Help me with my pitbull prejudice, please

Roxxsmom

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I'm seeing red flags all over this dog's behavior, pit bull or not. I'm also seeing bigger red flags over the behavior of the owners, who sound uninterested in training or controlling the animal, and who don't seem to be taking these issues seriously. (How did they get their hands on a rescue? Was this a legitimate group? Something smells iffy, here...)

If I were you, I'd trust my instincts, here. Caution is advised. Possibly pepper spray, and a speed-dial on animal control.

This. Something sounds off about this dog's behavior, and regardless of his breed, I'd be worried. And yes, the owners' unwillingness to confine, train or control him is a big issue too.

Bully breeds aren't always, or even usually, aggressive or bad dogs. But they're heavy and muscular enough that they can be a particular problem when they aren't socialized or trained properly. And pit bulls (like terriers in general) have been bred for predatory aggression. It's meant to be directed at other animals instead of humans, but once in a while a human (most commonly small children) can trigger something called predatory drift. It can happen with other types of dog too (all dogs are predators, after all, though some have been intentionally bred to inhibit part of the eye, stalk, chase, bite, kill sequence), but with such large, strong animals, ones that are bred to latch on and keep attacking once they start, it is particularly deadly.
 
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cornflake

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A rescued male pit bull recently moved into my neighborhood. It has grown increasingly aggressive toward my dog over the past few months, lunging and staring at my dog like it is a steak dinner. The owner willingly moves to the side of the road or trails to let others pass, but he can barely control the animal when it lunges.

My dog is well socialized, well trained, and does not bark. Like many other dog walkers in the area, I have changed walking routes because it's pretty clear the pit bull is going to snap one of these days.

I know people say pit bulls can be good family pets, but I don't want my dog to be the victim that proves them wrong.

If your dog, or some other poor dog were to be attacked by that dog, it wouldn't prove wrong that pits can be good family pets.

Millions are. They can be raised well, live in loving homes and never harm anyone or anything. They can be raised in terrible places, be adopted into good homes and never harm anyone or anything again. They can be raised in good homes or bad and go bonkers and cause harm. Same as other breeds of dog and other animals.

Pits are involved in more incidences and can cause a lot of damage if they do attack, but it doesn't mean there aren't lots that are good, loving dogs.
 

robjvargas

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Pits are involved in more incidences and can cause a lot of damage if they do attack, but it doesn't mean there aren't lots that are good, loving dogs.

I'm going to advise that we not debate the merits or dangers of pit bulls in general. Not in this thread. That's not a demand. I just think we've settled that the breed is not really at issue here. I have two reasons for this opinion, although they're tied closely together.

First of all, I don't think Perks is displaying any pit bull prejudice here. She's concerned by a dog's behavior. It might be fair to suggest that the possible consequences that Perks envisions are being influenced by the breed of the dog, but that leads me to point number two:

The behaviors this dog is exhibiting are troubling no matter the breed of the dog. I think we've pretty much all agreed that the dog's behavior merits concern, and I haven't seen anyone counter the thought that the behavior is concerning whether or not the dog is a pit bull.

I think the pit bull discussion is a worthy discussion. I hope you don't see me saying it isn't. It just seems that in this context, the actual breed of the dog, our comments aren't affected.
 

RackinRocky

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If this dog growled at your kid, something needs to be done NOW, before that dog ever gets near your kid again. If a bully breed decides to attack, like others have said, it's IMPOSSIBLE to get him to let go. You have to wait until he re-grips, then your timing has to be impeccable, in order to yank him back before he takes a hold again.

Very few bully breeds are people aggressive, but if another dog happens to set one off, they will completely disregard any kind of discipline, even extremely painful.

I have an American Bulldog, which is a bully breed, distantly related to Pits. I've never in my life (and I was a vet tech for 12 years) have seen the kind of aggression he is capable of. Had him since he was 8 weeks old, and suddenly, at 8 months of age, he attacked another of our dogs. He'd been trained by me, and he learned amazingly fast, and we had never spoiled him. We were strict, yet fair. But he attacked just the same, and for no apparent reason.

