The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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keltora

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Ol' Fashioned Girl said:
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=7718

Some interesting comments in this little thread... and an appearance by the ever-entertaining and creatively deceptive Vipersmile...

I'm surprised it's still up.

I think the saddest one is the poster who said they went to PA because they could not afford the $4000 another publisher wanted to publish their book...

I can only shake my head. When I see this, I always wish I had known the person and been able to tell them DON'T!!!!

Money Flows Towards The Writer.

*sigh*
 

James D. Macdonald

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No, no, no! You don't pay the publisher $4,000! The publisher pays you $4,000! You're the one with the thing of value!

==============

Meanwhile, another PA thread here: Agent's Interesting Observation

A PA author says:

From Writer's Digest, Nov 2005: "Agent Lori Perkins of the L. Perkins Agency in New York says it's much easier to market a first-time novelist's book if the word count falls between 80,000 and 100,000 words, or roughly 300 double-spaced, typed pages--the average novel length.

"One-third of the novels that come into the agency are rejected because they're too long or short, (Perkins says), "The cost greatly increases on books larger than 100,000, so agents and publishers are less likely to gamble on a manuscript the size of a dictionary." END OF QUOTE.

It's good to know we don't have that problem with Publish America, who, from my experience, publishes relatively small books as well as those exceeding 300 pages.

I thought this might be helpful to those of you, who may be holding a manuscript and wondering what to do with it. Send it to PA for review. Maybe it will jump-start your writing career. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Let me explain this, because I can see there's some confusion.

Publishers don't drive publishing. Printers don't drive publishing. Agents don't drive publishing. Bookstores don't drive publishing. Nor do editors. Not even writers drive publishing.

Do you want to know who drives publishing? It's the readers.

First thing you should know: Readers have a sticking-point when it comes to prices. That price is around $28 for a trade cloth (hardcover) book.

Second thing you should know: The unit price of a book decreases as the print run goes up.

Third thing you should know: First novels by unknowns have relatively predictable, and relatively small, sales.

Bookstores won't order books with cover prices that customers won't pay. They can fill the same shelf space with books that might move.

The longer the book, the higher the cost of printing it.

Say a book comes in at 120,000 words. Say it's a normal first novel by an unknown. The publisher figures that it'll sell perhaps 5,000 copies, which means printing and shipping around 7,000 copies.

The publisher can't do that and maintain a price point below $28, while covering their overhead and making a profit.

So they raise the cover price. What happens? Bookstores decrease their orders. So the print run has to go down. That makes the price go up. The bookstores look at the new price, and decrease their orders again. You see where this is going?

Why is all this happening? Because readers won't open their wallets for trade cloth books above $28. Not even by authors they know and like.

What's the solution? Going to PublishAmerica isn't it. Sure, PA will accept the book. They accept anything. Will this jump-start your career? No. Because however high a real publisher would have had to put the price of a hardcover, PA will put the price of a trade paperback even higher. Readers, we know, won't touch the book. You've thrown away your first rights, you're locked into an unfavorable seven-year contract, and your sales history will be horrible.

The real answer is this: Write and sell another book of a more marketable length for a first-time writer. After it comes out, and it's bought and read, you'll have fans who are looking for your next book. Then you can bring out that 120,000 word book. The publisher will be able to print enough copies to justify a $28 price point. Your fans will buy it, new readers will buy it, and you have a happy ending.

Short books, now ... novellas are very hard to sell to publishers. Why? Because readers don't buy them.

I could discuss the path that brought Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, (a first novel weighing in at 800 typeset pages) to press. Notice, please, the price point: $27.95.

How did Bloomsbury manage that? By printing a ton of them. What did they do then? They launched a huge publicity campaign to move that ton of books.

Why did they do that for Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell? Because they believed in it. Why don't they do that for every book? Because they have limited resources, even with a bank account the size of Rhode Island full of Potter-bucks backing them up. Plus, even with the biggest publicity campaign in the world, if the readers don't like the book they'll leave it lying on the shelf.

