Rogue Phoenix Press

Crack Of Dawn

I have worked with Rogue Phonex Press for several years now and have nothing but good things to say about them. I have four books published for ebooks by them at the present and a fifth coming out this November. Working with Arlo their edtor and Gennee the graphic designer have been a very positive experance. It is worth the two year contract I have wth them to get the services they provide. Even though some of my contracts are over I stll plan to let Rogue handle my work. They are a growing ebook publisher and I feel will be a big part in ebooks future.

Call me crazy but I still like working with Rogue, my 11th book is coming out shortly with them and I'm still earning royalties. I didn't have to buy any of my books if I didn't want to. I have four other publishers and I just signed a contract for book number 23. You don't have to do the print version if you chose not to.

Their website is difficult to read, with oddly spaced/overlapping text (which may, of course, be a browser issue) and typos/misspellings, and has no excerpts I could find.

A look at a random selection of their titles on Amazon (I had to use Amazon's Search function, because there are no links on their site) revealed some...interesting editing and language usage in both blurbs and the books themselves, and some odd text formatting in the previews. (There were also a couple that did not have those errors.)

Stacia Kane said:

Their website is difficult to read, with oddly spaced/overlapping text (which may, of course, be a browser issue) and typos/misspellings, and has no excerpts I could find.

A look at a random selection of their titles on Amazon (I had to use Amazon's Search function, because there are no links on their site) revealed some...interesting editing and language usage in both blurbs and the books themselves, and some odd text formatting in the previews. (There were also a couple that did not have those errors.)

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The site made me want to reach for the eye bleach, but I wasn't sure if it was just the web design snob in me so I didn't post. Good to know I'm not crazy, though.

In the age of the CMS and thousands upon thousands of nice looking free themes, there is no excuse for a website--especially a professional one trying to sell me things--to look like that.

Sample from a blurb :

As the passion starts to sizzle evil forces threaten to tear them apart, can Drystan hold onto the woman not only he needs but his people?

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It's nice if current Rogue Phoenix authors are happy with their experience and feel positive about their publisher... but this is poor sentence construction. I even found a blurb where the title of the book is misspelled ("Keepint Katie").

Well, the passion will sizzle the evil forces, so that takes care of one major plot complication.

Wrong format again!

Wait, so is this a vanity press or not? I'm confused.

Samsonet said:

Wait, so is this a vanity press or not? I'm confused.

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From the first page of this thread, it looks as though they charged a setup fee. If that's still the case, this is a vanity press.

Queen of Swords said:

From the first page of this thread, it looks as though they charged a setup fee. If that's still the case, this is a vanity press.

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That's what it sounded like, but I wasn't sure. Thanks

I have a novella out with Rogue Phoenix Press. I was never charged for anything in any way; communication with cover artist, editor, chief editor, was and is prompt and courteous and accommodating. When, for example, I asked for price changes and free download days and Kindle Select participation and stuff, the answer was an instant "say when", not a confused explanation of how all this is very difficult or even impossible, as with some other publishers of mine.

The editing is, at times, wobbly, but unobtrusive, unlike say Damnation Books, where the editing was as wobbly, but very, very...obtrusive.

What can I say? If you write and edit at a stellar level--you'll be working with mid-upper level publishers and/or agents. If you're still learning how to keep a novel plot from unraveling and have to toss a coin to see where the comma will go or which tense is best suited for the sentence--overworked small epublisher editors will not save your hide.

If I knew in the first half of 2012 what I know in the second half of 2013, the editing of Brain Storm would have gone infinitely smoother. Maybe some day I'll still go over it and ask for the book file to be updated. Maybe I'll just wait for the rights to revert. Maybe like Robert McCammon and Dean Koontz, ten years from now I'll pretend my first books never happened, haha.

Bottom line: when I was just starting out, and looking around for someone to publish my first attempts to come to grips with the novel, novella, and novelette forms, Rogue Phoenix Press were one of the most efficient and polite small epublishers who worked with me. With seven such contracts under my belt in the last year, I think I am something of an expert in today's small epublisher field.