I witnessed it, and the other dog had only passed by him, about 2 feet away. My husband and I could not get him to let go. He was shaking his head back and forth, like they do. No amount of hitting, screaming at him, or even lashes of a leather leash that left welts made any difference. I got a length of hose (about a foot long) and hit him across the bridge of the nose AS HARD AS I COULD, multiple times, and it made no difference. I couldn't even choke him down.

This dog is a sweetheart, and loves us to death. But when this happens, he completely zones out. It's as if he can't even see or hear us. All he thinks is "kill." This dog was never abused, so it has to be in his bloodline--it's hereditary. The worst thing about it is, if you got him off another dog, you have to be extremely cautious, or he will go after YOU. I hope I haven't scared you to death, but you do need to realize the seriousness of this situation. If I had a bully breed growl at my kid, immediate action would be taken. I'd have animal control take the animal away, or enforce him being confined where there is no way he could escape. A growl is only a very SMALL step away from an attack.
 

Okelly65

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Ive had a pit for nine years now. She sleeps with cats, loves people and has no problem with other animals, I have a couple of other dogs as well. I know people love to claim its in the blood line but my experience has been more pits are good dogs than are bad.

With all that said, I dont care what breed of dog it may be, if it seems aggressive to your child or others regardless of how attached you may be you need to find another home for it.
 

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Perks hasn't been back for an update in a while...I hope everything has been okay for her and her kids.
 

Perks

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I'm here! It's been really busy and my AW time has been spotty. Have casually chatted to the owner of the dog and the dog's been penned for the last two lessons. I haven't seen Sirra lately though and I'm wondering if he's gone. I'll ask and update.

In a way, it worries me, because it made me wonder if she wasn't having borderline doubts about the dog anyway.
 

RCtheBanditQueen

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It definitely sounds like a sticky situation. :( But I am glad to hear that you all are safe!
 

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The owner of the pit bull I was having problems with is now using a head halter on the dog. Does anyone know if this would stop the pit bull if it decided to attack?
 

CrastersBabies

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I don't think you are being prejudiced. Any dog (no matter the breed) displaying that kind of behavior would worry me. I hope things have turned out for the best. I've known many pit bulls who are extremely sweet and caring.

My daughter has a fear of dogs because of an incident with a Rottweiler mix that attacked her because she was holding a plushie. I nearly had a heart attack, but the owners got the animal away from her quickly. I don't blame the dog, but the owners. Multiple times, the dog growled and tried to jump up on me and others. We have never been back to that house.

I wish I knew of a way to help her not be afraid of dogs. We have a dog that she loves and that is very sweet and good to her, but other dogs cause her great distress. I can usually tell (as a mom) when a dog is showing reg flags and when she is overreacting. It sounds like you are listening to your gut in a good way.
 
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LittlePinto

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The owner of the pit bull I was having problems with is now using a head halter on the dog. Does anyone know if this would stop the pit bull if it decided to attack?

It is unlikely. Some dogs can slip out of the head halters and others just don't care if someone is pulling on their heads, they'll go after what they want and drag their handlers along for the ride (and pits are very strong dogs). I've also heard of them breaking if the dog pulls too hard.
 

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Put bulls are some of the friendliest, sweetest, greatest dogs imaginable.

The problem is they are also incredibly powerful. When the (far more likely to bite) cocker spaniel latches onto someone it's a painful bite. When a pit bull does the same it can be a tragedy.

Pit bulls were bred to fight. How can you say they are some of the friendliest, sweetest, greatest dogs imaginable? Only because many pit bulls with a good owner can be very lovable dogs and never hurt a fly does not mean that the breed in general can be accurately described that way.

Regarding your statement about cocker spaniels being far more likely to bite, what do you base that on?

There's a reason why dogs bred for hunting are used for hunting. There's a reason why dogs bred for sledding are used for sledding. Is there a reason why dogs bred for fighting should be used as family dogs?
 

Lady MacBeth

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Pit bulls were bred to fight. How can you say they are some of the friendliest, sweetest, greatest dogs imaginable? Only because many pit bulls with a good owner can be very lovable dogs and never hurt a fly does not mean that the breed in general can be accurately described that way.

