The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

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Stanmiller

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What rifle bullets do:

What it will do, is punch a hole in one side, deform and mushroom to a larger size, thereby making a larger hole as it travels through tissue and doing dmage to organs. It will drag behind it a vacuem bubble that expands inside the body rending and damaging further tissue untill the velocity decreases and it catches up with the bullet and deflates. The flattened and mushrromed bullet will usually then exit leaving a larger hole than the entrance. Entrance wound of a .30 caliber rifle (.308 or 7.62 or .30/06, .30/30 7.62x39 (ak round)) will be .30 of an inch diameter. Exit may be half an inch or up to a size you could put your fist into.
People do not get there heads 'blown off', however a high velocity rifle like this with a shot to the head will do considerable damage, shattering the skull and leaving a even larger wound than a body shot, simply because the braincase/skull is full of basially a liquid matter. Liquid does not compress under pressure. With a high velcocity bullet there will be a lot of matter blown out the back. For the truely grisly, and for this I apolgise, with a head shot and a high velocity weapon the eyes may be forced out of the sockets under the pressure and sit outside the skull over the eye cavity.
This same bullet for example, if shot through an empty dixie cup balanced precariously on top of say, a coke can, will not move the cup at all. It will poke a .30 caliber hole in one side and out the other without moving it. If you shot the full coke can, because of the water content, it will explode like a handgrenade.
(While we are on the subject, brain matter is not grey. It looks a tan sort of colour. )
As I described above a rifle hit will drop someone even without hitting the spine or brain simply because of the amount of internal damage done and the shock received by organs and muscles adjacent to the wound area.


What handgun bullets do:
Handgun bullets travel at a much slower velocity and do not do the devastating damage a rifle will do. But trust me that you will still notice it right away.
A bullet shot from a pistol or revolver will not knock a determined adrenaline-fueled attacker down - unless it gets him in the right place. The right place is the nervous system. By this I mean in the neck or anywhere along the spine. This will drop him in his tracks.
A truly enraged or stressed individual may take a shot through the heart and still continue for many seconds on adrenaline before his brain starves of oxygen and he passes out. Wounds from a pistol that do not immediately incapacitate the nervous system, wills till be fatal, but may take a few seconds or minutes to cause death. A chest shot that takes out a lung but misses the spine will cuae death but not immediately. By the time he has died from it he may have killed the shooter.
This all depends on the state of mind of the victim. If he is unthreatened and unaware he is in danger he will succumb to these wounds quickly. A man in a fight may not, due to adrenaline and the determination of his character.

In general, the wounds receieved from a firearm are much more devastating than most people realise.
However, there is no firearm or bullet that can knock or blow a man off his feet. It is a matter of physics. People die because of damage done to their organs.
There is no shotgun or large caliber pistol that can throw a man accross a room with the impact of the bullet or shot. It will, however, divest him of his essential life support system in the blink of an eye.

CH, welcome to AW. Good summary.

Might I add a few words about the type of bullet and the resulting damage? The wounds you describe are usually the result of expanding or hollow-point bullets, designed to expand on contact with soft tissue.

If a solid bullet is used, particularly the spitzer-shape with a sharp point, the bullet will tend to yaw once it penetrates, and may turn 180 90 degrees. This will produce a large wound track and exit wound even if the bullet does not expand or fragment.

The 5.56 NATO round has been described as 'tumbling' after impact. That's not accurate. It will yaw, but seldom turn end-for-end. Other calibers, including 7.62x51 NATO, will also yaw in this manner.

Stan

*Edited to correct stupid mistake...*
 
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Drachen Jager

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CH, welcome to AW. Good summary.

Might I add a few words about the type of bullet and the resulting damage? The wounds you describe are usually the result of expanding or hollow-point bullets, designed to expand on contact with soft tissue.

If a solid bullet is used, particularly the spitzer-shape with a sharp point, the bullet will tend to yaw once it penetrates, and may turn 180 degrees. This will produce a large wound track and exit wound even if the bullet does not expand or fragment.

The 5.56 NATO round has been described as 'tumbling' after impact. That's not accurate. It will yaw, but seldom turn end-for-end. Other calibers, including 7.62x51 NATO, will also yaw in this manner.

Stan

I was just coming here to say something similar. Also, in addendum, all (if there are exceptions I'm unaware of them) military ammunition is jacketed in this manner. Expanding bullets are against the Geneva Conventions, and they're generally seen as ineffective on the battlefield because they have less penetration and are more likely to kill. Killing is seen as less optimal than seriously wounding a soldier because a wounded soldier diverts resources to see him safely out of danger, while a dead soldier can be left to lie for a while.

Along the vein of an enraged man continuing to act after he's been shot, there was an incident in Florida some years back, where a Cop stopped a guy for DUI, the Cop let the guy go back to lock up his truck, and the driver produced a .357 revolver. In the following exchange he hit the cop twice in the vest, twice in the legs and once in the arm. The cop unloaded two full magazines, producing 14 hits and 19 wounds (entry/exit). One of the early shots clipped the driver's heart. The last two shots the cop fired were head shots, and it was the second of those that finally stopped the driver.

