12-year-old protag = deal breaker?

AbbyBabble · Aug 6, 2014

I wrote a 102k word science fantasy novel, aimed at the YA crossover and adult markets.

The main protagonist is a twelve-year-old telepath who absorbs other peoples's memories, giving him godlike knowledge. The novel has multiple POVs, and the other characters are adults--but after many edits and rewrites, I feel that this novel needs to start in his POV in chapters 1 & 2.

His age seems to be a major red flag to industry professionals. The writing style and query pitch are clearly not Middle Grade, so they see a child POV and assume I don't know my target audience.

Would it help if I mention that it's a multiple POV novel in the query letter?

Or should I make the 12-year-old protagonist into an 18-year-old? That would ruin the story (his age is integral to the plot), but his age seems to be a major roadblock to getting it read (combined with this one other major red flag item).

cornflake · Aug 6, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
I wrote a 102k word science fantasy novel, aimed at the YA crossover and adult markets.

The main protagonist is a twelve-year-old telepath who absorbs other peoples's memories, giving him godlike knowledge. The novel has multiple POVs, and the other characters are adults--but after many edits and rewrites, I feel that this novel needs to start in his POV in chapters 1 & 2.

His age seems to be a major red flag to industry professionals. The writing style and query pitch are clearly not Middle Grade, so they see a child POV and assume I don't know my target audience.

Would it help if I mention that it's a multiple POV novel in the query letter?

Or should I make the 12-year-old protagonist into an 18-year-old? That would ruin the story (his age is integral to the plot), but his age seems to be a major roadblock to getting it read (combined with this one other major red flag item).

Again, I'd ask how you know that's a roadblock to getting it read?

You have a 12-year-old MC, which is naturally going to seem MG, but if the voice and plot are clearly not, it'd seem obvious it's not an MG novel.

Have you put your query up?

Old Hack · Aug 6, 2014

If the book is well-written and has a great plot and story, then this is not an issue.

Consider Liz Jensen's The Rapture, or The Nine Lives of Louis Drax; or Karen Thompson Walker's The Age of Miracles. There are plenty more that I can think of. Having a child protagonist does not prevent good books from being published in any genre. Poor writing does.

Feldkamp · Aug 6, 2014

Half the POVs in the Song of Fire and Ice series are of children (though HBO has done a good job of making us forget that fact) - Bran is only 7 in the first novel and it in no way detracts from the genre or readability.

If your writing and plot are strong enough to carry the POV, then I wouldn't change the character's age.

waylander · Aug 6, 2014

Do you state in your query that your novel is aimed at the adult market?

heza · Aug 6, 2014

It's fine to have a child's POV in novels other than MG. The only thing that gives me pause is that you said you're aiming it at a YA audience--yet the POVs are either children or adults. Is it really a YA novel? I think YA audiences have a greater need to have a primary MC "like them." Would this work as adult fiction?

As to your other red flag, are you very clear in your query that you do end up subverting the trope?

Marlys · Aug 6, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
...his age seems to be a major roadblock to getting it read (combined with this one other major red flag item).

If you want to discuss the other red flag item here, maybe you should say what it is? That way, people could follow the conversation without hopping back and forth.

Sage · Aug 6, 2014

If you're saying it's YA/adult crossover (which you should never say, btw. They want you to pick a market), then it probably is a roadblock. If you're just saying YA, it's also a roadblock. 12yo is MG age, or it can be an adult book.

sassandgroove · Aug 6, 2014

Marlys said:
If you want to discuss the other red flag item here, maybe you should say what it is? That way, people could follow the conversation without hopping back and forth.

Good point. I didn't even notice the link.

Hapax Legomenon · Aug 6, 2014

I'm with Sage. You're probably best off saying it's an adult book. From what you've described, it sounds a lot like an adult book, anyway.

Toothpaste · Aug 6, 2014

Another voice jumping on the "either it's MG or adult, it can't be YA" bandwagon. There aren't tons of rules with YA but one of them is it has to have a teenage protagonist. This is why, for example, they have aged up the protagonist of THE GIVER in the movie so that it can be sold as a YA film not a MG.

I think you are fine trying to sell the book as adult as long as the book is firmly written with an adult voice and about adult themes.

As far as subverting your trope is concerned, do you mention that right in the query letter? That might help. "While the book starts out as a stereotypical chosen one adventure, it subverts the reader's expectations and at about a quarter of the way through the story it turns out that this isn't your typical genius saves the world plot" - or something to that effect . . .