Please notice that Lori Perkins specified a "first-time novelist." Those are the ones who rely on impulse purchases in bookstores. When you're relying on impulse purchasing, it behooves you to make your book the sort of thing that readers who are buying on impulse are likely to take.
 
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Bufty

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I thought this might be helpful to those of you, who may be holding a manuscript and wondering what to do with it. Send it to PA for review. Maybe it will jump-start your writing career. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I may be unduly cynical in thinking this, but I see a touch of bitterness in my highlight in the quoted 'come join us' section from the above post.
 
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James D. Macdonald

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Let's assume that long book is well-written.

What the publisher is saying is "We can't sell this for the price we'd have to charge."

If a real publisher -- with their promotion, marketing, and advertising staff, with their access to bookstores, with their sales force, with their reputation, with their distribution, with major reviewers eager to read their offerings -- can't sell that book for that particular price, what makes you think that you, all by yourself, can sell it for a higher price?
 

astonwest

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James D. Macdonald said:
I imagine it'll go like this:


Good news! PublishAmerica has boldly taken the lead in proving that "returns" don't lead to higher sales! Therefore, PublishAmerica books will be made non-returnable.
...
You are once again innovators bringing publishing into the 21st century!​


The only thing missing, in my opinion, is the "stick it to 'em" portion of the text common to most correspondence from the DisInfoCenter...

So instead of "PublishAmerica has boldly taken the lead in proving that "returns" don't lead to higher sales!" we would see something along these lines:

"During the course of our experiment in returnability for our books, PublishAmerica has proven what we knew all along, that it doesn't result in higher sales. So, in order to cut costs and continue to bring you your book FREE OF CHARGE, we will be making all our titles non-returnable effective immediately."
(as opposed to making them non-returnable over the course of multiple months)

At least that's my take on the matter...
 

SC Harrison

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Ouch!

I probably deserved this, but:


**, I went and had a look at what you were talking about.
Did you take a look at the person who was calling this thread "Hokey?"
SC Harrison aka Mr P.A. support hose himself. He goes on the P.A. boards telling all the authors about how great P.A. is, and then he goes on AW portraying to be anti-PA. Honestly, give me a break!
That`s why he`s attempting to discredit you, and this site **. He`s Pro-PA. Nice try Harrison, but it ain`t gonna work.



Even hoses have feelings too...
 

SeanDSchaffer

Man, Steve, I'm sorry that happened to you. What site is that? I want to know, so I'll remember which site not to visit.

I don't like seeing writers being treated like so much garbage, and I don't care who does it. That kind of treatment just is not right.
 

DeePower

Steve and Sean

Take a deep breath, don't take it personally.

Believe me I know that's hard. Several posters on this board, the AW board, who used to be PA boosters, Used to ream me out as the queen b!tch of PA bashers until the the truth hit them between the eyes.

I always hated this line in movies, but I'll use it now: Stay focused people!

Know who the opposition is.

Dee
 

SC Harrison

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SeanDSchaffer said:
Man, Steve, I'm sorry that happened to you. What site is that? I want to know, so I'll remember which site not to visit.

I don't like seeing writers being treated like so much garbage, and I don't care who does it. That kind of treatment just is not right.

Sean (and Dee) I have to confess, I was really just being melodramatic. Besides, I cast the first stone anyway so, you know, there's not much moral highground for me to shout my outrage from.

Although she did mischaracterize my activity in both realms, it is true that I have yet to become a staunch anti-PA activist. I also have a link to my website down there (no, right there...that's it) where you can order my PA book if you so desire. While there are many aspects of my personal experience with PA that I am not happy with, and I do wish I'd never signed the contract, I am still actively (if somewhat lazily) promoting the sales of my book. If this makes me a PA hose, then hose I am.

This middle ground I am standing in will make me a pariah to many in both worlds, but many others may find comfort that this ground exists. PA authors need to know that they don't have to toe the line and break their hearts (and wallets) trying to sell their book; they also don't have to write it off like a literary miscarriage, either.

