I've experienced the whole gamut of street harassment in my life, but I will never forget the asshole who accosted me on the day of my father's funeral. The service at the funeral home (in Battery Park City, not far from Wall Street) had just ended. My family was already in the limousine and I, dressed in black, was standing alone on the sidewalk next to the car, waiting for my father's coffin to be loaded into the hearse for the ride to the cemetery.
Walking down the street came a middle-aged white guy, strutting large and in charge, who was certainly dressed as if he worked on Wall Street. He stopped short and said, "Hey, pretty green eyes, you know you'd be prettier if you smiled - c'mon, smile for daddy."
My normal reaction to "Smile!" commands is to pretend I didn't hear them, but in that context and with those words, I lost it. I pointed to the coffin being slid into the hearse and said, "There's my daddy, you stupid son-of-a-bitch. Go fuck yourself."
And he responded, "Easy there, girly! No need to be so nasty to someone trying to pay you a compliment!"
I really don't know how to respond to this. I was suggesting that there's value in women as a group asking men, regardless of their culture, to be more sensitive to a learned fear response. But it's starting to feel like you're increasingly suggesting I, as a white girl, want to eradicate all non-white cultures. And I don't really think that's a fair assumption from what I've said on the matter.
To be fair, no one else suggested a need for "educating cultures." You introduced that idea.
It's an interesting idea though (or at least got me thinking) - we had a thread a few weeks back about violent and/or misogynistic culture in Islamic countries, and there was a suggestion put for by more than one poster that 'liberals' didn't do enough to try to change it (I'm paraphrasing). Granted, this isn't (usually) a mass violence situation, but I do think there are some parallels.
If indeed this is more strongly a black/hispanic cultural phenomenon, is there some of that same perceived responsibility to work for cultural change?
Not necessarily on a liberal/conservative axis, I'm asking more generally. If so, can it be done both from within and without?
I've experienced the whole gamut of street harassment in my life, but I will never forget the asshole who accosted me on the day of my father's funeral. The service at the funeral home (in Battery Park City, not far from Wall Street) had just ended. My family was already in the limousine and I, dressed in black, was standing alone on the sidewalk next to the car, waiting for my father's coffin to be loaded into the hearse for the ride to the cemetery.
Walking down the street came a middle-aged white guy, strutting large and in charge, who was certainly dressed as if he worked on Wall Street. He stopped short and said, "Hey, pretty green eyes, you know you'd be prettier if you smiled - c'mon, smile for daddy."
My normal reaction to "Smile!" commands is to pretend I didn't hear them, but in that context and with those words, I lost it. I pointed to the coffin being slid into the hearse and said, "There's my daddy, you stupid son-of-a-bitch. Go fuck yourself."
And he responded, "Easy there, girly! No need to be so nasty to someone trying to pay you a compliment!"
I quoted the relevant post in my earlier post to her. It's not a big deal, so I'm not going to do line-by-line quotes or anything. But the post was about educating folks from different cultures, yes. I added the non-white (explicitly), myself. I only threw that in because that's usually where it starts getting very tricky, I think.
heza said:I simply don't think it's pointless to try to educate everyone on this issue.
Here, I'm also not saying to "educate" other cultures. I'm saying if there are men in any area who don't know call-outs upset some women (because that's what CassandraW said, which is what I was responding to), I said it wouldn't be a waste of time to tell them it does. I said I think men of any culture have the capacity to empathize with women on a variety of issues we face.If men in Washington Heights don't know any better, then I don't feel it's a waste of time or an assault on their culture to tell them that some women don't appreciate it. I don't think it's a lost cause to assume they have the capacity to empathize with women from another culture.
Here, I'm also not saying to "educate" other cultures. I'm saying if there are men in any area who don't know call-outs upset some women (because that's what CassandraW said, which is what I was responding to), I said it wouldn't be a waste of time to tell them it does. I said I think men of any culture have the capacity to empathize with women on a variety of issues we face.
I didn't say we need to go into non-white neighborhoods and teach other cultures how they need to act. I'm saying there are a number of behaviors that might or might not be cultural customs, but that shouldn't prevent women of all types from asking for better treatment from all men.
I'll do the line-by-line, then, because even though you said it's no big deal, I still feel like you're misrepresenting what I said.
This is where I said the word "educate," which is the word you seem to take issue with. But I didn't say educate other cultures. I said everyone. I think it's an issue everyone should be aware of.
Here, I'm also not saying to "educate" other cultures. I'm saying if there are men in any area who don't know call-outs upset some women (because that's what CassandraW said, which is what I was responding to), I said it wouldn't be a waste of time to tell them it does. I said I think men of any culture have the capacity to empathize with women on a variety of issues we face.
