St Louis County - Police Officer Fatally Shoots 18-Year-Old (Michael Brown)

ShaunHorton · Oct 30, 2014

raburrell said:
Johnson's statement is that Wilson nearly hit them, tried to open his door and it bounced off Brown. He also stated that Wilson's gun was already drawn at that point.

Honestly, part of why I lean towards that account being at least relatively truthful is it's the only one in which all the participants have the usual number of arms and legs and I can actually visualize it happening. The others, I simply can't.

In addition, if Wilson was fully expecting to have the room to open the door and get out, he may have already been in the process of getting out when the door bounced back. If that was the case, I can easily see him catching the door in the face on the way back. If he was agitated, and racially profiling Brown, logically, his first thought after the impact would be that he was being assaulted.

T Robinson · Oct 30, 2014

Karen they really are two totally different situations.

T Robinson · Oct 30, 2014

ShaunHorton said:
In addition, if Wilson was fully expecting to have the room to open the door and get out, he may have already been in the process of getting out when the door bounced back. If that was the case, I can easily see him catching the door in the face on the way back. If he was agitated, and racially profiling Brown, logically, his first thought after the impact would be that he was being assaulted.

In that scenario, he was indeed being assaulted.

rugcat · Oct 30, 2014

raburrell said:
Understood. Though I don't think he was attempting to steal anything until the clerk tried to prevent him from leaving. What prompted that, I have no idea.

I don't know. It seems pretty clear to me that he took something and the store guy was trying to stop him from leaving.

But it troubles me that the store clerk, trying to prevent a theft is being portrayed as an equal participant in a disagreement -- as in "the store clerk got physical with him first." If you steal someone's property, and they try to stop you, you don't get to say hey, he grabbed me first.

And take a look at how Brown approaches the store clerk who then backs away rapidly. If that isn't using your size and demeanor to intimidate, I don't know what it is.

You'll never see a better example of "don't mess with me, bro." I'm not exactly a shrinking violet, but I would have stepped aside and said hey, dude, take the stuff then.

ShaunHorton · Oct 30, 2014

T Robinson said:
In that scenario, he was indeed being assaulted.

So, if you drive up to someone, stop, open your door, it bounces off of them, comes back and hits you, it's assault?

Granted, you can call the police and report an assault if someone just bumps into you in a hallway, or pokes you.

Karen Junker · Oct 30, 2014

Yeah, T -- I know they're two different situations -- but if you think about it, the treatment of a white suspect (capture, after killing a cop) vs. the treatment of a black suspect (death after jaywalking) illustrates an outcome that is becoming more and more common -- white people don't get treated as harshly in general.

raburrell · Oct 30, 2014

rugcat said:
I don't know. It seems pretty clear to me that he took something and the store guy was trying to stop him from leaving.

But it troubles me that the store clerk, trying to prevent a theft is being portrayed as an equal participant in a disagreement -- as in "the store clerk got physical with him first." If you steal someone's property, and they try to stop you, you don't get to say hey, he grabbed me first.

First, it can't be proven that's what he was doing. Certainly, it could be.
Second, for every time I've brought this up, I've never defended the way Brown goes after the clerk.

Karen Junker · Oct 30, 2014

Around here, you haven't stolen something until you've walked out the door with it.

I don't know the law in MO.

Looks like it's different -- http://www.leadfootspeedingticket.com/2012/11/what-is-the-penalty-for-shoplifting-in-missouri/

backslashbaby · Oct 30, 2014

Vince524 said:
Even if you go with this, doesn't it still mean that Wilson would have are to grab Brown and pulling into the car since the blood was found inside the car? And now, he's got to do it one handed? While from the inside of the car, behind the steering wheel.

Can you picture someone talking to you through your open driver's window and punching them in the nose? Let's start there

Say they have a bloody face now and dripped or slung blood down your inside car door. Still with me?

I really haven't heard any of the witnesses say 'pull him in'. Wilson is said to have grabbed Brown's shirt, and there was a tussle that looked to all the witnesses who have made public statements like Brown was trying to get loose. Maybe an elbow or forearm made it into the car once or twice, eh? It's a tussle of some sort.

Also, when the first shot came, it could easily have left blood in places in Wilson's car, gun, and on Wilson himself even if no part of Brown was actually in the car. Gunshots cause high velocity spatter, which can go some distance.

AMCrenshaw · Oct 30, 2014

I'd read, "grabbed by the neck." From an SUV this seems plausible.