I would also like to thank Jenna and the Mod Squad for tolerating my frequently off-topic ramblings. While it may not further the cause in the classic sense, it does add legitimacy to the objectivity of the members here.
 
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Jean Marie

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Steve, the problem w/ the middle ground, which I'd also call the gray area, is, it won't last. It's kind of like sitting on the fence, it's gonna start to hurt after a while
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Eventually, you're going to have to make a decision of some kind. Not really promoting your book isn't going to help you. Who cares if it hurts PA. If you don't buy any of them, that will hurt the criminals.

What will hurt you more than anything, is not writing another book and querying it out to agents/commercial publishers. And do not ever mention PA in a query letter-whoever reads it, will immediately throw it in the garbage. I've personal experience w/ this.

It's a tough spot to be in, at least that's how you may feel at the moment. Once you've decided to move forward and not look back, it's the most freeing emotion in the world. There's nothing that it compares to.

PA is w/o a doubt a cult. Think about it; you've got willie and larry who fell flat on their collective arses when it came to writing. So, the closest they could get to publishing/printing was to hook up w/ an ex-con and scam innocent, naive authors. To take it a step further, they hire young women fresh out of college or high school w/ dreams of being honest to God editors w/ no background whatsoever. Then they lock them in a room w/ no telephones, no access to the outside world and have them run spell check programs on ms's. And they call them editors
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Jeez, my dog could do that
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Hmm, maybe he could pay for his food...naw, I couldn't do that to the poor guy. Someone would call the ASPCA on me.

It's a realization that will come to you, no one can take you there.
 

JennaGlatzer

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SC, "tolerating" you isn't a problem-- I like you. (Granted, I don't visit the other boards much, so I have no idea what the outrage is about-- but based on who you are here, I think you're a straight shooter.) I think you're brave to be where you are and I understand the position you're in. I've often said I don't know if I'd be brave enough to dissuade people from buying my own book. That's a painful decision, and I'm pretty amazed by how many people are willing to sacrifice that to make their point loud and clear.
 

SeanDSchaffer

Don't worry about it Steve....

SC Harrison said:
Sean (and Dee) I have to confess, I was really just being melodramatic. Besides, I cast the first stone anyway so, you know, there's not much moral highground for me to shout my outrage from.

Although she did mischaracterize my activity in both realms, it is true that I have yet to become a staunch anti-PA activist. I also have a link to my website down there (no, right there...that's it) where you can order my PA book if you so desire. While there are many aspects of my personal experience with PA that I am not happy with, and I do wish I'd never signed the contract, I am still actively (if somewhat lazily) promoting the sales of my book. If this makes me a PA hose, then hose I am.

This middle ground I am standing in will make me a pariah to many in both worlds, but many others may find comfort that this ground exists. PA authors need to know that they don't have to toe the line and break their hearts (and wallets) trying to sell their book; they also don't have to write it off like a literary miscarriage, either.

....Snipped.


When I first came here, I was middle-ground all the way. And you and Uncle Jim and Dee are right: I ought not to take it personal when things like you described happen--it just hurts to see a fellow writer put down.

Middle-ground is not a problem with me, Steve, as I can attest it isn't to many others here. Take heart, and I look forward to reading more of your posts.
 

SC Harrison

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JennaGlatzer said:
SC, "tolerating" you isn't a problem-- I like you. (Granted, I don't visit the other boards much, so I have no idea what the outrage is about-- but based on who you are here, I think you're a straight shooter.) I think you're brave to be where you are and I understand the position you're in. I've often said I don't know if I'd be brave enough to dissuade people from buying my own book. That's a painful decision, and I'm pretty amazed by how many people are willing to sacrifice that to make their point loud and clear.

Thanks, Jenna. Why is it every time you address a post to me I feel guilty that I've taken you away from some writing assignment that is almost overdue, and you could have barely met the deadline if you hadn't taken the time to acknowledge me? Meh, you probably needed the break anyway.