I see Rogue Phoenix even have Amazon bestsellers now--or at least "stable good-sellers,"--good for them! I hope this is just the start. And maybe next year, or even this year, the editing process is much smoother already, and who knows, perhaps a year or two from now Rogue Phoenix will begin a decisive ascent from 'small epub' to 'mid-level epub' level. Maybe this ascent is happening as I write this. Some small epublishers just sort of exist for a while, and then suddenly explode over the course of a few months and become a coveted goal for unagented authors (Entangled). Others vegetate on one level forever (as Zumaya, MuseitUp appear to). A third type starts well, and then stagnation sets in (as Musa appears to, hopefully not). A fourth type generates both high and low sales, allegations and praise in equal measure (Mundania).

But yeah, the website...the website... Something needs to be done about the website.

dondomat, I checked out your novella and... yes, the editing needs serious work. I'm not saying this to single out your novella, but if this is a typical example of what Rogue Phoenix puts out, no matter how polite and accommodating they are, I wouldn't recommend them.

Compare to World Castle, Eternal, Damnation, Solstice; I think you'll find that this is the typical level just below Samhain/Bloodbound. To have better editing, you gotta be a better writer. If you're a better writer - bigger publishers take you on first time you ask. Editing jumps a level. Circle of life.

My first books were published in the following order:
1.Autumn Magic December 20, 2011
2.Bad Ass Bible - April 28, 2012
3.Shudder - June 1, 2012
4.Planetfall on Albaid - July 1st, 2012
5.Brain Storm- September 19, 2012
6.[FONT=&quot]Sound of Distant Oceans November 7, 2012

While neither of them got a perfect edit, working with six separate editors following six separate house rules taught me a ton, directly and indirectly. As did all other dimensions of the publishing thing. I now recommend this to all starting writers--publish your first novels and novellas under pen names with a gaggle of small epublishers, and this will be worth the equivalent of years of silent work on your desk. Then you'll be ready to move up the ladder.

If you 'make it' fast enough, your older stuff will start selling better retroactively, and if you then update the old books with new and improved edits, incorporating your new level, everyone wins.

Or, you can just wait until the rights of the first books revert back to you, and then you can pretend they never existed. Mine will start reverting 2014 and 2016. We'll see.
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Their website looks like it's stuck in the 1990s.

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but I'm going to be blunt.

Why do those early, learning novels have to be published at all? Dondomat, it seems that your plan is to work up--publish early works that are weaker at these publishers, then move up to bigger ones.

I see a lot of problems with that, though. First of all, something like this could shoot you in the foot in terms of readers. Let's say a reader found a book of yours that has weak editing and writing. They are likely to read it, dislike it, and at worst decide not to read anything you've written again. If you get published at a bigger house and have a few weak books out on the market, that's what readers will find if they go to buy your other books, and again they're likely to not be happy with what they buy and cross you off their list.

Readers don't read a book and say, "Well, this was probably just their learning book, so it's okay that it has problems." We expect a certain level of quality in a book we spend money on, and if that professionalism is lax, it doesn't reflect well on the author.

A bigger issue is that publishers usually check sales of previous books when deciding whether or not to buy yours. That means weak sales might be a sign of your books not being able to catch on, and they might decide not to take you.

If you go with a publisher who produces shoddy covers and provides shoddy editing, you're shooting yourself in the foot in terms of sales. People won't like the book and pass it on by word of mouth, and readers will pass over it because it isn't up to professional standards.

Those weak sales could mean that you have a harder time finding a place for books later on, even if those books are much better than your learning books.

Finally, publishers who don't provide good art and editing and are generally rather amateur themselves don't know what they're doing and don't know the industry. You're more likely to get stuck in a bad contract or see them go under and take your books with them. I'm also not sure that such publishers would be considered a writing credit. If they are willing to accept works that you admit are not very good, they aren't going to be impressive to agents and editors at bigger houses.

I think the fact that you can say they accept books that you know are sub-par shows that they aren't a publisher that's worth working with. If your book isn't up to higher standards required, then put it in a drawer and work on the next one until you reach one that is.

I think there are too many drawbacks to going with a publisher like this, and I just don't want to see writers doing something that could hurt them further down the line.

kaitie said:

If they are willing to accept works that you admit are not very good, they aren't going to be impressive to agents and editors at bigger houses.

I think the fact that you can say they accept books that you know are sub-par shows that they aren't a publisher that's worth working with. If your book isn't up to higher standards required, then put it in a drawer and work on the next one until you reach one that is.

