids who work in these crews are often subject to arrest. After all, they are usually selling without a proper license, and they may be breaking other laws as well.)

It sounds like many are run like cults -- although from what I have read, I think the supervisers sound more like abusive pimps. If adults can get lured into a cult that persuades them to give all their money to a religious leader, then why can't young adults be lured into a magazine subscription sales crew?
 

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jfreedan said:
Door-to-door salesman scams are nothing new, but I have feeling this is some kind of hoax.

It is kind of hard to kidnap people when you let them run around town you know. They certaintly aren't trying very hard.

Combining abuse with kindness after isolating the victim from outside support is an effective way of controlling people, especially young and inexperienced ones.

And to anybody who says, "I'd just run away," or "That wouldn't work on me", well, all I can say is I'm glad you've never had to face the experience.
 

jfreedan

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AnneMarble said:
I've never seen poisoned Halloween candy, but I have seen kids (both adults and teens) trying to sell magazine subscriptions. And so have many of the people posting here. Many of the posters had similar experiences, with kids saying they were one sale away from earning a free trip. These similarities are a little too coincidental to be unrelated, I'd think.

People selling magazines does not = raving bands of kidnappers abducting adults and forcing them to sell magazine subscriptions.

All it means is that there is door-to-door salesman. That's nothing new.

And some of the 'reports' on these websites are unverifiable statements submitted by anonymous posters to the website. The accuracy is questionable. The news reports are mostly about single offenses commited by lone individuals, not raving gangs who abduct adults off the street and force them to sell magazines.

If you look real hard, you can find news reports about everything from gas pumpers to lawyers murdering, assaulting and raping people. Does that mean there is some kind of epidemic of lawyers and doctors turning to violent crime?

No, it means this world has violent people in it, and a lot of them have a job. Obviously the lower paying jobs are going to have more violent people in them, because there is a reason they "cant find any other job" and it has to do with the kind of person they are. When even McDonalds won't hire you, there is a reason for that and I honestly don't have a hell of a lot of sympathy for these people because they put themselves exactly where they are.
.

Sane people do not work for free.
Sane people would walk away from non-paying jobs and go down to a Day Labor office.
And the only reason a sane person would not do that is if they thought there was some big payoff they were going to get as part of a scam.

And nobody can go weeks without food in the US unless they are purposely starving themselves, because if you hang by a street corner with a sad face for an hour or two, someone is gonna stop their car and give you 100$. I watch it happen all the time, literally, not to mention the available food programs we have that you can get access to even if you're not homeless.

There are also plenty of real news items about magazine subscription crews, and have been for years. I remember hearing about a fatal van accident that occurred because the so-called adult supervising a crew told one of the kids to drive for a while. The kid had no license. There was a horrid accident with multiple deaths. As far as I remember, the kid got the longest jail term, and the jerks who ran this company go away with a lot. As usual. And there are similar stories out there (scores of fatal van accidents), as well as consumer warnings from real organizations that have a stake in getting the facts right.

I don't doubt there are scam artists.
I don't doubt people get scammed.

What I doubt is the purported 'innocence' of the legal adults who claim they were kidnapped and forced into magazine subscription bondage. Most people would walk away from these so-called kidnappers, even if they claimed the person owed them money? "Who cares," says the rational person, "they have to find me first."

I don't think anyone is saying they are literally kidnaped, and then forced to sell magazine subscriptions. They probably join because they think it's a real job or because they are desperate. No doubt a lot of them are runaways with nowhere to go. Also, if what happened to author Katherine Dunn is any indication, the kids are usually made to work far away from home, making it harder to get away.

Tied up inside a van or held in a hotel without your contact lenses but allowed to make phone calls to home...yeah, some have claimed actual kidnapping, and it just sets off my BS meter.

If someone is going to commit the federal offense of kidnapping someone to make money off them, it's going to be for prostitution, not selling Time magazine subscriptions.

A few instances of scam artist raping someone I can accept as being a reality, because that is typical criminal behavior (most of them probably arent even real magazine salesman, and just used the line to get the door open the same way a robber might pretend to buy goods at a 7-11).

That this is a common practice for door-to-door magazine subscribers, I'm not so willing to believe, because if it was you could be certain the FBI would be all over it.