Which side of the body does the officer keep his gun? If Michael Brown's blood were farther into the SUV --

If Brown was trying to push away from the car, a close-range wound to the hand could cause blood on the door frame (if his hand were planted in the window, as a means of leverage) and the officer's uniform, if the officer were holding onto Brown, as Johnson states. None of this indicates that Michael Brown necessarily went after the gun.

AMCrenshaw · Oct 30, 2014

rugcat said:
I don't think the question of whether Brown approached the vehicle or Wilson pulled up his car next to Brown or possibly if Wilson called out to Brown and told him to come over to the vehicle is relevant in that sense.

I disagree. It would help determine who was the aggressor.

What is relevant is that in order for a confrontation to have occurred, Brown would've had to reach into the vehicle

Wrong. That's your idealism talking.

The only other possibility as has been pointed out by many is that Ofc. Wilson reached out of his window and tried to pull the very large Brown into the vehicle. And that, logically speaking, is nonsensical.

Why does he have to be trying to pull him into the vehicle? That is nonsensical, indeed!

Especially when a human man could damage the wind pipe of another human man without pulling at all.

ShaunHorton · Oct 30, 2014

AMCrenshaw said:
Why does he have to be trying to pull him into the vehicle? That is nonsensical, indeed!

Especially when a human man could damage the wind pipe of another human man without pulling at all.

But, see, that would indicate a level of aggression beyond simple racism. I mean, how much hatred or raging would Wilson have to be to think he could just reach through the open window of his vehicle with the goal of choking someone out, for jaywalking no less?

Diana Hignutt · Oct 30, 2014

T Robinson said:
Incorrect. I was talking to another member about this type of situation today. Once the police are involved, the "victim" may have no input in what happens next.

Granted that a conviction may be difficult to obtain, once the police are involved, other things may happen that the "victim" may not have anticipated.

Like the officer going all Judge Dredd on them?

AMCrenshaw · Oct 30, 2014

ShaunHorton said:
But, see, that would indicate a level of aggression beyond simple racism. I mean, how much hatred or raging would Wilson have to be to think he could just reach through the open window of his vehicle with the goal of choking someone out, for jaywalking no less?

Racial disparity

from the article:

"You've got three (four) black officers and 50 white officers with a town that is 67 percent African-American," said Mitchell

*my addition

ShaunHorton · Oct 30, 2014

AMCrenshaw said:
Racial disparity

from the article:

*my addition

Um. What?

What does the racial disparity have to do with the suggestion that Wilson may have been racist, hateful, or otherwise aggressive enough to try and strangle Brown through his car window for jaywalking?

Vince524 · Oct 31, 2014

Karen Junker said:
Right, Vince, I get that -- but I keep wondering why Wilson might have had his gun out and have gotten close enough to the two men, if he thought the jaywalking situation warranted him having his gun out --

I was really trying to point out the irony of someone who killed a cop being captured alive, while someone who was jaywalking was killed by police on the spot.

Well, we don't know that Wilson had his gun out until the struggle started. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

Vince524 · Oct 31, 2014

Karen Junker said:
Yeah, T -- I know they're two different situations -- but if you think about it, the treatment of a white suspect (capture, after killing a cop) vs. the treatment of a black suspect (death after jaywalking) illustrates an outcome that is becoming more and more common -- white people don't get treated as harshly in general.

No, it really, really doesn't.

If the Brown/Wilson case is shooting because of jaywalking, that's murder. But you would think that if Wilson was the type to pull out a gun because of he'd have had complaints against him. And since we know the idea of Brown assaulting Wilson is in play, it's hardly fair to assume that it was shot while jaywalking.

In addition, the other guy was arrested by a unit of marshals going in prepared for him and probably taking him by surprise.

One situation has nothing to do with the other and comparing the 2 really doesn't help.

robeiae · Oct 31, 2014

Karen Junker said:
Yeah, T -- I know they're two different situations -- but if you think about it, the treatment of a white suspect (capture, after killing a cop) vs. the treatment of a black suspect (death after jaywalking) illustrates an outcome that is becoming more and more common -- white people don't get treated as harshly in general.

More and more common?

One could probably make a case for racial bias in treatment by the police that stretches back to before the twentieth century began. We hear about more instances of such bias these days largely because of the internet, imo. It remains a problem, no doubt, but the added attention means it's harder now for cops to get away with. Plus, there are more cops of color--and female cops--than ever before.

I think the idea of it becoming "more and more common" is something that would need an awful lot of evidence. And I doubt such evidence exists.

Google "murder suspect arrested." You'll get 18,000,000 hits or so. If you start clicking on them, you'll see no shortage of white and black suspects getting arrested, but not getting killed. Police arrest people everyday without shooting them. White people and black people. Really.