At the time of the final shot, the driver had climbed up on the back of his truck, unlocked his toolbox, and was reaching inside for a Tommy Gun.
 
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MichaelZWilliamson

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Some handgun bullets are fast enough to create a similar instantaneous wound channel. However, the energy levels are lower.

A typical 9mm is around 400 ft lbs. The "very powerful" (so we're told) 5.56mm rifle is around 1300 ft lbs--less than half the mass, but much higher velocity. A typical hunting/battle rifle round like a .30-06 is almost as fast as the 5.56, twice the mass, and has 2.25 as much energy (close to 3000 ft lbs). Some big game rifles push 6-8000 ft lbs, with a really big bullet at somewhat lower velocity.
 

Carlsen Highway

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IT would be best to split the discussion into two scenario's - full metal jacket or solid bullets as used in military weapons and scenes in which they are used and and soft point bullets for everything else, hunting firearms and guns in the hands of civilians.
I personally don't know anyone who shoots solid full metal jacket bullets except for military applications.

Michael, you are quite right, it is velocity that creates the larger wound damage. Speed kills. Energy figures give a very skewed idea of what will be achieved.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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MZW, that's a cool build! But I see the guy in Vermont isn't the only one with waaaay too much free time on his hands. :D

Eh. It's fun, promotional, a useful, marketable skill, saves me money and improves with practice. I buy a lot of "broken" guns I can fix in ten minutes with a couple of tools. I also buy spare or leftover parts and assemble working stuff. Somewhere along the way I got good enough that mfrs send me stuff to test and evaluate. I now get Christmas cards from gun companies. :)
 

Stanmiller

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Eh. It's fun, promotional, a useful, marketable skill, saves me money and improves with practice. I buy a lot of "broken" guns I can fix in ten minutes with a couple of tools. I also buy spare or leftover parts and assemble working stuff. Somewhere along the way I got good enough that mfrs send me stuff to test and evaluate. I now get Christmas cards from gun companies. :)

Ah! Free guns. Sign me up. Lessee, I have a big hammer and chisel. That enough tools?
 

Stanmiller

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A big hammer will do about a third of what an AK ever needs for maintenance. The trick is knowing where to hit.

Humor aside, quite a few WWII guns were built with chisels and files.

You bet. A while back, this guy shows up for fun day at our private range with an M3 grease gun. Talk about ugly. Worse than crude! Looked like it was made in a blacksmith shop. Stamped sheet metal, tolerances measured to the nearest half-inch. Accuracy was so-so, about what you'd expect from a worn-out barrel and half the rounds keyholed. But, the damn thing ran just fine, rattling off mag after mag of .45 ACP with no stoppages. It was a blast to shoot, in spite of being the ugliest gun ever. (Even uglier than the AK made from a shovel.)

Stan
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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I believe the WWII unit cost on Stens was $4 at the time. The Brits were building them in bicycle shops.

An unpleasant fact about gun bans is that a full auto SMG is the EASIEST gun to make. Making a gun shoot isn't the problem. Stopping it from shooting is the problem. Nations where guns aren't allowed, or during civil wars, have a profusion of cheap open bolt 9mm SMGs.
 

rixwrites

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Terminology for weapons - military

Hi, I have several characters going through Army Basic Training/SOAS and I am unsure of the correct terms to use when referring to various weapons. My setting is in 2125, so I don't want to be too specific with make or model, but I don't want to ruin a whole scene by calling something a gun when it would only ever be called a sidearm - for instance. I have used the word weapon rather generically, but just as a placeholder.
I have done some research but I'm not sure I have it quite right. My characters use a PDW - Personal Defense Weapon, M9 pistol (future version of course), assault rifle, sniper rifle, fragmentation grenade, stinger, knife/blade. If something is a rifle, is it always referred to as a rifle? Is a PDW the same as a sidearm and a pistol. And how would it be referred to. I used PDW as a more generic term, but maybe that's a requisition name and would never be used by a soldier. When would the word 'gun' or 'weapon' be used? Thank you for any help.
 

MoLoLu

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Hi, I have several characters going through Army Basic Training/SOAS and I am unsure of the correct terms to use when referring to various weapons. My setting is in 2125, so I don't want to be too specific with make or model, but I don't want to ruin a whole scene by calling something a gun when it would only ever be called a sidearm - for instance. I have used the word weapon rather generically, but just as a placeholder.
I have done some research but I'm not sure I have it quite right. My characters use a PDW - Personal Defense Weapon, M9 pistol (future version of course), assault rifle, sniper rifle, fragmentation grenade, stinger, knife/blade. If something is a rifle, is it always referred to as a rifle? Is a PDW the same as a sidearm and a pistol. And how would it be referred to. I used PDW as a more generic term, but maybe that's a requisition name and would never be used by a soldier. When would the word 'gun' or 'weapon' be used? Thank you for any help.