Also, you can be a legal adult and still get scr*wed. (Just read the rest of the Bewares Board to learn the many ways that's possible.) I know that when I was 18, if someone tossed me into California without money or a ticket home, I would have been in trouble. It's hard to travel thousands of miles back home under those circumstances. Especially if you're under fear of getting arrested if you go to the cops. (The kids who work in these crews are often subject to arrest. After all, they are usually selling without a proper license, and they may be breaking other laws as well.)

You can be a legal adult and still be screwed, but you can't be kidnapped if you're running around town all day with plenty of opportunities to escape.

And it really doesn't matter what State you're in-- you're not in a whole different country, you are in the USA. There are both public and private shelters for people to get food and board at if they need a place to stay. I've stayed in some before. It's really not as scary as you seem to believe. Living on your own and fending for yourself is apart of being an adult.

And why would the police arrest you if you claim you've been kidnapped? Whistleblowing is encouraged by law enforcement-- they aren't going to arrest the guy who unknowingly commited a crime if the person blows the whistle on the whole operation.

Last I knew, over-charging people for Martha Stewart Living is not a jailable offense and kidnapping is.

It sounds like many are run like cults -- although from what I have read, I think the supervisers sound more like abusive pimps. If adults can get lured into a cult that persuades them to give all their money to a religious leader, then why can't young adults be lured into a magazine subscription sales crew?

Some of them may be cults, but I think most of this is just some people pretending they haven't done anything wrong when they get caught as apart of a scam, and looking for a way out.

Playing the "omg the devil made me do it, I'm a victim too!" card is the oldest excuse in the book.

So, I don't think these cases are really kidnaps or even cult slavery. It's just a bunch of very stupid people getting duped by slightly more intelligent, but still pretty dang stupid people.

As with most unskilled laborers, a minority of them are violent criminal-type people; most of them are probably just ignorant college students who think they can make some quick bucks without doing a lot of work.

Scam artists prey upon two types of people:

A) Compassionate people (ie "Please donate to the United Hezbollah Children's Fund!")
B ) Greedy people (ie "Hey dude, I can hook you up with some cheap cable!")

From what I've heard so far (Free Vacations, Plane Tickets, Living in a hotel, Travel, Quick Money), they are preying on greedy people who don't have a whole lot of common sense.

When I was about 17, I had someone send me a random email from my (now non-existent) personal website saying they had seen my picture and wanted to hire me to audition for a leading role in Power Rangers (I'm not making this up. This is true). I knew it was total BS, but I replied anyway just to see how far down the rabbit hole goes, and once I learned the guy was basically trying to solicit me for prostitution, I sent his info to the FBI.

It's not hard to avoid obvious scams if you're not greedy and can look at a situation with a clear head.

soloset said:
And to anybody who says, "I'd just run away," or "That wouldn't work on me", well, all I can say is I'm glad you've never had to face the experience.

No, it really wouldn't work on me because I spent five years of my life as an Infantryman in the US Army, and one year of that was deployed in OIF.

You want to talk about a stressful enviroment where your superiors can get away with being abusive or one where you might be jailed if you try to leave, try being lower-enlisted in the military.

Joe Blow Scam Artist can't compare to an ego-inflated Sgt. who takes out his crappy marriage on everyone beneath him.

In the Army, you don't have a hell of a lot you can do if someone is mis-using their authority over you.
In the civilian world, you can quit and walk away, because you're not legally bound to take their crap.
You can even get a lawyer and suit them too.

I can say with absolute certainty that cult tactics will not work on me, and that my mind is my own. That I've managed to avoid falling for every scam thrown my way, and have never had any kind of debt is proof of that.

Also, being that I was in the military, I have a good idea what kind of people cult tactics do work on, and while some of them may be able to flash college degrees around, they really aren't quite that sharp to begin with. The number one factor they all have in common is being extremely gullible, and I've watched them do a lot of really retarded things (ex. "Go kick that cardboard box and see if there's a bomb in it." or my favorite, "Drive real fast over that razor-sharp C-wire in a John Dear Gator and you can clear it easy.").

Maybe I'm a little insensitive now, but when people do obviously stupid things, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for them.
 
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jfreedan said:
When even McDonalds won't hire you, there is a reason for that and I honestly don't have a hell of a lot of sympathy for these people because they put themselves exactly where they are.

This is a very narrow-minded view. There are many reasons why people can't find jobs (yes, even at McDonalds) other than "they are violent."

Hmm, want me to name a few?

Maybe they a) don't speak English, b) have problems with housing/rent that keep them moving around a lot, or c) have some sort of mental illness (a lot of the homeless people you see in big cities do in fact have minor-to-severe illnesses that keep them from holding down jobs.) I'm sure there are many more reasons.