I didn't say we need to go into non-white neighborhoods and teach other cultures how they need to act. I'm saying there are a number of behaviors that might or might not be cultural customs, but that shouldn't prevent women of all types from asking for better treatment from all men.
It's an interesting question.
If a culture is truly oppressive to an element within it -- women, an ethnic group, whatever -- and as a result, members of that oppressed group cannot change things themselves if they wish to do so, then I do see responsibility towards helping work toward change. And the more extreme that oppression is, the more of a responsibility the rest of us have to do something about it.
Women in some Islamic countries are powerless to help themselves. They cannot hold down jobs, don't have real choice about who they marry, can't drive, get educated, etc. And if they lift their heads to protest, they might be, oh, stoned to death. Or shot. Or have their noses cut off. They often have no recourse if they are raped or abused. They might even be punished for it. That's horrific.
Certainly I'd favor trying to change those cultural attitudes. One cannot say "those women are ok with it" -- they have no choice.
I'm also in favor of "educating" those who think it's OK to touch, shout obscenities, menace, stalk, make rape threats against, or demand a response from a woman they don't know. They need to respect personal space, and get it straight that strangers don't owe them a response. Though if we're dealing with an asshole or a nut, I doubt any amount of "education" is going to do any good. The guys who make rape threats? -- yeah, I don't think we're going to get far educating them. Unfortunately.
"Cultural" or not, that stuff's just not OK. At best it's rude; at worst some of it's illegal (here in the U.S., at least).
But when we get down to a simple "Bless you, mami" called as you pass by -- no groping, no obscene proposal, no stalking, no threat -- well, it may be useful for these guys to know that a lot of women, especially in the U.S. and Canada, don't like it. But I don't honestly see a big need to sail into Washington Heights and reeducate everyone to stop saying "Bless you mami" (or responding "in your dreams, papi").
I finally gave in and watched the video. While I understand that could get annoying as hell, there is another aspect or two that I couldn't ignore.
A lot of those men were perched, or parked in one spot. This is apparently how they pass the day. Don't they have anything better to do? (Honestly. I really don't know.) No, they probably don't.
Is it a modern version of counting coup? As in, 'hey, I got fifteen women to respond today, how'd you do man?' Nah, I think it's just what they do.
It was impossible not to notice the ethnicity of most of the men that commented. Could it be something that is more welcomed in their peer group, and they really don't get how damned irritating it could be to someone from outside that group? That's what I think, as I've irritated everyone in this thread by saying. Then again, most of them only saw the woman for a fleeting moment and offered up their commentary. It was almost like they were watching a television show, making remarks to no one in particular. Is this some kind of entertainment for them? Yes. See answer to first question.
Finally, they've got no clue that she'd already heard nine different versions of what they had to say already. (Although I doubt that learning this fact would change anything, as she hasn't heard 'their' particular version yet.)
I'm surprised that we weren't treated to a construction zone. Isn't that the stereotypical scene for this kind of behavior? Or am I lost in the 70's? There were probably too many sirens and such at the construction sites, so they didn't bother to include those sections in the video.
If you were lost in the 70's, you'd be watching BJ and the Bear.
I got this one.
Hah. Well, I'd hate to see you doing all the irritating by yourself.
I'm pretty good at it, if past experience counts?
CNN has a story on a PSA video edited by the anti-harrassment group "Hollaback!". Actually, here's the video on YouTube minus CNN's increasingly annoying ads.
I found myself getting a bit angry at the video. And I don't like that, because I agree with it far more than not.
The video finishes with text announcing (paraphrased): 100+ instances of verbal street harrassment took place within 10 hours... not including whistles winks, etc.
Here's what made me angry. I counted at least five instances *in the video* of men wishing her a nice day, or morning, or evening. That's harrassment? I don't see it, and I feel insulted by that..
This is pretty much exactly what I think, btw So I didn't have to say it, because you put it so well.
And I do think the questions raburrel brought up are interesting, kind of like where my mind went on that tangent, yes. I was jumping ahead of the actual conversation too much without explaining well, and I apologize again for that, but this line of thought is the kind of thing I had in mind. Thanks for that discussion
Here's what made me angry. I counted at least five instances *in the video* of men wishing her a nice day, or morning, or evening. That's harrassment? I don't see it, and I feel insulted by that.
It's a peeve of mine as well because I'm one of those "resting bitch face" people. There is really no difference between Smile! and I don't like the look on your face. Change it! Yet people who make this cringeworthy demand delude themselves that they're spreading joy. I mostly get it from older men--baby boomer generation dudes with hair growing out of their nostrils.The smile police (as I call them) are a pet peeve of mine, and they often do get some kind of remark out of me.
Though it's not harassment in itself, the context is important. She was singled out for most of those comments.