10 Hours of One Woman's Being Harrassed in NYC, Filmed

Whoa, that was a special kind of stupid on display.

And narcissism. Even in that context, he couldn't get past his stupid self and mumble an apology?

Ketzel said:

I've experienced the whole gamut of street harassment in my life, but I will never forget the asshole who accosted me on the day of my father's funeral. The service at the funeral home (in Battery Park City, not far from Wall Street) had just ended. My family was already in the limousine and I, dressed in black, was standing alone on the sidewalk next to the car, waiting for my father's coffin to be loaded into the hearse for the ride to the cemetery.

Walking down the street came a middle-aged white guy, strutting large and in charge, who was certainly dressed as if he worked on Wall Street. He stopped short and said, "Hey, pretty green eyes, you know you'd be prettier if you smiled - c'mon, smile for daddy."

My normal reaction to "Smile!" commands is to pretend I didn't hear them, but in that context and with those words, I lost it. I pointed to the coffin being slid into the hearse and said, "There's my daddy, you stupid son-of-a-bitch. Go fuck yourself."

And he responded, "Easy there, girly! No need to be so nasty to someone trying to pay you a compliment!"

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What an ass! "You'd be prettier if you smiled" is not a compliment, anyway!

heza said:

I really don't know how to respond to this. I was suggesting that there's value in women as a group asking men, regardless of their culture, to be more sensitive to a learned fear response. But it's starting to feel like you're increasingly suggesting I, as a white girl, want to eradicate all non-white cultures. And I don't really think that's a fair assumption from what I've said on the matter.

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No, I didn't mean your views as specifically as me quoting them would imply, and I'm sorry for that. The language gets close to something that irks me is all. But I'm also easily irked by a lot, so keep that in mind, too

robeiae said:

To be fair, no one else suggested a need for "educating cultures." You introduced that idea.

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I quoted the relevant post in my earlier post to her. It's not a big deal, so I'm not going to do line-by-line quotes or anything. But the post was about educating folks from different cultures, yes. I added the non-white (explicitly), myself. I only threw that in because that's usually where it starts getting very tricky, I think.

Ugh. Just...ugh!

http://news.yahoo.com/woman-seen-harassed-nyc-streets-video-gets-rape-180905117.html

Buzzfeed posted a video a few weeks ago about what it would be like if women catcalled men:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8uOErVShiE

I like the woman who says "I bet you could put together my Ikea furniture!"

raburrell said:

It's an interesting idea though (or at least got me thinking) - we had a thread a few weeks back about violent and/or misogynistic culture in Islamic countries, and there was a suggestion put for by more than one poster that 'liberals' didn't do enough to try to change it (I'm paraphrasing). Granted, this isn't (usually) a mass violence situation, but I do think there are some parallels.

If indeed this is more strongly a black/hispanic cultural phenomenon, is there some of that same perceived responsibility to work for cultural change?

Not necessarily on a liberal/conservative axis, I'm asking more generally. If so, can it be done both from within and without?

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It's an interesting question.

If a culture is truly oppressive to an element within it -- women, an ethnic group, whatever -- and as a result, members of that oppressed group cannot change things themselves if they wish to do so, then I do see responsibility towards helping work toward change. And the more extreme that oppression is, the more of a responsibility the rest of us have to do something about it.

Women in some Islamic countries are powerless to help themselves. They cannot hold down jobs, don't have real choice about who they marry, can't drive, get educated, etc. And if they lift their heads to protest, they might be, oh, stoned to death. Or shot. Or have their noses cut off. They often have no recourse if they are raped or abused. They might even be punished for it. That's horrific.

Certainly I'd favor trying to change those cultural attitudes. One cannot say "those women are ok with it" -- they have no choice.

I'm also in favor of "educating" those who think it's OK to touch, shout obscenities, menace, stalk, make rape threats against, or demand a response from a woman they don't know. They need to respect personal space, and get it straight that strangers don't owe them a response. Though if we're dealing with an asshole or a nut, I doubt any amount of "education" is going to do any good. The guys who make rape threats? -- yeah, I don't think we're going to get far educating them. Unfortunately.

"Cultural" or not, that stuff's just not OK. At best it's rude; at worst some of it's illegal (here in the U.S., at least).

But when we get down to a simple "Bless you, mami" called as you pass by -- no groping, no obscene proposal, no stalking, no threat -- well, it may be useful for these guys to know that a lot of women, especially in the U.S. and Canada, don't like it. But I don't honestly see a big need to sail into Washington Heights and reeducate everyone to stop saying "Bless you mami" (or responding "in your dreams, papi").

Ketzel said:

I've experienced the whole gamut of street harassment in my life, but I will never forget the asshole who accosted me on the day of my father's funeral. The service at the funeral home (in Battery Park City, not far from Wall Street) had just ended. My family was already in the limousine and I, dressed in black, was standing alone on the sidewalk next to the car, waiting for my father's coffin to be loaded into the hearse for the ride to the cemetery.