Fizgig · Aug 6, 2014

I'm also curious how you know why your book isn't being read? Have you gotten feedback from agents? I read your other issue post as well and think, unless you're getting directed feedback at those specific issues, there could be a million reasons agents/beta readers aren't getting beyond the beginning.

In fact, most books submitted don't get past the first few pages with agents.

In relation to your issue questions, my impression is that a young MC is fine as long as you make it clear the audience. You second issue, subverting tropes will make your book approximately 1 million times more likely to get read -- you just have to say clearly in your query that you are doing so (give the agent a reason to keep reading by letting them know).

AbbyBabble · Aug 6, 2014

I've consistently had great reactions from beta readers, and auto-rejections from agents. One bit of feedback that I get from 100% of industry readers is: "Are you aware that your character is too young for YA/adult?"

'Normal' beta readers don't have the same expectations, and they seem to be reading it as a book intended for an adult audience. They never mention his age as an issue.

Ender's Game and A Game of Thrones both have child POV characters, but neither of those manuscripts had to go through slush piles. And that was decades ago. And IIRC, neither started in the child's POV.

I don't think this is the only factor for the auto-rejections, but it seems to be a major one, especially in combination with another red flag item. I suspect those two factors combined are hitting the 'kill switch' in agents' minds ... only because I get that same bit of feedback from 100% of industry beta readers. "Are you aware that YA readers like to read up for their age?" "Do you realize that he's too young for the audience?"

If you're saying it's YA/adult crossover (which you should never say, btw. They want you to pick a market), then it probably is a roadblock. If you're just saying YA, it's also a roadblock. 12yo is MG age, or it can be an adult book.

This is helpful. Thanks!!! Note to self: Say it's adult, or say it's YA--not both. Can I say 'YA crossover'?

I would prefer to market it as adult, but honestly, I think it would appeal to teenagers as well. I've had really, really great reactions from teenage beta readers.

Jamesaritchie · Aug 6, 2014

The funny thing is, from my experience, a 12 year old simply will not work for the YA readership, but will work for an adult novel. This, I think, is as it should be. YA is a very specific genre, with specific needs and wants, and a specific age group that reads it. Anything is possible, but I really doubt you'll get any takers in the YA genre with such a protagonist.

I'd say forget all about the crossover idea. This usually doesn't work by intention, anyway. Write the novel for adults, market it for adults, and if it crosses over after being published, fine, great, but I wouldn't even mention it until then.

LJD · Aug 6, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
This is helpful. Thanks!!! Note to self: Say it's adult, or say it's YA--not both. Can I say 'YA crossover'?

I would prefer to market it as adult, but honestly, I think it would appeal to teenagers as well. I've had really, really great reactions from teenage beta readers.

To me, saying something is a crossover could sound like you're a bit...full of it (IMHO). Because the books we think of as crossovers are the big hits.

And teens read adult fiction too.

You might find this post interesting (former agent):
"But here's the problem with crossover novels: there's no crossover publisher, only children's publishers and adult publishers, and there's no crossover section of the bookstore, only the children's side and the adult side...All of this is a long way to say that I think you need to write and pitch your novel as one or the other."

mayqueen · Aug 6, 2014

It sounds like your novel isn't YA, based on the age of the protagonist and the multiple viewpoints including adults. Another reason to query it as adult is that your word count is on the high side for YA. Here, here, here, etc.

As for the other thing, I don't know. If you're not getting personalized feedback, you can't assume anything about why you're being rejected.

Hapax Legomenon · Aug 6, 2014

YA is less a demographic and more a particular type of novel. Teenagers read lots of adult novels. Market as adult.

cornflake · Aug 6, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
I've consistently had great reactions from beta readers, and auto-rejections from agents. One bit of feedback that I get from 100% of industry readers is: "Are you aware that your character is too young for YA/adult?"

'Normal' beta readers don't have the same expectations, and they seem to be reading it as a book intended for an adult audience. They never mention his age as an issue.

Ender's Game and A Game of Thrones both have child POV characters, but neither of those manuscripts had to go through slush piles. And that was decades ago. And IIRC, neither started in the child's POV.

