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mccardey

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I'm wondering if they really said "Dumb it down"? Because that's a bad way of looking at it - insulting to readers as well as to your book - and not the sort of comment I'd expect from a professional. I'm not surprised you find it hard to go back to loving a book you've had to "dumb down."

Perhaps that was more your interpretation of what they said? If it was, it might be worth while your going back and looking at what they really said, and finding a more positive way to interpret it?

It might have helped you to do the rewrite, if you'd called it dumbing down - I don't know. But if you convince yourself that this is the dumbed down version, you're not going to like it.

My 2c worth.
 
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Osulagh

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What did they say verbatim?

I ask because you might have interpreted it that way as in defense of your story.

Here's my thoughts:

You shouldn't have to "dumb down" anything because the mark of a great writer is when they are able to convey complex thoughts with great efficiency. Writing is communication, and the greatest goal of communication is being able to transfer one thought completely to the listener. In addition to that, the mark of a great storyteller is when they are able to hold the reader's attention through anything.

My guess would be is that perhaps your writing and storytelling wasn't up to par with what you were trying to convey. Perhaps you were writing a history textbook of your world (which can be common for epic fantasies) in a complicated manner and not grabbing your reader's attention, ergo the publishers asking you to alter it. However, I have not read you nor that story, so I wouldn't know.

I believe if the writing and storytelling is strong, most people shouldn't complain about anything. You shouldn't have to "dumb down" parts of your story if these are strong. So, my suggestion is to seek improvement in these fields so you can accomplish what you set out to write for most people.
 

mccardey

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Too smart is one thing, and attention spans absolutely have to be taken into account but I don't think dumbing down is an answer.

I think you need to put that sort of comment somewhere where it won't do any more harm, and think instead in terms of simplifying.

Good luck with it. I think it's appalling if they suggested you dumb down for YA. These may not be people you want to be working with, frankly...
 

Kronisk

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Zombie,

I know this is going to sound mean, but, if you are aiming your manuscript as "YA" when shopping it to publishers, why are you surprised when they tell you to dumb it down?

The "YA" I have encountered thus far has reminded me of this essay on the Jihad to destroy Barney (the main site is at this place now and I seriously wish more people would read it). In particular, this little quote:
In line with the idea that the children are taught to deny their basic differences, somehow all these kids on Barney, whose ages I
estimate at 8 - 16 (or maybe older, Lucy is pretty big), not to mention the grownups who show up on some episodes, pretend
that they are all the same ages as the kids watching the show (2 - 5?). All people, regardless of age, react to Barney and the
proposed activities in the same way -- that is, at the developmental level of a toddler.
That is YA in a nutshell to me. So whilst one of my least favourite phrases to hear is "dumb it down", I am not surprised that you have heard it.

For my part, the primary cast of my most recent writing project varies in age between 16 and 18, but there is no way I will ever call it YA to a potential agent, and I will tell any potential agent that calls it YA that I do not believe I can work with them. Especially because this cast interacts with other characters who range from being in their age group to being ~20,000 years old. They also find themselves in situations like staring down the barrel of a gun, kill or be killed (not in the lolly-water Hungry Games sense, either, but by people who see them as vermin), etc etc.

Now, having said all of that, have you considered taking out the version of the manuscript you made before trying to dumb it down for the publisher and trying to make a new version from there?

I will play Devil's Advocate here for a second. A publisher that is blown away by your manuscript and can see all sorts of wonderful things leaping out of it is either going to not tell you to dumb it down or tell you. The latter is, as mccardey put it, not someone you want to work with anyhow. But the thing is, you have to be absolutely certain the former kind of agent really does see brilliance leaping out of it, and that means making absolutely sure it is the best it can be. I recently went through this whole readjustment of self-assessment myself, realising my work had not been adequately edited and refined before self-publication. It hurt like hell to find out, but I am working on making the manuscript shine.

So in closing, I will ask you if you have shown your manuscript to other authors, beta readers, or maybe even professional editors? Because those are the opinions I think you should concern yourself with. But yeah... too smart for teens? That person would not last thirty seconds amongst the people I knew when I was fourteen years old. I miss them terribly lately. :/ Haha.
 

gettingby

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I ask you: At what point does the author have to think of the reader?
 

Kronisk

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I ask you: At what point does the author have to think of the reader?
When the author wants to sell their work? I mean, sure, it is really foul when someone says "this is too smart for young people" (which, to me, is no different than "too smart for girls" or "too smart for black people"). But at some point, the author has to think about who might identify with the story enough to want to own it.

I do this. There's a lot of flaky people who nearly meet the criteria for PTSD out there, I have found in day to day travelling. ;)
 

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I have to echo what everyone else has said: I doubt that a publisher would tell you to dumb your work down, or that it was "too smart" for YA. I wonder if you've misunderstood what they were telling you, or if you've misinterpreted it.

I thought it might be an issue with your writing style, and so I looked for any threads you might have started in SYW. There were none, but I did find this one in which you made similar points:

I was also told by editors and agents that my prose was beautiful, but "too smart" to for YA and probably wouldn't hold their attention spans because of that.