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Now, now, who said anything about sub-par books? I stand behind every novel, novella, novelette, short story, and flash story I've ever published. Everything I wrote in 2010, 2011, and 2012 is much weaker then my level in 2013, which is probably clumsy crap compared to my 2014 level, knock on wood, but I love all my early stuff. It's good stuff. Could be better, but good.

Sentence structure and punctuation issues--yes--wobbly editing--yes--but it's still good, in my opinion. I don't write bad stuff. If I start detecting false notes, I abandon the project.

Not good enough to grab an agent or a big publisher, but good enough for me to stand by it. I focused on it, I lived it, I agonized over it, it's not sub-par. It's just a bit shoddy Nothing two days of quality editing wouldn't cure.

Sure, I mentioned the possibility of pretending later on the early books never happened, but that's more insecure clowning around than anything. Sorry about that.

...True about the word of mouth and publishers preferring people with well-selling track records; hence the pen-names I mentioned. Let me mention them again: pen-names. At some point you can consolidate all your work under one name, or not. Many authors choose the former, many authors --the latter.

I still think there's no substitute for seeing the industry (and the craft) work from the inside, even if it's from the lower, or next-to-lower level. It gives valuable motivation, and almost valid reality-feedback. Some people can take years of toil without a single attaboy from the industry itself. I can't. I need people to tell me, starting from year one, preferably, or year two, as was the case, a) 'this is good stuff, but not for us. Please try again'; and much more importantly, b) 'this is good stuff. We'll take it and publish it and we'll provide almost professional cover design, something not unlike editing, and a pretense of marketing.'

This does work wonders for someone of my temperament. Without that I'm sunk, and can't work up the motivation to continue working on my craft and raising my level. And I believe I'm not alone in that.

...Having one's book go down with a small epublisher as it suddenly disintegrates is a real risk (albeit not limited only to them, as shown by a few respectable mid-level implosions of the last years), good point, but most of the people I work with have short contract terms in the 2-5 years range, and have bankruptcy clauses and stuff...

Bottom line: Rogue Phoenix Press believed in me during a vital period of self-doubt; they infused me with renewed enthusiasm; they were fast, polite, accommodating, and true to their word; I can only hope that in the near future they will minimize their weaknesses and maximize their strengths and become a universally respected small or mid-level publisher, and that my book with them contributes to that in one way or another. Probably another.

I'm not saying that your books are bad. I'm saying that you stated that these are publishers to go to if your writing isn't good enough to be picked up by the better publishers. Those books then don't receive proper editing and what not, and are weaker than those published by better publishers. That's what I mean. You use the word "shoddy," and I honestly get it. I have a book like that on my own hard drive. I love it, it has lots of good points, but it also has a lot of problems. For a professional book being sold to a major publisher, "shoddy" doesn't cut it. They need to be damned near perfect. Everything else in the learning curve is practice, imo.

I'm not trying to insult you or your writing. I haven't read any of your books. The point I'm just trying to make is that if you feel something isn't well-written enough to attract the attention of one of the better publishers, I don't think it is the best option to go with a publisher that can't produce a good product, for the reasons stated.

I am just pointing out some of the drawbacks of that logic because other people come to this thread to see if this is a publisher worth using or not. It's important that those people see positives and negatives. Yes, they might be willing to take a book that won't be accepted by the more well-established publishers, but there are negatives to that as well that must be considered to make an informed decision.

ETA: Regarding pen names, I do believe that can help in terms of attracting readers. I'm not denying that. However, generally publishers are looking at records, and it's (in my understanding) unusual for an author to submit to a publisher under a pen name. Publishers are usually able to check sales. I have heard of one case of an author who sold poorly and couldn't get her next book sold, so her agent submitted under a pen name and she was immediately snatched up, however this was unusual and possibly even damaging to the trust in the relationship.

I'm fairly certain that agents and publishers generally want to know about books that have been already published.

kaitie said:

I am just pointing out some of the drawbacks of that logic because other people come to this thread to see if this is a publisher worth using or not. It's important that those people see positives and negatives. Yes, they might be willing to take a book that won't be accepted by the more well-established publishers, but there are negatives to that as well that must be considered to make an informed decision.

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Absolutely. In no way is Rogue Phoenix Press, or any small epress that I know of, the way to stardom or even a stable paycheck, unless one is a porn whiz. One does not have a book picked up by a small epublisher and feel 'I've made it'. One has to sign a big publisher multi-book contract with many many figures in the advance section, to be able to say it. *Sometimes not even then, see Harry Conolly/David Wingrove examples below.