Vince524 · Oct 31, 2014

ShaunHorton said:
In addition, if Wilson was fully expecting to have the room to open the door and get out, he may have already been in the process of getting out when the door bounced back. If that was the case, I can easily see him catching the door in the face on the way back. If he was agitated, and racially profiling Brown, logically, his first thought after the impact would be that he was being assaulted.

Yeah, but if it just hit Brown and bounced back I don't know how much damage would be done to Wilson. If it were slammed back by Brown, we're back to assualt. If there's damage to Wilson's face on both sides, then the door couldn't have done that. Of course, this is all dependent on if there was any injury recorded from Wilson's face, which I don't think any of us know.

zerosystem · Oct 31, 2014

Karen Junker said:
Yeah, T -- I know they're two different situations -- but if you think about it, the treatment of a white suspect (capture, after killing a cop) vs. the treatment of a black suspect (death after jaywalking) illustrates an outcome that is becoming more and more common -- white people don't get treated as harshly in general.

So what you're saying is that despite the fact that Frein killed a police officer and would not hesitate to kill more, the cops who went in to apprehend him decided not to kill him solely because he is white? Really?

It seems to me that the cops found out where he was and got the drop on him before he could react. It's a good thing too because he had a sniper rifle and there is no telling how bad the situation would have become if he saw them coming. To bring a racial aspect into that case diminishes the efforts of the cops, in my opinion.

JennTX · Oct 31, 2014

robeiae, it's not the number black men who have committed murder being shot or killed. It's the number of unarmed black men who have been shot or killed by police in the last few months. We just don't hear about this happening to white people under similar circumstances. Not saying it doesn't happen, only that it doesn't seem to happen nearly as often as it does with black suspects.

Not to mention that fact that in many large cities, police shootings of black suspects far outnumber the shooting of white suspects. That might make sense if black people made up a majority of the population, but they are a minority.

I agree that this is nothing new and is probably less common. Now, we have dashcams, surveillance videos, and camera phones to catch this sort of behavior, so it seems more prevalent. The general public is just more aware of something that many in the black community have known for a long time.

raburrell · Oct 31, 2014

While it may not be possible to directly compare the cases, I do think it speaks to the sense many have that 'black lives don't matter'. So I get what Karen (and others) are saying.

JennTX · Oct 31, 2014

So what you're saying is that despite the fact that Frein killed a police officer and would not hesitate to kill more, the cops who went in to apprehend him decided not to kill him solely because he is white? Really?

I read Karen's comment differently. It's not that Frein received more consideration because he was white. Just that he may have received less consideration had he been black. The police did exactly what they were supposed to do in this situation.

robeiae · Oct 31, 2014

JennTX said:
robeiae, it's not the number black men who have committed murder being shot or killed. It's the number of unarmed black men who have been shot or killed by police in the last few months. We just don't hear about this happening to white people under similar circumstances. Not saying it doesn't happen, only that it doesn't seem to happen nearly as often as it does with black suspects.

Not to mention that fact that in many large cities, police shootings of black suspects far outnumber the shooting of white suspects. That might make sense if black people made up a majority of the population, but they are a minority.

I agree that this is nothing new and is probably less common. Now, we have dashcams, surveillance videos, and camera phones to catch this sort of behavior, so it seems more prevalent. The general public is just more aware of something that many in the black community have known for a long time.

raburrell said:
While it may not be possible to directly compare the cases, I do think it speaks to the sense many have that 'black lives don't matter'. So I get what Karen (and others) are saying.

My point is, you can't just say it's "more and more common."

It's not "common" at all, imo. And it's certainly not SOP.

And comparing this situation to that of Eric Frein doesn't make any sense, regardless. It's easy enough to find an example of a black man who killed a cop getting taken alive. And easy enough to find an example of a white man getting killed by a cop.

If one wants to argue about likelihoods here, that's a different matter. I'd take it almost as a given that a black man is at greater risk of being shot than a white man, all things being equal (which of course they never are).

AMCrenshaw · Oct 31, 2014

ShaunHorton said:
Um. What?

What does the racial disparity have to do with the suggestion that Wilson may have been racist, hateful, or otherwise aggressive enough to try and strangle Brown through his car window for jaywalking?

Trust between officer and citizen.

Have you heard of the psychological phenomenon that we trust those that look like us?

eta: Nothing here indicates Wilson must have been racist. Short-tempered maybe. An over-reaction maybe. etc. A perceived threat, though, might have its foundations in racist inclinations.

St Louis County - Police Officer Fatally Shoots 18-Year-Old (Michael Brown)

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