Walking down the street came a middle-aged white guy, strutting large and in charge, who was certainly dressed as if he worked on Wall Street. He stopped short and said, "Hey, pretty green eyes, you know you'd be prettier if you smiled - c'mon, smile for daddy."

My normal reaction to "Smile!" commands is to pretend I didn't hear them, but in that context and with those words, I lost it. I pointed to the coffin being slid into the hearse and said, "There's my daddy, you stupid son-of-a-bitch. Go fuck yourself."

And he responded, "Easy there, girly! No need to be so nasty to someone trying to pay you a compliment!"

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That's ridiculous. What an idiot.

The smile police (as I call them) are a pet peeve of mine, and they often do get some kind of remark out of me. It's usually men, but I've had a couple of older women tell me to smile, too.

Since they're generally complete idiots who mean well in their idiotic way, this is one of the occasions where I sometimes seize the chance to do a little "education." When I have time, I stop and very seriously ask them how they would feel if they knew I'd just lost my parent, husband, or child, or that I'd just been fired, or that my house had burned down. I don't do it angrily -- I do it very, very, very seriously, as though assuming good intentions on their part.

They're usually reduced to stammering an apology.

backslashbaby said:

I quoted the relevant post in my earlier post to her. It's not a big deal, so I'm not going to do line-by-line quotes or anything. But the post was about educating folks from different cultures, yes. I added the non-white (explicitly), myself. I only threw that in because that's usually where it starts getting very tricky, I think.

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I'll do the line-by-line, then, because even though you said it's no big deal, I still feel like you're misrepresenting what I said.

heza said:

I simply don't think it's pointless to try to educate everyone on this issue.

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This is where I said the word "educate," which is the word you seem to take issue with. But I didn't say educate other cultures. I said everyone. I think it's an issue everyone should be aware of.

If men in Washington Heights don't know any better, then I don't feel it's a waste of time or an assault on their culture to tell them that some women don't appreciate it. I don't think it's a lost cause to assume they have the capacity to empathize with women from another culture.

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Here, I'm also not saying to "educate" other cultures. I'm saying if there are men in any area who don't know call-outs upset some women (because that's what CassandraW said, which is what I was responding to), I said it wouldn't be a waste of time to tell them it does. I said I think men of any culture have the capacity to empathize with women on a variety of issues we face.

I didn't say we need to go into non-white neighborhoods and teach other cultures how they need to act. I'm saying there are a number of behaviors that might or might not be cultural customs, but that shouldn't prevent women of all types from asking for better treatment from all men.

heza said:

Here, I'm also not saying to "educate" other cultures. I'm saying if there are men in any area who don't know call-outs upset some women (because that's what CassandraW said, which is what I was responding to), I said it wouldn't be a waste of time to tell them it does. I said I think men of any culture have the capacity to empathize with women on a variety of issues we face.

I didn't say we need to go into non-white neighborhoods and teach other cultures how they need to act. I'm saying there are a number of behaviors that might or might not be cultural customs, but that shouldn't prevent women of all types from asking for better treatment from all men.

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I don't disagree with this, heza.

My point in the bringing up the cultural thing was mainly to point out that as annoying as catcalling could be, it wasn't all necessarily intended to demean and intimidate, though on some women it might have that effect.

I do not think it's at all a bad idea for men to understand that it's often perceived that way.

ETA:

And I'll go further -- some catcalling clearly IS intended to demean and humiliate, and with that stuff, I have zero tolerance, and when I think it's safe to do so, I call guys out on it. (I don't call out people who look insane or dangerous, but assholes I'm fine calling out.)

heza said:

I'll do the line-by-line, then, because even though you said it's no big deal, I still feel like you're misrepresenting what I said.




This is where I said the word "educate," which is the word you seem to take issue with. But I didn't say educate other cultures. I said everyone. I think it's an issue everyone should be aware of.

Here, I'm also not saying to "educate" other cultures. I'm saying if there are men in any area who don't know call-outs upset some women (because that's what CassandraW said, which is what I was responding to), I said it wouldn't be a waste of time to tell them it does. I said I think men of any culture have the capacity to empathize with women on a variety of issues we face.

I didn't say we need to go into non-white neighborhoods and teach other cultures how they need to act. I'm saying there are a number of behaviors that might or might not be cultural customs, but that shouldn't prevent women of all types from asking for better treatment from all men.

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I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, and I brought up what I did when I did to discuss it further. You did, and I did, and it's all good from this end We both added thoughts that were probably useful to add, I think.

CassandraW said:

It's an interesting question.