Or to be a self-pub whiz of the million-selling type.

One does not have a book picked up a by small epublisher and feel 'I am now a pro'. One has to sell a string of somethings at least to people the rang of Darkfuse, Journalstone, and now Crossed Genres too, or, if non-advance payers, then the top of those - Samhain, Carina - in order to be able with all honesty to say that one is perhaps becoming a pro.

My point was, attention whoring aside, that in my experience Rogue Phoenix Press never tried to scam me, never even tried to ignore any of my requests or be slow in communication, but instead behaved like a perfect little epress of their level. The level of 'not being a star', and of 'not really being an industry pro either', but the level of 'hit-and-miss-yet-honest' publishing.

There is no industry in existence that rewards excellence a 100% of the time. There is no manager school in existence that teachers managers how to make the right choice and recognize the future trend a 100% of the time. This is why not every song ever recorded and distributed is a hit, and not every genre book published by the big six is a hit, and not every summer movie invested in by Hollywood studios is a hit.

Everyone is hit-and-miss on a certain level. The higher level people have better polished 'successes' and 'failures', the lower level people--shoddily packaged 'successes' and 'failures'.

We all know music bands who started with tiny short-lived labels and badly recorded music played with cheap instruments and more gusto than technique. Thank you, tiny short-lived labels. Some of those bands grew into mainstream legends, others into minor sub-genre legends, and a third type forever remained on the neighborhood-jamming stoners level. Some of the tiny labels existed for a year, others grew into multinational money-machines. (And then the Internet came, but that's another story.)

Popular trends also change. A magnificent cool jazz album recorded in 1962 will take the world by storm. An even more magnificent jazz album by the same people, recorded in 1967, will be ignored, because the public's fickle tastes have shifted to a rock-funk trend. Sometimes, even when the industry recognizes and rewards excellence, the public itself does not; not even because the product is not objectively excellent, but because suddenly no one cares. Case in point - Harry Conolly's kick-ass Twenty Palaces "Jim Butcher meets Dashiel Hammett" series, or David Wingrove's bombastic Chung Kuo "Game of Thrones in the China-dominated cloned-assasin future, written a decade before Martin even began his first outline of political intrigue" series. Conolly and Wingrove started strong, and then the market changed and they got the ax, although the quality of their products was only getting better and better. Not to mention various objectively awesome horror masters like Graham Masterton, Shaun Hutson, Robert McCammon, Ramsey Campbell, and even the mighty Peter Straub, who all peaked very early, when the horror genre was peaking as well, and later, as they got better and better, their sales got tinier and tinier. Good thing Straub has a friend called Stephen King, with whom he collaborates periodically and then gets better paychecks.

You may be awesome, but not be recognized as such by the industry giants. You may be awesome, and be recognized as such by the industry giants, and still be ignored by the public. You may suck, but suddenly become a smash hit due to disturbances in the force zeitgeist.

I suggest one thinks of Rogue Phoenix Press not as a huge label which will make one a star with jet flights from packed stadium to packed stadium, but as of that provincial little label organized by three stoners and their dad in south Norway, who are willing to distribute one's Indonesian disco-death metal demo even though Sony Music never replied to one's enthusiastic query. Or, one can stow the demo away into a drawer and continue working until one is ready to record a hit album, if the time ever comes. Or, perhaps remaining with this label forever and recording a new album twice a year for the limited underground fan-base is all one wants and needs. Every city has jazz, blues, and heavy metal enthusiasts who continue perfecting their strand of the craft, recording almost professional albums from time to time, refusing to try and become commercially successful, instead aiming to please themselves and the 200 other people who care about such things. Depends on temperament, I guess.

Anyway, I have things to finish writing this week, and writing sprawling replies in this thread is a frighteningly satisfying way to procrastinate, and I really must stop. I'll revisit this thread in like September, or something I get sucked in too easily, especially when there's stuff to be done...

Rogue Phoenix is not a vanity

Hello. I have followed the discussion here regarding Rogue Phoenix Press with great interest. I just signed a contract with them after thoroughly researching them. I asked a multi-published friend, and a contract attorney, to review my contract before I signed it and both assured me that they are a straight-up ebook publisher. They have a POD publisher (Pawprints) that does hard copy. This is at no cost to me. The contract reads: 26. Rogue Phoenix Press is mainly an ebook Publisher. As a service to our Authors we offer an option for a paperback version as Print On Demand (POD) books. We have a contractual agreement with Pawprints POD to print all contracted titles should the Author choose this option on the signature page of this contract. There are no fees for the author for the Print On Demand option.