Look, I'm not trying to start an argument here (I'm really not!) but I have to admit that your post made me angry.
 

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jfreedan said:
I can say with absolute certainty that cult tactics will not work on me, and that my mind is my own. That I've managed to avoid falling for every scam thrown my way, and have never had any kind of debt is proof of that.
Actually, as a military man, you've had cult tactics used successfully on you. It's called Basic Training. Its purpose is to take normal selfish individuals and mold them into men and women who will sacrifice their lives for their comrads. This is not a bad thing. It is a good and honorable thing. But it takes cult-like brainwashing to achieve.

Charismatic leaders can get people to do outrageous things. Remember Waco. Remember Jonestown. Remember the Holocaust. These things happen and just dismissing them as myths doesn't make them any less real.
 

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Roger J Carlson said:
Actually, as a military man, you've had cult tactics used successfully on you. It's called Basic Training. Its purpose is to take normal selfish individuals and mold them into men and women who will sacrifice their lives for their comrads. This is not a bad thing. It is a good and honorable thing. But it takes cult-like brainwashing to achieve.

Charismatic leaders can get people to do outrageous things. Remember Waco. Remember Jonestown. Remember the Holocaust. These things happen and just dismissing them as myths doesn't make them any less real.

Actually, it did not work on me, because if the brainwashing had, I would have happily re-enlisted into the Army. I never lost my ability to question the situations I was in and I never readily believed a leader was competant just because they had rank. I learned when to say "yes" and I learned when (and more importantly, how to) talk a leader out of sending me to perform unneccessarily dangerous tasks which could be more efficiently done in other ways.

I learned to not crumble under pressure, rather than give in to it.

I'm aware of the history of cult behavior (although the Holocaust is somewhat an exception, because that was a little more complex than "Hitler told me to do it!", for Anti-Semitism was built up in Germany for decades).

But if you look closely at cults (everything from Jonestown to Scientology) , they only work on people who are promised something by the cult in exchange for the sacrifice of identity. Be it utopia or glory, it's really all the same. They think there is a reward of some sort and that is why they give up independence.

There are many reasons why people can't find jobs (yes, even at McDonalds) other than "they are violent."

Hmm, want me to name a few?

Maybe they a) don't speak English, b) have problems with housing/rent that keep them moving around a lot, or c) have some sort of mental illness (a lot of the homeless people you see in big cities do in fact have minor-to-severe illnesses that keep them from holding down jobs.) I'm sure there are many more reasons.

I was responding to the "they can't find any other job than selling magazines door-to-door". If you're using that arguement, there is a huge problem there.

Besides, if you don't speak English, I can't imagine you'd expect to be a very good salesman in the US. Let's face facts here, if I go to Japan without knowing Japanese, I cannot expect to be able to get hired for a 99.9% of jobs because I don't speak the native language. That's not something to pity someone for, and it IS entirely their own fault for going to a country they should know darn well they can't get a decent job in.

Crazy people also don't tend to make very good salespersons either, and we do have special programs for taking care of them. Whether they choose to use them or not is their own deal, and irregardless of how nuts they claim they are, if they turn down these programs, it's their own fault.

And again, there is always day labor where you get paid in cash at the end of the day. A lot of homeless people do it.

Sometimes I wonder if it isn't that people cannot find a job, but that they cannot find a job they are willing to do.
 

Roger J Carlson

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So your whole argument boils down to: It wouldn't work on me so it must not exist and if it does, those people (kids) must be weak or stupid or evil themselves and they deserve whatever they get.
 

soloset

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jfreedan said:
No, it really wouldn't work on me because I spent five years of my life as an Infantryman in the US Army, and one year of that was deployed in OIF.

So, essentially, tactics like this won't work on you because you're not a naive, hungry teenager, so they wouldn't work on a naive, hungry teenager?

jfreedan said:
Also, being that I was in the military, I have a good idea what kind of people cult tactics do work on, and while some of them may be able to flash college degrees around, they really aren't quite that sharp to begin with. The number one factor they all have in common is being extremely gullible, and I've watched them do a lot of really retarded things (ex. "Go kick that cardboard box and see if there's a bomb in it." or my favorite, "Drive real fast over that razor-sharp C-wire in a John Dear Gator and you can clear it easy.").

