I've heard that point before--that it's about control--but it isn't the passages about his controlling her dress, eating, working out, etc that have women reaching for their vibrators (so I'm told), it was the whips and clamps and "insertions" that got them all hot and bothered. And not being judgmental here, just curios about why that seems so erotic to women.
50 Shades of Grey?
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And the pain is consensual, I think y'all are missing the point when it's been explained it's CONSENSUAL SEX. I think it's silly and demeaning to survivors to compare to it rape though. Rape is not consensual sex. Rape is a horrible act committed on another person without permission.
Pain can be pleasure. BDSM may not be your thing but you don't seem to understand why people find different things pleasurable. Which the simple answer is and I've said it to you before, because everyone has different kinks and find different things pleasurable. Because y'all not everyone gets off on the same things.
i don't know where you think I compared this to rape.but you may want to re-read my responses. You seem to be the only one bringing that up. And I'm not so interested in the relationship of the characters, but in the apparent wide appeal to women, especially women over thirty, which seems to be it's main audience.
Don't get me wrong, I think you could find a niche audience for anything. But this has been much wider than a niche. And as I've said before, I seriously doubt all of these women are engaged in the BDSM lifestyle or that all of them find pain pleasurable.
Also I do question the consensual nature. It seems to me the male character manipulates her both emotionally and sexually, almost training her to "want what he wants her to want." There seems to be more than a little, "Stockhold-Syndrome" in the way he grooms her.
In either event, it would seem the broad appeal implies that many women find the either enjoy the fantasy of being "consequently hurt", or that the fantasy revolves around them as voyeurs, watching it happen to someone else.
Hate to keep sounding like Spock, but I find either possibility... fascinating.
Don't get me wrong, I think you could find a niche audience for anything. But this has been much wider than a niche. And as I've said before, I seriously doubt all of these women are engaged in the BDSM lifestyle or that all of them find pain pleasurable.
Also I do question the consensual nature. It seems to me the male character manipulates her both emotionally and sexually, almost training her to "want what he wants her to want." There seems to be more than a little, "Stockhold-Syndrome" in the way he grooms her.
In either event, it would seem the broad appeal implies that many women find the either enjoy the fantasy of being "consequently hurt", or that the fantasy revolves around them as voyeurs, watching it happen to someone else.
Hate to keep sounding like Spock, but I find either possibility... fascinating.
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I brought it up because the other poser you were talking to brought it up.
i_paint_the_sky said:
It's a tamer version of a rape fantasy, which is much more common than you might think and certainly wouldn't involve women actually wanting someone to be raped.
You talk like another man though who thinks he knows what's best for women, what you think should be acceptable for women to find pleasurable, and what you think she should be finding pleasurable.
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edited to add:
Okay.
Now that I actually have a response...
What it comes down to, RJLeahy, is that BDSM is a kink. Some people have this kink. If you don't 'get it', then all the explanation in the world is not going to help you 'get it'.
Good or bad, women are drawn to this book. Whether it's the previously unexplored world of BDSM for them (something forbidden and dark and mysterious and perhaps even holds a hit of the romantic danger), whether it's that the book hit some sort of resonant chord in them that pinged on their fantasies of being cared for, of not having to make the decisions in a relationship, their lives, even something as simple as being told what to wear, whether it's they are presented with an emotionally distant man that the heroine finally breaks through and wins his love....it is attractive to them.
Does it matter why if it's not something you 'get'?
However, those who do 'get it' have the right to try to correct many misinformation that arise around it and to have it implied that women are into BDSM because they're into rape fantasies (which another commentor impled) is really short-sighted and doesn't demonstrate a good grasp of what all BDSM implies. It's not just people playing at bondage and tittering when they get off. It's deep, vast, and complicated and the reasons why people are drawn to it are varied and sometimes not easy to put into words.
So to spout off declarations as to what the toys do or why they are used or why the people who use them...when you don't even understand why someone would be attracted to BDSM in the first place?
Problematic.
Incidentally, when you start asking questions in a forum, you're going to get answers. These answers you may not like, but you're going to get them and you don't get to dictate who does or doesn't respond to you. If you don't like the answers, skip them.
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Sometimes it takes me awhile to see irony.
You talk like another man though who thinks he knows what's best for women, what you think should be acceptable for women to find pleasurable, and what you think she should be finding pleasurable.
Isn't this just what the main character does to this young girl throughout the book?
You talk like another man though who thinks he knows what's best for women, what you think should be acceptable for women to find pleasurable, and what you think she should be finding pleasurable.
Isn't this just what the main character does to this young girl throughout the book?
Yea but we weren't talking about that, we were talking about how squicked and perplexed you were by the thought that women enjoy, consensually and participate in BDSM and anything like that.
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Perhaps they like the book because they have finally found porn that doesn't focus on the male-gaze. It's porn they can relate to. It's porn they find attractive.
Women like to be titillated and tantalized, too. It's actually nice to finally have a source where we're not looking through the camera of the male view.
Possible, but too weak a theory. There have been any number of female-view erotica written over the years, yet none I can remember has had this effect on this wide a population of women. But your answer does bring up an interesting question: if the same activities portrayed in this book had been written through the male character's perspective, would it have been as popular?
He's a fictional character, you're a real person.
Anyway, we answered your question that it's about control more than pain, even if you can't look past the pain part.
Anyway, we answered your question that it's about control more than pain, even if you can't look past the pain part.
Squicked means I suppose grossed out.
You say you have no interest in what two people do in their private lives. But somehow what turns a women on and what they like to read is in your interest.