I suppose they were being too picky about things then by asking me to "dumb it down."

That thread was from February 2012. What have you written in the three years since you started that thread?

I am not sure that you're doing yourself any favours by continuing to work on these books, or by worrying what a few editors told you so long ago.

If I were you, I'd write something new. It will be better. The ways in which it fails will be different. They might be small enough not to get in the way of publication. But rewriting one book, or one series of books, for years at a time, is not going to get you published.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Never in my life have I heard an editor say "dumb it down". I can't imagine any legitimate publisher asking that this be done. I've never even heard one say "Dumb it down" when the story is for little children.

You don't sell anything in any genre by dumbing it down. I don't buy this for a second.
 

RN Hill

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I'm trying to imagine a novel - how it's written - where every agent you query says to "dumb it down." Unless you're writing in the vein of James Joyce . . .?

Teens know when you're being condescending, and they want smart, well-written novels. So I have to wonder if maybe it's your word choice, or something in your exposition - can you tell us how much of the novel you sent to them? You said requests, but were those for fulls or just chapters? And if you can post the rejection letters, maybe - just those snippets that talk about 'dumbing it down,' maybe we can get a better sense of what they meant by it.
 

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Seven years is too long to worry about one project. Everybody has manuscripts that they decide to trunk for whatever reason. I think you should just focus on a new project, concentrate on making it epic and see what all the professionals say :)
 

kwanzaabot

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Don't dumb it down.
Smart it up.

Take the original, smart version (or a rewritten version, if you don't have the original anymore), and market it to adults instead of teens.
 

Funaek

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Don't dumb it down.
Smart it up.

Take the original, smart version (or a rewritten version, if you don't have the original anymore), and market it to adults instead of teens.

I was wondering the same thing. Can you market it as for adults or do the MCs need to be a certain age for the story? I also find it crazy that they told you to dumb it down!
 

Lillith1991

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Don't dumb it down.
Smart it up.

Take the original, smart version (or a rewritten version, if you don't have the original anymore), and market it to adults instead of teens.

Umm. Why exactly would smarting it up make it for adults? If it's still from the POV of a teen, and deals with coming of age in some way among other things related to YA. Then smarting it up wouldn't really do anything, would it? It would still be a book for teens. And speaking as someone that actually read adult novels from a young age, both smart and dumb. I will say I've read some stupid books aimed at adults that my 7 year old neice Could tell you dont make sense.

But then, I'm doubting the OP is being truthful about what was said. Truthful about what it felt like was being said in their view? 100%. About what was actually said? Eh, not so much. I mean, it is pretty crappy behavior for a professional. Particularly crappy if they're continuing to be employed by an otherwise reputable agency/publisher, while still telling people something like this. You would think they'd gotten fired by now if that was the case.
 

mccardey

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It was unlucky for you to get even two dumb it down responses - as you can see, it wouldn't be acceptable today. But perhaps way back then, that was what all the cool kids were saying and it had a slightly less obnoxious meaning. But in any case, what I said before is what I'd still say. Put those words somewhere quiet and stop thinking about them. Simplify. Clarify? Sharpen, perhaps? Find nice ways to look at the positive steps you'll take next. That will help you love the book as much as you were loving it it before.

Also - tastes change. Seven years is a very long time. You might well find you're hitting a prime target now.

Good luck with it!
 

Lillith1991

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I think I need to clarify. It wasn't EVERY one I submitted. Lots just rejected from the query, several others sent form letters after a few sample pages/chapters were sent. I'd say about 20 (a mixture of both agents and editors) actually took partial or full samples. I don't remember the exact number because I submitted it so many years ago, but around that number.

Most of them would not go into further details about what they meant by those statements because it would take up too much of their time. I did get two that outright said, "dumb it down" after I asked.

I don't have those emails anymore, it was seven years ago or I would share them. And yes "too smart" was used by a handful of other ones. I wasn't misinterpreting or making this up. I find it somewhat hurtful for people to claim that about me. I didn't alter the words that were said in the emails. I wish I could show you as proof. :( But it was a long time ago.

I do, however, have a review that a professional editor did of my book, which I'd paid for to find out why, way back then. I still have it. I was told my prose matched that of writers from the Victorian era, so I am guessing that was it. My favorite novels are from that time. I like that style better than modern.

Also I haven't been writing this book for the last seven years. I haven't even touched it, except to make outlines last year. Nothing else because I got anxiety attacks over it and I was also dealing with a rough break up.

Anyway, I didn't come on here for an argument or anything about what was said when I originally told the back story. I simply wanted tips to rekindle my love for this book and to get past the anxiety. That was my original question. :( I just wanted help with motivation.

EDIT: Sorry, when I wrote the original post I had a fever and a bad cold. I think it messed up my explanations.

Awe. I hope I didn't make you feel badly. I really didn't want to. Sometimes we read comments on our stories, whether novels or something shorter and react badly to what was said. I though that it may have been the case since I find it bizzare even two people found such behavior professional. I didn't mean to implying you were lying or anything of the sort.

If it makes you feel better, I love the style of Victorian writing. There's a charm that modern writing doesn't have.
 
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