If a culture is truly oppressive to an element within it -- women, an ethnic group, whatever -- and as a result, members of that oppressed group cannot change things themselves if they wish to do so, then I do see responsibility towards helping work toward change. And the more extreme that oppression is, the more of a responsibility the rest of us have to do something about it.

Women in some Islamic countries are powerless to help themselves. They cannot hold down jobs, don't have real choice about who they marry, can't drive, get educated, etc. And if they lift their heads to protest, they might be, oh, stoned to death. Or shot. Or have their noses cut off. They often have no recourse if they are raped or abused. They might even be punished for it. That's horrific.

Certainly I'd favor trying to change those cultural attitudes. One cannot say "those women are ok with it" -- they have no choice.

I'm also in favor of "educating" those who think it's OK to touch, shout obscenities, menace, stalk, make rape threats against, or demand a response from a woman they don't know. They need to respect personal space, and get it straight that strangers don't owe them a response. Though if we're dealing with an asshole or a nut, I doubt any amount of "education" is going to do any good. The guys who make rape threats? -- yeah, I don't think we're going to get far educating them. Unfortunately.

"Cultural" or not, that stuff's just not OK. At best it's rude; at worst some of it's illegal (here in the U.S., at least).

But when we get down to a simple "Bless you, mami" called as you pass by -- no groping, no obscene proposal, no stalking, no threat -- well, it may be useful for these guys to know that a lot of women, especially in the U.S. and Canada, don't like it. But I don't honestly see a big need to sail into Washington Heights and reeducate everyone to stop saying "Bless you mami" (or responding "in your dreams, papi").

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This is pretty much exactly what I think, btw So I didn't have to say it, because you put it so well.

And I do think the questions raburrel brought up are interesting, kind of like where my mind went on that tangent, yes. I was jumping ahead of the actual conversation too much without explaining well, and I apologize again for that, but this line of thought is the kind of thing I had in mind. Thanks for that discussion

I finally gave in and watched the video. While I understand that could get annoying as hell, there is another aspect or two that I couldn't ignore.

A lot of those men were perched, or parked in one spot. This is apparently how they pass the day. Don't they have anything better to do? (Honestly. I really don't know.)

Is it a modern version of counting coup? As in, 'hey, I got fifteen women to respond today, how'd you do man?'

It was impossible not to notice the ethnicity of most of the men that commented. Could it be something that is more welcomed in their peer group, and they really don't get how damned irritating it could be to someone from outside that group? Then again, most of them only saw the woman for a fleeting moment and offered up their commentary. It was almost like they were watching a television show, making remarks to no one in particular. Is this some kind of entertainment for them?

Finally, they've got no clue that she'd already heard nine different versions of what they had to say already. (Although I doubt that learning this fact would change anything, as she hasn't heard 'their' particular version yet.)

I'm surprised that we weren't treated to a construction zone. Isn't that the stereotypical scene for this kind of behavior? Or am I lost in the 70's?

If you were lost in the 70's, you'd be watching BJ and the Bear.

I got this one.

Synonym said:

I finally gave in and watched the video. While I understand that could get annoying as hell, there is another aspect or two that I couldn't ignore.

A lot of those men were perched, or parked in one spot. This is apparently how they pass the day. Don't they have anything better to do? (Honestly. I really don't know.) No, they probably don't.

Is it a modern version of counting coup? As in, 'hey, I got fifteen women to respond today, how'd you do man?' Nah, I think it's just what they do.

It was impossible not to notice the ethnicity of most of the men that commented. Could it be something that is more welcomed in their peer group, and they really don't get how damned irritating it could be to someone from outside that group? That's what I think, as I've irritated everyone in this thread by saying. Then again, most of them only saw the woman for a fleeting moment and offered up their commentary. It was almost like they were watching a television show, making remarks to no one in particular. Is this some kind of entertainment for them? Yes. See answer to first question.

Finally, they've got no clue that she'd already heard nine different versions of what they had to say already. (Although I doubt that learning this fact would change anything, as she hasn't heard 'their' particular version yet.)

I'm surprised that we weren't treated to a construction zone. Isn't that the stereotypical scene for this kind of behavior? Or am I lost in the 70's? There were probably too many sirens and such at the construction sites, so they didn't bother to include those sections in the video.

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robeiae said:

If you were lost in the 70's, you'd be watching BJ and the Bear.

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I didn't watch that crap then...CHiPs however, I will admit to.

CassandraW said:

I got this one.

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Hah. Well, I'd hate to see you doing all the irritating by yourself.

I'm pretty good at it, if past experience counts?

Synonym said:

Hah. Well, I'd hate to see you doing all the irritating by yourself.

I'm pretty good at it, if past experience counts?

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We shall be a team, then. I look forward to working with you.

robjvargas said:

CNN has a story on a PSA video edited by the anti-harrassment group "Hollaback!". Actually, here's the video on YouTube minus CNN's increasingly annoying ads.