Unlike some, I am not driven to write. I do thoroughly enjoy writing, and I am constantly amazed that I actually have the ability to compose reasonably well-written prose, but I am easily distracted. I sorely lament the time that I squander, and make countless resolutions to remedy the situation, but the lack of substantial progress remains. I have learned this: if I focus too much on the negative, which includes the dismal prospects for my first full-length manuscript, my writing bouts are fewer and farther between. So, I choose to view my (PA) book as a legitimate work, but not a publishing achievement.

That paragraph makes less sense each time I read it, but I'm a published author, so it must have some merit. ;)
 

Jean Marie

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Steve, I have to disagree w/ you on one point: you've been printed by PA, not published. It has nothing to do w/ whether or not your book has merit, it's an unfortunate fact. My contract w/ the PA printing machine has been ended. Now, I've got the opportunity to have it honestly published. I've spent 3 1/2 months editing it.
 

JennaGlatzer

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I think that's why he did the winky-face. ;)

And this:

So, I choose to view my (PA) book as a legitimate work, but not a publishing achievement.

is a great way to look at it. That's one of the things I've been harping on-- being printed by PA doesn't invalidate the hard work you put into the book. So okay, not a great decision for where to send it, but it doesn't mean anything at all in terms of your talent or the merits of your work.

Oh, and Steve, I'm totally blaming you when my editor wants to know why chapter 9 is late. I usually blame Dawno, but I think she'll be glad to have a break as the world's best scapegoat.
 

Dawno

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I haven't been blamed for much lately. It's nice to be back on top of my game again.

Edit: I need to read things more carefully. I see that Steve gets the blame this time round. Steve, welcome to my world. :)

Yes, Jenna, it's nice to have a break. The whole global warming thing was starting to be a real burden.
 
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Bufty

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http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=95458#95458PA Board -
I am going to write something controversial but true: many of the posts above are riddled with basic writing mistakes. I'm sure I will be pilloried for mentioning this, but many out there would benefit from learning the proper use of the apostrophe (it is not used for making plurals) & avoiding common spelling mistakes. Please, take the time to visit some sites on grammar (not "grammer") and punctuation! For heaven's sake, make an effort to learn your craft!


A rather silly reply from an admitted novice -
Now I have to disagree with you XXXX, your being very picky - this is a message board, not a writing test!

Not everyone on this site is American either, im from the UK and as you know, some spelling and grammer are different, but even if it wasn't, there is no law which says every piece of text you write has to be perfect.... this is why we have editors!

Authors with any pride in their work don't write careful prose for publication and then display sloppy grammatical nonsense on their web-site and posts. Surely there must be folk reading these posts and web-sites who are beginning to question the veracity of PA's so-called selection procedure.
 

SC Harrison

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There's no law that says you have to bathe every day either.

Bufty, I've had this argument with folks over there so many times I've lost count. My last encounter went rather well, and the girl in question seemed to appreciate my "help" in pointing out her spelling errors. She probably wanted to strangle me; nobody likes to be corrected in public, even if they know they were wrong.

As you said, due to PA's acceptance criteria, there are many authors whose verbal skills are somewhat wanting. I'm sure this is a deterrant for some prospective authors viewing the public board, but, there are also some who read it and say, "Wow. I can write better than that, so I definitely won't have any problem being accepted by PA."

Since the lion's share of authors signing are totally inexperienced in publishing, they don't see this lack of selectivity in the same light as others. Many view it as a sign the publisher is "forgiving" in nature, and willing to bend the rules a little to give more people a chance. What they don't realize is, they are only being given a chance to buy the books themselves, and provide a list of friends and family who are likely to do so as well.
 

postshy

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SC Harrison.....

I understand a little better where you are coming from now. I may sound like I want to emulate God sometimes:), but I become very frustrated when I see how many people PA have hurt, and still are hurting. Not so long ago, well maybe a year or so, I stood where you are standing now. I did not want to believe what had happened to me. I wanted to remain safe in tht grey area, where I had a published (O.K. Jean Marie, "printed") book.

I remember defending not PublishAmerica, but the quality of my book, when I first posted on this forum. A few people jumped on me right away and considered me a "troll" or PA "shill". Well, guess what, I still defend the job PA did on my book back then. I had one of the very few reasonably good editors, but I hate PA for making fools of us by their weasel wording which they are still doing. Returnable books my you-know-what. More lies!