Why is that any of your concern though about why BDSM and other activities turn women on even if they don't participate in the activities first hand? That's what porn is for, this is what fantasies are about, people watch it and get off on it but that's their prerogative if they want to engage in the activities in real life.
I'm sure many men get turned on by stuff they don't participate in them themselves. This is what is called a fantasy. I've no clue why this is in your interest why a woman reads erotic and gets off on it.
Heck I read and love reading about vampires but I'm not going to meet one. I'm not going to be participating in any vampire activities myself but I watch and read thing about them because it's a fantasy, and as a reader I like to to immerse myself in that world, watch and read about them even though I'll never experience it in real life.
Lol I'm not defending the male character I'm just explaining that women like all different kinds of sex, they may or may not participate in real life but we sure love to read and watch it just as much as men.
Why it's in my interest what women enjoy reading? Really, you can't figure that out? Ok, then: I'm a writer. I'm interested in EVERYTHING written that finds a wide audience. And I find the WHY of what is erotic here, very interesting, more than just saying, "it just is and stop asking about it."
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Good questions and some that really have me perplexed. Why this book? Why this time?
I think the same could be asked about every book that manages to break out like that. Twilight, The Da Vinci Code, The Hunger Games, The Help. What about these books, books written, while original and fresh, are still about themes that are as old as time.
Is it the fresh twist on the subject? I think that's part of it. Does it go back to a compelling story? Interesting characters? Yes but why these characters, why this story?
I really do think these books hit like lightning at the right time and tends to be mostly happenstance. The conditions are right for when that lightning strikes, it starts a brushfire in dry conditions and then it's out of control.
I'm gonna have to say at this time....probably not. At least not to the Public At Large. When I think on it, mull it over a bit, I may change my mind. :/ Need more thinky time on that.
I'm gonna have to say at this time....probably not. At least not to the Public At Large. When I think on it, mull it over a bit, I may change my mind. :/ Need more thinky time on that. __________________
No, I think you're right (my wife thinks so too, if that means anything). First of all, I think it would then be directed toward a male audience and while there seems to be general belief that most men have domination fantasies, my own life experiences tell that really isn't so. I think as a male-view novel, it would have been a niche book at best.
No, I think you're right (my wife thinks so too, if that means anything). First of all, I think it would then be directed toward a male audience and while there seems to be general belief that most men have domination fantasies, my own life experiences tell that really isn't so. I think as a male-view novel, it would have been a niche book at best.
Never mind I feel like I'm talking to wall. You seem to miss everything else I say that puts in context the question you're now asking. The full question is: Why is that any of your concern though about why BDSM and other activities turn women on even if they don't participate in the activities first hand?
I feel like you're trying to find an answer that obviously I as a woman can't answer but confirms your own beliefs on women's sexuality rather than listening to what actual women have to say?
No, fireluxlou, but yours hasn't been the only answer I've received and not all have been in agreement with you. I'm simply looking for other views and you keep wanting to tell me that you have the only view I need.
For background: I had a very lively and extremely interesting discussion with my wife's friends concerning this book but got very vague and often different ideas of what they found "erotic" in the novel. My wife didn't care for it at all and found the entire relationship pathological. Well, she's a Clinical Psychologist and they can be that way.
Her friends on the other hand, found it very arousing, although almost to a woman thought it was poorly written with cardboard characters. Still, it sells.
For background: I had a very lively and extremely interesting discussion with my wife's friends concerning this book but got very vague and often different ideas of what they found "erotic" in the novel. My wife didn't care for it at all and found the entire relationship pathological. Well, she's a Clinical Psychologist and they can be that way.
Her friends on the other hand, found it very arousing, although almost to a woman thought it was poorly written with cardboard characters. Still, it sells.
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And within that niche, I'm sure it would still do quite well. There are those within erotica that like those themes, like to explore them, read them. I think that bears out quite a bit, actually, in the browsing of the erotica epublishers catalogues as much as I've seen, at least.
Perhaps what has brought it all to head at this time, with this book is the being at the right place, right time. The author had a book (whatever the origins of it were) that was doing well within a niche. Someone, somewhere saw it, read it and said 'this puts a finger on an untapped pulse'.
With the added avalanche of a previously built up fanbase through the smaller epublisher, the momentum just carried it along. It got a big advance, then it got news mention, women who don't seek out erotica (probably didn't know it existed in this form and thought all erotica was porn...which equated to porn being for men and therefore not of much interest to them) took notice, bought it and word of mouth carried it to new heights.
Here was something for women. Something men enjoy in the privacy of their basement, now they have something that is just for them. And it touches that chord in them because the MC is a woman, just like them. Perhaps they remember that time when they were young, naive, unjaded...and they want to recapture that. Add to it the dark and forbidding and unknown of BDSM that is only whispered about behind hands and with harsh hisses....
The more I look at it from this angle, it's not hard to see why this book managed to completely take off like it did.
*shakes fist* how dare you make me thinky think on this?!? /jk
bearilou, I agree that a lot of success in any novel may simply be unexplainable and you've listed some good examples of recent ones. That may be the case here. I will say that had I been asked to guess, I would have expected most reader's reaction to the sex, to be more of curiosity (things whispered about with harsh whispers) as opposed to full-blown erotic fantasy.
Right now I'm 40,000 words into a dark novel (I'm talking Cormac McCarthy's, The Road, dark) and while it definitely isn't erotica, there are a few erotic elements, so I perhaps, have more than a passing interest in what works in this regard.
Right now I'm 40,000 words into a dark novel (I'm talking Cormac McCarthy's, The Road, dark) and while it definitely isn't erotica, there are a few erotic elements, so I perhaps, have more than a passing interest in what works in this regard.