The issue here is that, in real life, soldiers wouldn't refer to their weapons that way any more than I'd call this keyboard a keyboard and my mouse a mouse (although it could be USB, PS/2, optical, ball ect. but it's still a mouse). The problem with that of course is that, in fiction, calling everything a rifle will confuse the hell out of the reader. You need some sort of identification.

And that depends on the character I think. And the reader. I'd use whatever allows for the clearest image. Gun/weapon doesn't sound specific enough for me. What gun? What weapon? If it isn't important to the story, sidearm, rifle, machine gun etc will do fine. Otherwise, if it's important to the character or story, give it a name or nickname. Even if you don't explain the name, that allows the reader to know the character is familiar with it.

Example: if the SzelarCorp Zank is someone's primary weapon and they use it all the time, plus the Zank shoots green balls of goopey plasma, no one cares what the technical definition is. It's just a Zank and it shoots green plasma. When someone gets slimed, they were zanked. You can built a little linguo-cult around that even if it doesn't make much sense.

Does this make any sense?
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Nomenclature will vary. I've been in units who insist on using the terms "vehicle" and "weapon" to be "professional." Others will say rifle and hummer/deuce.

In Basic, expect recruits to be taught the proper nomenclature and description, and able to recite it on command. But, course for the day may well be described "Small arms training, rifle." "Recruit, drop that rifle and you'll be pushing until _I'm_ tired."

And, while they will be taught nomenclature, operation, first echelon maintenance and basic characteristics such as range, they won't be taught details of alloy, propellant, terminal ballistics, etc. And if those are mentioned, it's 50/50 that the information is correct and promptly forgotten, since there is no context or impetus, or, that the instructor is entirely wrong while trying to sound clever.

Also, the reader doesn't need to know an excessive amount unless it's plot relevant.
 

rixwrites

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Thanks, those are both helpful. I am trying to stay in the middle, non-specific but not a fail either. In narrative I can say "he picked up his rifle and went out the door" and in dialogue I can say "Jimbo, grab your rifle, we've gotta go" and both work?
Also - do either of you have any info on what happens to a head when it is shot. Specifically, sidearm under the chin and forced to shoot himself. I honestly tried to research this but the hundreds of gore sights were hard to wade through and ballistics or EMT sources seem to focus on survivable GSW. I don't need tons of detail, but can I say "his head fell apart" or is collapse, explode, turn to mush, better descriptors. And if someone is shot in the head with a rifle from across a room, would there be splatter on the wall behind. I know that the type of bullet makes a difference, but I think that military do not use hollow point. Thanks again.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Thanks, those are both helpful. I am trying to stay in the middle, non-specific but not a fail either. In narrative I can say "he picked up his rifle and went out the door" and in dialogue I can say "Jimbo, grab your rifle, we've gotta go" and both work?
Also - do either of you have any info on what happens to a head when it is shot. Specifically, sidearm under the chin and forced to shoot himself.

Yes, on the former. Entirely believable phrasing to me as a vet.

As to the second, no one is "forcing" me to shoot myself unless they pull the trigger.

It will depend on the pistol and the load. There's a graphic video of the politician who shot himself up through the mouth in the late 70s in PA, IIRC. Not a huge hole, but while brain activity ceased, the heart kept pumping long enough to pour out his blood through head and mouth for about a minute. That was a .357 Magnum, IIRC.

I would guess ball ammo at close range would be similar.
 

Stanmiller

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Sorry for the blatant bump. I do have a real question.

Anybody have experience with the M134 minigun? I've heard (and seen) the Vulcan 20mm cannon on aircraft. They make a BRAAAAAP sound. The Minigun has a much higher rate of fire (3k rounds per minute) so should have much more of a high-pitched buzz.

Can anybody say for sure?
 

Billytwice

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Sorry for the blatant bump. I do have a real question.

Anybody have experience with the M134 minigun? I've heard (and seen) the Vulcan 20mm cannon on aircraft. They make a BRAAAAAP sound. The Minigun has a much higher rate of fire (3k rounds per minute) so should have much more of a high-pitched buzz.

Can anybody say for sure?

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA1QtgFGrYA

If your writing about it, don't forget the almost musical sound of tinkling spent cases, only really audible as the machine winds down when it stops firing.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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A gentleman at Knob Creek had a Minigun a few years back. There's about a 5' nimbus of muzzle flash, enough air movement to make a gentle, warm breeze about 20 feet away after a few seconds, and it looks like someone is pouring out a bucket of brass and links. Keep in mind the ammo cost is appalling--he went through $600 or so in ammo in 20 seconds, as one, long burst.
 
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Stanmiller

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A gentleman at Knob Creek had a Minigun a few years back. There's about a 5' nimbus of muzzle flash, enough air movement to make a gentle, warm breeze about 2 feet away after a few seconds, and it looks like someone is pouring out a bucket of brass and links. Keep in mind the ammo cost is appalling--he went through $600 or so in ammo in 20 seconds, as one, long burst.

Thanks. These guys can get military ammo so the cost isn't an issue. I like your image of brass falling out of bucket. I may use that.
Stan
 
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