I have blanked my website with PA and no longer promote my book. I have moved on, still facing rejections, but gaining ground inch by inch. Please accept my apologies if I seemed a bit harsh in some of my earlier posts but, as a PA author, I have faced it all, including the cheating and the "tone" letters, and at that time I was still one of their supporters. It burns me up to watch it happening over and over again as more naive people walk into the carefully baited trap.

I read Victoria Strauss's dissertation on PA's Contract and I cannot believe how easily I fell for it. I did go over it carefully but, as Victoria pointed out, from a positive "spin". Knowing what I know now, I can see every point where I misread their ambiguous wording, and I do not consider myself a fool, yet I was.

Thanks to AW, I knew about their "amendment" contract before I received it. Had I not read this thread, I too might have fallen for it, as I suspect many did.

You write well as I can tell from your posts, but I do get upset when others say that grammar and spelling do not matter. They do; typos can be forgiven, but as a reader I am not going to read a badly written and edited book, no matter how good the plot is.


However, I do not have a God complex:) I can assure you.

postshy/Roberta
 

Jean Marie

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SC Harrison said:
As you said, due to PA's acceptance criteria, there are many authors whose verbal skills are somewhat wanting. I'm sure this is a deterrant for some prospective authors viewing the public board, but, there are also some who read it and say, "Wow. I can write better than that, so I definitely won't have any problem being accepted by PA."

I put that sentence in bold, because it hit me right between the eyes. Holy blasted cow, what a hit the nail on the head that statement is
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No wonder they leave that cr*p up, it's a monumental hook.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Blast from the Past time:

Remember a year ago, when Hedda Nussbaum (yes, that Hedda Nussbaum) posted on the PA Message Board, asking for advice?

Well, her book's out. It apparently came out in mid-September. Surviving Intimate Terrorism by Hedda Nussbaum.

As of this morning, Google finds only a scant handful of mentions of that book on the Web.

What are those links?

First, there's Publishers Marketplace, where Ms. Nussbaum's agent is peddling translation and dramatic rights.

Next, there's an old thread at Mindsight, quoting Ms. Nussbaum's message from the PAMB, with a little bit of discussion.

There's commentary right here in the NEPAT, again from a year ago. (Remember when the NEPAT had less than 100 pages?)

There's the book's release info at PublishAmerica.

And there are the on-line bookstores:

Amazon.

No cover picture. No editorial reviews. No sales rank. No sales. We learn that this book came out on the 12th of September, 2005. That's well over a month ago -- closing in on two months. Why no cover or editorial material? All that takes is one, single email. What happened to the high-level delegation from PA that went to Washington State to talk with Amazon? Did they get left sitting in an outer office with no one to take a meeting with them?

Yo, PA Drone Who Monitors AW: Could you fix this? Get the cover pictures and the blurb posted, at least. It wouldn't kill you to send out a press release, either. Hasn't Ms. Nussbaum suffered enough?

BN.com

No cover picture. No "About This Book." And the date of publication is wrong: It's listed as 2000, not 2005.

Sales rank: 507,708

At least there's been a sale, but that rank tells me that there've been very, very few. Perhaps there's only been one. Personal friend of the author? The author herself?

PA monitor! There's work to be done!

There's also an Italian on-line bookstore listing this book. They repeat the date error from BN.com; I expect that they're just sucking the information from there.

This is a book about a well-known event, by one of the major people involved -- with an introduction by Gloria Steinem. Yet PA's marketing and promotion isn't just minimal. It's sub-minimal.

No reviews anywhere.

Pathetic, Larry. Pathetic, Moe. Willie, would you at least pretend to be a publisher?
 
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Jean Marie

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Jim that's a crime. PA's complicit in furthering abuse on this poor woman who has already suffered enough. I guess willie, lar and moe have no problem w/ causing more pain to Hedda. This puts them in another realm below evil.

PublishAmerica=Evil Criminals
 
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