Regarding your statement about cocker spaniels being far more likely to bite, what do you base that on?

There's a reason why dogs bred for hunting are used for hunting. There's a reason why dogs bred for sledding are used for sledding. Is there a reason why dogs bred for fighting should be used as family dogs?


Good points.
 

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In the UK, many more people are injured each year by Labradors and Golden Retrievers (which are generally considered to be loveable family dogs) than by the bull terrier types which are covered by the Dangerous Dogs Act.

Not that that's on-topic, but it's worth bearing in mind.
 

Tazlima

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Regarding your statement about cocker spaniels being far more likely to bite, what do you base that on?

Cocker spaniels are known for biting thanks to their explosion in popularity caused by the film "Lady and the Tramp." They were bred by people looking to make a buck with no regard for their health or temperament. At most these breeders bred them for their looks. The result was a LOT of cocker spaniels that had downright nasty personalities (not to mention a slew of congenital health issues). That burst of popularity did severe and lasting damage to the breed.

The same thing happens to every breed that suddenly becomes popular: 101 Dalmations, The Brussels Griffon in "As Good as it Gets," the Jack Russell terrier in "Frasier." Suddenly everyone wants one and there are unscrupulous people out there more than willing to crank out as many as possible regardless of the consequences.


There's a reason why dogs bred for hunting are used for hunting. There's a reason why dogs bred for sledding are used for sledding. Is there a reason why dogs bred for fighting should be used as family dogs?

Dogs bred for hunting are used as family dogs.
They're bred to have a strong prey drive. Children are small and make high-pitched noises that are appealing to predators. Therefore hunting dogs can make for dangerous pets. Even pointers, who are supposed to indicate the prey rather than attack, will break point and charge if not carefully trained. Retrievers and spaniels, which are bred to fetch prey that a human has killed rather than kill it themselves, don't always have the soft mouth and self-control that the "breed ideal" would exhibit.


Dogs bred for sledding are used as family dogs.
They're bred to pull, which can make them extremely difficult to leash train. I know a woman who was walking her dog in the park when it decided to take off running. It jerked her off her feet and she broke her arm and a couple of ribs. Sled dog breeds also tend to be unpredictable.

Dogs bred for herding are used as family dogs.
They have a tendency to try and "herd" their family members, especially children, which can be problematic as one of their instinctive herding tools is nipping whatever needs to be herded.

Dogs bred for fighting are used as family dogs.
Pit fighting dogs were bred to attack other dogs, not humans. Just as fox hounds were bred to attack foxes and not humans. Just as coon hounds were bred to attack raccoons and not humans. If you're going to stigmatize one, then the others should be as well.

I can't think of a single dog breed that was originally developed specifically for companionship. Even lap dogs were bred primarily as flea magnets (can't have the royalty getting itchy). Whenever a dog, an energetic and intelligent predator, is given the primary job of "household pet" each breed will have its own unique challenges to overcome. Getting a mixed-breed won't solve that problem either. They'll just have some combination of the characteristics of the parents.

If every breed developed for another job were forbidden from being kept as a pet, we wouldn't have pet dogs at all.
 
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DeleyanLee

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FWIW, the bully breeds were NOT breed to attack other dogs. They were originally bred to fight bulls for people's entertainment. But that became distasteful to the culture, so they were bred back to be not so aggressive to big beasts.

In the 1800's and early 1900's, the Stafford terriers (now known as pit bulls) were considered the "nanny dogs" because they were sweet, loving and guarded children against strangers extremely well.

Somewhen in the 1900's, people began breeding them again to be aggressive to other dogs and fighting them. (Probably because other means of fighting animals had become unpopular with their culture again, such as fighting roosters.) This is when they got the nickname of "pit bulls" and the reputation the breed now suffers from.

The problem isn't with the dog. It's with the people who breed and train them. With the right training and knowledgeable owners, the bully breeds are completely safe as family pets, but this is true of any pet.
 

Tazlima

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FWIW, the bully breeds were NOT breed to attack other dogs. They were originally bred to fight bulls for people's entertainment. But that became distasteful to the culture, so they were bred back to be not so aggressive to big beasts.