I don't think this is the only factor for the auto-rejections, but it seems to be a major one, especially in combination with another red flag item. I suspect those two factors combined are hitting the 'kill switch' in agents' minds ... only because I get that same bit of feedback from 100% of industry beta readers. "Are you aware that YA readers like to read up for their age?" "Do you realize that he's too young for the audience?"

This is helpful. Thanks!!! Note to self: Say it's adult, or say it's YA--not both. Can I say 'YA crossover'?

I would prefer to market it as adult, but honestly, I think it would appeal to teenagers as well. I've had really, really great reactions from teenage beta readers.

As others have said, if you're not getting feedback, you've no idea what the problem is or why it's being rejected.

If you're getting no bites off the query at all - I'm inclined to say it's very likely the query has problems.

No requests off the query = look at the query.

Requests, then rejections = look at the ms.

jeffo20 · Aug 6, 2014

I agree with Cornflake, if all you're getting are auto-rejections, take another hard look at your query letter.

thisprovinciallife · Aug 6, 2014

I recently saw a successful query post from an author who signed with a well-respected agent - and his query had a line stating that he had "knowingly used several fantasy tropes" with the intention of then subverting them later (or something to that extent). Maybe something like that would work for you! Although, I am wary of lines like that - as it's very easy to end up sounding bragg-y.

quicklime · Aug 7, 2014

jeffo20 said:
I agree with Cornflake, if all you're getting are auto-rejections, take another hard look at your query letter.

Thirding......

Thedrellum · Aug 7, 2014

Toothpaste said:
Another voice jumping on the "either it's MG or adult, it can't be YA" bandwagon. There aren't tons of rules with YA but one of them is it has to have a teenage protagonist. This is why, for example, they have aged up the protagonist of THE GIVER in the movie so that it can be sold as a YA film not a MG.

Just wanted to jump in to say that this is not always the case. Rick Yancey's THE MONSTRUMOLOGIST has a twelve-year-old protagonist and that book is definitely YA.

As to the thread as a whole, I agree with pretty much what everyone else has said. Advice re: the query fourthed.

AbbyBabble · Aug 7, 2014

Agents don't offer feedback when they auto-reject. However, I've had a lot of feedback on the first three chapters from industry professionals. The age thing is consistently mentioned by them.

This 12-year-old character, Thomas, doesn't act like a child. He's more like an adult in a child's body. He absorbs lifetimes worth of memories, and he has super-fast processing speed. In chapters 1 & 2, he's at his most childlike; his knowledge grows quite a bit once he hooks up to the telepath network.

Yet his young age is integral to the plot. Here's why [spoilers]:

Thomas was never supposed to live to adulthood. That's why he invented his medicine, which is coveted by other telepaths with his mutations (the super-geniuses). Sure, I can change it to "super-geniuses die during their twenties" rather than "super-geniuses die during puberty." But I don't like giving the super-geniuses sex characteristics and introducing the element of sexual tension, no matter how small. Children are innocent, and the whole point of super-geniuses is that they're *not* innocent like other children. If I make Thomas and the Indigo Governess into teenagers, their fatalism and high ambitions might seem akin to mundane teenage angst. It will lose impact.

There would be other negative repercussions to making Thomas a teenager. Right now, he acts like an old man in the body of a child, which is a direct contrast to the character of Garrett, who acts like a child in the body of an old man. If Thomas is a teenager, I lose that contrast. There's at least two scenes where Thomas needs to be carried by an ummin (small alien). If he's the size of a teenager, that's implausible. And there are so many scenes where Thomas's appearance of being harmless and innocent plays into reader and character expectations. An underground civilization of runaway slaves treat Thomas like he's their devil, which looks appalling when he's actually a child. It will look less appalling if he's a sulky teenager. Towards the end of the series, Thomas becomes sort of a Torth anti-christ, massacring and enslaving trillions of Torth. That will have a lot more visual impact if he looks like an innocent child.

LJD · Aug 7, 2014

"industry professionals"=?

Literary agents? Assistants to literary agents? Editors for major publishing houses? People who work as "editors" but really don't have the experience to do so?

AbbyBabble · Aug 7, 2014

LJD said:
"industry professionals"=? Literary agents? Assistants to literary agents? Editors for major publishing houses? People who work as "editors" but really don't have the experience to do so?

Former assistant editors (at major publishers, such as Tor and Daw), and agented and published novelists.

Working literary agents and editors generally don't have time for beta reading. If you know one who's willing, please let me know.

12-year-old protag = deal breaker?

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