I found myself getting a bit angry at the video. And I don't like that, because I agree with it far more than not.

The video finishes with text announcing (paraphrased): 100+ instances of verbal street harrassment took place within 10 hours... not including whistles winks, etc.

Here's what made me angry. I counted at least five instances *in the video* of men wishing her a nice day, or morning, or evening. That's harrassment? I don't see it, and I feel insulted by that..

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Rob, you post so many threads on here about egregious assaults, attacks, abuse of women - can you honestly not see why there's a connection between women being afraid of strange men calling out to them? You say so often that you're only asking or posting in order to learn - this is a really good example of what happens when men persist in objectifying women. Women begin to doubt the intentions of men who approach them.

It really is this simple.

This is what happens.

It's this.

backslashbaby said:

This is pretty much exactly what I think, btw So I didn't have to say it, because you put it so well.

And I do think the questions raburrel brought up are interesting, kind of like where my mind went on that tangent, yes. I was jumping ahead of the actual conversation too much without explaining well, and I apologize again for that, but this line of thought is the kind of thing I had in mind. Thanks for that discussion

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this doesn't have to do much with micro-aggressions, or the like, but it might be of interest here.

re - education / awareness

http://wudisciples.blogspot.com/2014/10/wu-tang-is-against-domestic-violance.html

When I was younger I noticed that sometimes when I was having a bad day, or was just deep in thought, sometimes random men on the street or in stores would tell me to smile, sometimes tossing in that I was too pretty to frown or I'd be "even" prettier if I smiled or some such thing.

I wasn't always scared or intimidated when this happened, and I usually obliged with a quick glance and a perfunctory twist of my lips upwards. But it bothered me because it felt like an invasion of my personal landscape or an intrusion or interruption of my internal state. Here I am, thinking deep and profound thoughts, or maybe I have a headache, or I'm just in the store trying to decide what I need to buy, and a stranger (and these strangers were always male) calls attention to my affect, expressed dissatisfaction, then tried to sweeten it up with a sort of backhanded compliment.

And it always reminded me that as a woman I have an "obligation" to always be pleasant, attractive and emotionally available to men I happen to run across. No matter how I'm feeling, what I'm thinking about, or what mood I'm in.

I'm pretty sure that some of these men thought they were being "nice" and giving me a compliment, along with a gentle reminder about my demeanor or whatever. But it felt a lot like when I was a kid and "nice" grownups sometimes felt obliged to tell us to smile, or stand up straight, or straighten our clothes, or brush our hair, or would comment on how dirty our faces were. It's the prerogative of someone who thinks they occupy a higher social ladder than another person.

Of course, adults do occupy a higher rung on the social ladder than children, and certain adults (not random strangers, I'd argue) are obligated to guide and to socialize children. But women are sometimes treated like they're juveniles.

I don't know how often adult males tell other adult males to smile when they encounter one another on the street. I don't think women tell random male strangers or other women to smile terribly often either.

So even when those random comments aren't precursors to escalated harassment, or are overtly meant to frighten women, I'd argue they're coming from a place of social superiority and from a subconscious expectation that many men have that women are there to please them.

robjvargas said:

Here's what made me angry. I counted at least five instances *in the video* of men wishing her a nice day, or morning, or evening. That's harrassment? I don't see it, and I feel insulted by that.

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Though it's not harassment in itself, the context is important. She was singled out for most of those comments. It's not like the guys are saying good morning to every single person they pass--that would be impossible. They were singling her out because she was a woman, and maybe because she looked attractive to them, and that can be intrusive.

There are times when it can make sense to acknowledge someone who walks past you on the street. But in a context like that, where there are literally dozens or hundreds of people around and most people expect to go about their business, it can be really obvious when someone is singling you out for special attention. And it's not about being polite or genuinely friendly on their part.

CassandraW said:

The smile police (as I call them) are a pet peeve of mine, and they often do get some kind of remark out of me.

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It's a peeve of mine as well because I'm one of those "resting bitch face" people. There is really no difference between Smile! and I don't like the look on your face. Change it! Yet people who make this cringeworthy demand delude themselves that they're spreading joy. I mostly get it from older men--baby boomer generation dudes with hair growing out of their nostrils.

It's a great example of "intentions" being beside the point. The smile police believe they have great intentions. Few things spoil my mood faster than someone declaring my expression insufficiently happy.

*is now self conscious about his nostrils*

I've actually been meaning to buy one of those nose-hair clippers...

It's funny, though. The "let me see that smile" stuff is constantly used for kids, from parents to teachers to relatives to clerks at stores. Harmless, I think.

But it's a very different thing--obviously--when it's coming from strangers and being directed towards unaccompanied women (or women with young children).