The realities of the publishing world are that the author is responsible for publicizing the book. This is true with the big publishers as well as with the small ones. It's my job. My novel will be on the Rogue Phoenix site, on Amazon Kindle, All Romance, Barnes and Noble Nook, Google Play and Smashwords [who also distribute to Apple, Kobo, Sony, Diesel, Page Foundry, Baker and Taylor Blio, Library Direct, Baker-Taylor Axis360, Flipkart, Oyster and Scribd]. I will hire a publicist, set up a web site, and do all I can to get the novel "out there." Anyone who sits back an waits for poeople to gravitate to a seller's web site is going to suffer. I also will get my novel entered in as many competitions for published novels as possible. I'm even considering wrapping my car in the novel's cover, with the url to my website displayed. An author has to be pro-active to get results.

Again, I can't speak to the experience of others, but the contract I signed with Rogue Phoenix is not a vanity or self-published contract. If you have further questions, feel free to email me at [email protected]. I'd be happy to discuss any aspect of publishing with anyone.

Christopher T. said:

The realities of the publishing world are that the author is responsible for publicizing the book. This is true with the big publishers as well as with the small ones.

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Welcome to AW, Christopher.

I am sorry to have to say this for your very first post, but this statement above is simply not true. (It gets said A LOT, lord knows, but so do many other blatantly untrue things...)

My publisher markets the holy hell out of my books, they have booths at conventions, they send out review copies by the score, they send out catalogs to bookstores, they take out ads on popular kid sites, they send me on book tours and to book festivals, they pay for standups and bookmarks and for favorable in-store placements.

I am fairly fortunate in a few of those things, but a great many are bog standard for any author in the house. That is normal marketing. They hire the publicist, they pay her salary, they have a marketing department.*

Small presses have fewer resources, but the good ones still market, they don't pitch you out and say "Sales are your problem now!"

The realities of the publishing world are that your publisher makes money by selling the book, so it behooves them to try and sell as many copies as possible. If they're expecting the author to do it all, they're taking a helluva big gamble that the author isn't a terrible marketer. (I know they are, because as it happens, I am a terrible marketer myself!)

I hope your book does very well, but I wouldn't run out to wrap your car just yet.


*One wonders what all those nice people in Marketing are doing if not...well...marketing!

Welcome to AW, Christopher T.!

While it does seem that authors are doing more promotion these days, it's still up to the publisher to get books into the hands of readers. Just making those books available isn't enough. You can get into many of those places on your own and keep a larger share of the money. A good publisher of any size will be able to move more books than you can on your own. They should be sending copies out for review, they should be letting the trades know about their new releases (magazines like Locus and RT publish lists of new releases), and they should support you if you happen to make appearances at genre conventions. Ad space in most program books is relatively inexpensive, and publishers typically purchase ads that showcase more than one author. None of these activities are expensive, yet they all help produce sales. A publisher can do these things at less cost and with more clout than their authors.

When it comes down to it, promoting their authors is good for the bottom line. I'm wary of a publisher that does none of these things. If they're serious about the business, if they're serious about making money, they're going to do marketing for all of their books.

Just wandering in to add: if a publisher is not committed to thoroughly editing and marketing its books, it's not earning its share of sales.

First, thank you for the welcome to the site. And thank you also for commenting on my post. I didn't say what I meant to about publicity. Of course all publishers want to sell books, and some will do more than others. If you have one that markets heck out of your book, that's wonderful. I honestly (since my novel won't be released until next fall) don't know how much marketing Rogue Phoenix will be able to do for me, but my attitude is that it's my job, and anything they do in addition is welcomed and appreciated. But the old days of publisher setting up interviews and transporting authors around the country to promote a book are pretty much over. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it's a rarity these days. My point (and I didn't properly make it) is that the less an author sits back expecting others to do the big work, the more that author's chance of better sales.

Again, thank you for the welcome, Red and Julie. I look forward to further discussions, advice, and opportunities to learn.

While I agree that these days many authors do a lot to promote their books, your principal job is to write the next one.