In the 1800's and early 1900's, the Stafford terriers (now known as pit bulls) were considered the "nanny dogs" because they were sweet, loving and guarded children against strangers extremely well.

Somewhen in the 1900's, people began breeding them again to be aggressive to other dogs and fighting them. (Probably because other means of fighting animals had become unpopular with their culture again, such as fighting roosters.) This is when they got the nickname of "pit bulls" and the reputation the breed now suffers from.

The problem isn't with the dog. It's with the people who breed and train them. With the right training and knowledgeable owners, the bully breeds are completely safe as family pets, but this is true of any pet.

Thank you for mentioning this.

My post referenced the more recent breeding goals of the 20th century as that is the function which pit bull naysayers have a problem with, but this is all absolutely correct.

I'll add that the dog in the Little Rascals was a pit bull. They weren't always the villians of the canine world.
 

veinglory

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Pit bulls were bred to fight. How can you say they are some of the friendliest, sweetest, greatest dogs imaginable?

As already suggested, if you want to discuss that issue I would suggest starting a new threat. Then I can show you all the data you would like on the correlation between breed and aggression.
 

Amadan

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In the 1800's and early 1900's, the Stafford terriers (now known as pit bulls) were considered the "nanny dogs" because they were sweet, loving and guarded children against strangers extremely well.


Sorry, but that's been debunked.

(Yes, the link is to a site that has an obvious anti-pit bull bias, but the evidence seems pretty solid that the pit bull as "nanny dog" is a bit of modern PR.)
 

Brightdreamer

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I'm here! It's been really busy and my AW time has been spotty. Have casually chatted to the owner of the dog and the dog's been penned for the last two lessons. I haven't seen Sirra lately though and I'm wondering if he's gone. I'll ask and update.

In a way, it worries me, because it made me wonder if she wasn't having borderline doubts about the dog anyway.

I have a bad feeling that Something Happened, something bad enough for these people to finally take notice, and the dog may have "disappeared" - likely pawned off on another owner. Odds are they won't talk about it, either, especially as you had expressed concerns that they denied. They won't want to admit you (and others who were concerned) were right.

Had something similar happen several years back with a friend of my Mom's. The woman got a shepherd breed - the name escapes me, but it wasn't a German - that had been "specially trained" (theoretically Shutzhund training, though we have our doubts.) This woman had a son, about 10-11 years old, and Mom was somewhat concerned about this... especially when she heard that part of the "training" required the woman to stand over this dog whenever it ate. Literally stand over it. Um, red flag, here. Mom's been around dogs her whole life. This set off her inner alarm bells something fierce. The woman brushed it off - Mom was being an alarmist. This was a good dog. It was specially trained.

Then one day, when the woman was taking a nap, her son walked into the kitchen. And the dog - this wonderful, specially-trained dog - went straight for the throat.

The kid lived - scarred but alive. And the dog was returned to the breeder. (She did not take it to the vet herself. She took the people's word that it would be disposed of.) The woman stopped talking to Mom shortly after that.

And we've always had an uneasy feeling that the kind of breeder who would "train" a dog like that and sell it to a house with a kid did not destroy it, but sent it elsewhere...
 

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The comment about if dogs are trained properly, they will not attack, is most certainly not true. As I said, I was a vet tech for 12 years for a very busy practice, and we saw literally hundreds of dogs a week, plus all the dogs who showed up for our vaccination clinic on the weekends. We learned quickly that it makes no difference how the dog is trained, if it already has the aggressive genes. It's the breeders' faults, number one! Any dog who shows aggression should be taken out of the breeding program, and this problem would stop. Yes, Pits are often aggressive with livestock and other dogs, but yes... the majority of them are sweethearts toward humans. Pits never gave us trouble at work--in fact they are very stoic. And yes, it WAS the Cockers we really had to watch. I'd say well over 75% of the Cockers we saw were nasty. And yes, it was due to poor breeding because people wanted to make a buck, and ignored bad temperaments. Lhasa Apsos are another example. I've seen few that were not nasty. Chows, almost without exception, are nasty. I remember only ONE in 12 years that was a nice dog. All due to shady breeders who want a certain color, or coat and to hell with disposition.