I take quite a bit of offense at the your description of the "kind of people" cult tactics work on. The only things a manipulative person needs to control someone who depends on them are isolation (either physical or simply from the victim's usual support network) and the ability to dish out abuse and love in the right proportions.

jfreedan said:
Maybe I'm a little insensitive now, but when people do obviously stupid things, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for them.

And it's easy to feel like this on the other side of the fence. I've felt like that too; why, oh, WHY didn't you exercise due diligence before sending off that check? And then I remember that "obviously stupid" is a lot more obvious when you've got experience, and not so obvious when you're starting out. And that ANYBODY can end up in a situation like this if they're made to feel worthless enough or if they desire approval enough.

ETA: And what Roger said. Did I mention I hate being the slowest poster in the world?
 

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Hey, I'm not a politically correct person.
I'm just an honest person, and I call it like I see it.

I take quite a bit of offense at the your description of the "kind of people" cult tactics work on. The only things a manipulative person needs to control someone who depends on them are isolation (either physical or simply from the victim's usual support network) and the ability to dish out abuse and love in the right proportions.

You can take offense, because I truly believe someone who runs around believing nothing horrible can happen to them is liable to walk into these scams, and is pretty much the only kind of person who does. I have never met someone who truly carefully thought about a scam and did not see it for it was. I've known plenty of people who "had a bad feeling, but I thought I'd take a chance and see how it goes".

Junk mailers send out millions of mail fully knowing the minority of gullible suckers are going to fall for the scams, allowing them to recoup the money they spent. You can't sit here and convince me that while the majority of people don't even bother opening this stuff up, there is a minority of very sharp people who fall for this mess. Sharp people don't give a time of day to junk.

People are not born into this world at the age of 18, never knowing anything about the world. Humans don't dwell inside a vacuum until they turn a certain age. That is a stupid, stupid myth. You've been alive for 18 years, you've been exposed to all kinds of information stipulating everything from "Smoking causes cancer" to "Don't drink and drive", yet people do it anyway because they believe nothing bad is going to happen to them, or they have this idea they can stop the dangerous behavior right before something bad happens to them.

They ignore the warning signs, and they reap what they sow.
That may not be politically correct, but it is reality.
I live in reality, not Care Bear Land.

And isolation from "support group" is PART of the whole dang problem. The fact these people NEED a support group to have a purpose in life is part of the reason they are such an easy mark for con artists. Support groups are nice and useful, but too many people have built their identities based on a group enviroment.

If you CHOOSE to give your independence away to other people, I do not feel sorry for you if they abuse it. That doesn't mean I approve of what criminals do, I disapprove of them too, but I find it difficult to feel sorry for people that cause their own misfortune.

Person who was minding their own business, obeying the law is killed by a drunk driver. I feel sorry for the innocent bystander-- I have no sympathy for the drunk driver.

Accepting a plane ticket and a hotel room from a complete stranger you met on the street is a huge no-no. You might as well be driving drunk, it is just as careless a thing to do.
 
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soloset

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jfreedan said:
Hey, I'm not a politically correct person.
I'm just an honest person, and I call it like it is.

You know, "politically correct" is not the opposite of "honest", and "honest" is not the opposite of "compassionate".

One doesn't have to live in "Care Bear Land" to understand that not everyone is mentally or emotionally equipped -- not even after eighteen years of life -- to combat experienced predators. And that it doesn't make you a bad or stupid or weak person if you've walked into something like this.

And, by the way, since you seem to have conflated the two, "being scammed" in the sense of paying money is a quite a bit different from being sucked into a cult or a gang. Some of the emotional principles are similar, but they're not the same thing.

jfreedan said:
If you CHOOSE to give your independence away to other people, I do not feel sorry for you if they abuse it. That doesn't mean I approve of what criminals do, I disapprove of them too, but I find it difficult to feel sorry for people that cause their own misfortune.

Okay. As I said earlier, I'm glad you've never been in the position to face this sort of thing. And I'm glad there are people who do feel sorry for those who make mistakes (sometimes even committing the horrible sin of being too trusting) and who are abused because of it.
 

Atomic Bear

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A friend of mine told me a story about her young next-door neighbor who came from a poor family in Berkeley CA. She was part of some door-to-door scheme that had them visiting the wealthy neighborhoods. There were promised a trip to Great America theme park. They never got the trip and the organizers ran off with the money. These were young kids, 10-12. I can only imagine the impact the experience had on there young lives.

I have a hard time believing such terrible people can even live their lives with out feeling shame for doing such awful things. Maybe they need to teach ethics in school?