Ferguson Grand Jury Decision Discussion Thread

prediction?


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raburrell

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I don't remember seeing him writing anything like that. Quote it from a thread and I would probably agree with your interpretation. Ferguson's problems, based on what I have seen was a total disconnectedness from the people they policed. The Highway patrol captain that happened to be black seemed to be doing a decent job before he apparently disappeared.
I'm referring to the exchange on this page between cmhbob and Lillith91.

There's no doubt there's a lot of antipathy between black youths and the police, especially in communities like Ferguson, but it doesn't arise from nowhere.
 

Lillith1991

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I'm referring to the exchange on this page between cmhbob and Lillith91.

There's no doubt there's a lot of antipathy between black youths and the police, especially in communities like Ferguson, but it doesn't arise from nowhere.

Yes, and Lillith is quite frankly bullshit about what cmhbob chose to say. Because, don't you know that the experiences of me and millions of other POC that know POC cops is apparently an annomly or abhoration. When the ever loving hell are people going to acknowledge that something is up, when out of 150 applicant of supposedly equal talent, and say 15+ slots, not even one non-white person is hired?
 

Williebee

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FWIW (and mostly anecdotal) - I've worked with a 2 and 3 county wide career fair every year. -- rural America, very high poverty levels (70%+ free and reduced lunch students.) Each year it's only 1-2 thousand high school kids tops, probably 60/40 white to black racial make up, a very small mix of other races.

Very few of them have an interest in being computer geeks, btw. It's shiny, it's cool, but wait-- there's math. :(

Very few, regardless of color, want to be cops. Some of it is lack of faith, lack of trust. Some of it is because cops around here don't get paid worth a crap and most of the cops these kids meet are working nights and weekends.

Most of the cops in town are recruited from outside the county, but are required to live within the county limits if they pass the probation period.

They gather some feedback from the kids on the jobs and career fields that are presented to them.
 

Vince524

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As RC said, there's no reason to believe that getting more POC into law enforcement would be any magic cure. Having said that, there's certainly nothing wrong with getting more POC into law enforcement.

So 1 question is how to do that?

Another ? is why is it hard to do that? I think that there is a very deep mistrust of police by the minority community. Something that has deep roots and can't be just dismissed. It's real. And it's the same mistrust that exasperates these situations.

Repairing that and building a bridge isn't going to be easy. It's going to take work on both sides. And if I'm being honest, I would have no idea how to proceed.
 

cornflake

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I think there are communities, like Ferguson, which desperately need a more diversified police force, but I don't think they have what they have because black kids don't want to be cops.

I live in a very diverse area, with a very diverse police force - one still in trouble for killing two black men under questionable circumstances recently. One was straight-up stupidity and it's not clear if the victim being black had anything to do with anything, the other was much more complicated.

Unfortunate as it is in this day and age, black people report being more frightened of a black man behind them on a street at night than of a white man. It's not that black kids don't see black cops. They might not in their community, but people in high-poverty-rate areas tend to have a less-than-stellar relationship with law enforcement regardless of anyone's colour. Black kids don't look up and relate to a black cop just because of skin colour any more than white kids do if there's no reason to, and especially if the relationship in a general sense is adversarial.

I think a more racially diverse force in Ferguson would help, if only because it'd help the officers themselves perhaps see less separation between themselves and black people, and because it'd look better which might make people feel less hostile.
 

asroc

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I don't think that would work as well as you think it would. The communities in most need of better police relations also tend to be higher crime areas. As jumpy as some cops are in a patrol vehicle, i.e., a means of protection, escape, and storage for additional firepower, how jumpy do you think they'll be on foot and alone?

The local PD requires at least one foot patrol per tour, even in gangland areas. They typically patrol with a partner, but some will wander around shady neighborhoods by themselves every day. They’ve been doing it for going on twenty years. I work there, too, and my partner and I go in there unarmed. People know what happens if they touch us.

I guess it would depend on the size of the city. I live in Southern California and all the cops I knew worked for major police agencies, e.g, LAPD, LASD, etc. None of them lived in the city or area they worked and they always seemed opposed to the idea for the reasons I mentioned. Again, it was just anecdotal opinions from the cops that I know. Everyone's different and I'm sure LE mentalities are somewhat different in other parts of the country. I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement for all cops.

This, too, is something the local PD requires (or rather, the city has a residency requirement for most of its employees.) There are ways around it, especially for the brass, but most patrol officers do live in the city proper, with many being local. This is a big city that pays its cops well, so they usually don’t live in the high crime areas, but nevertheless, they’re part of the neighborhood. Community policing is a Big Deal around these parts and the local force is actually fairly popular. Our Ferguson protests were largely non-violent aside from some pushing and shoving, with the cops only having to exercise passive resistance. Overall crime is down.

It's definitely not a cure-all. There are still concerning incidents, shootings and stabbings are commonplace, with both victim and perpetrator usually young blacks or hispanics, drug abuse is rampant, the city gets swamped with illegal firearms and our violent crime rate is twice as high as NYCs (nowhere near Oakland's, though). But it can help.

Oh, And F the police.

All of them or can I stick with the particular one I already got?
 

nighttimer

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There are some loose ends that need to be tied up, but before I do, I'll just leave this here for all those fine folks so concerned about the looting and destruction of property, but not nearly as concerned about the destruction of human beings.

A pregnant St. Louis woman wants justice after she lost her left eye in a violent run-in with police early Tuesday at the edge of Ferguson, Mo.
Before Dornnella Conner went for a ride into the hell that engulfed St. Louis suburb on Monday night, she shared an illustration with her Facebook friends of Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin walking arm-in-arm – along with her own thoughts: “RIP – feeling mad.”

Just hours later she would be part of the tragic storyline when a police officer fired a non-lethal bean bag round at the car her boyfriend was driving, shattering the passenger side window and leaving her face a bloody mess, according to reports.

“I will have justice for what they did to me,” Conner wrote on Facebook Thursday. “But I’m happy I’m alive.”

The couple was parked at the BP gas station on New Halls Ferry Road in St. Louis, just north of the mayhem in Ferguson, when police moved in to clear the area. Police reported gun fire from the gas station and eventually made 16 arrests, KMOV reported.

Police also claim someone tried to run down an officer, who fired at the car fearing for his safety. Turns out, Conner was struck. Doctors were unable to save her left eye and Conner reports blurry vision in the other.
If you're trying to put out a fire pouring gasoline on it isn't the most effective method.
 

CassandraW

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I'll just leave this here for all those fine folks so concerned about the looting and destruction of property, but not nearly as concerned about the destruction of human beings.

Care to name those "fine folks"?

It is possible to care about people dying and yet also care about the looting, rioting, and destruction of property (much of which affects POC).
 
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vsrenard

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Wonderful. That doesn't hold true for lots of places. There are lots of places where POC don't want to be a cop, or can't be a cop because of a criminal record, or because they can't pass the tests for one reason or another. So what's the solution?

I'm not saying it can't be fixed or that it doesn't need to be fixed. I'm pointing out that it's not as simple as "hire more POC."

I can't speak for other ethnic communities but I do know that among the various Indian immigrant communities I have been exposed to across 7 or 8 states in the US, being a cop is not a commonly sought goal. The stereotype of the Indian as doctor/engineer/IT person is easily true. Lawyers and business folks are also pretty common in the community. Cops face a lot of danger for lower pay than can be had in other careers, plus there is a sense (probably a holdover from the 'mother country') that police are corrupt. Legitimacy through LEO representation is not an overarching goal among an ethnic community that tends not to have much overt problems with American law and government.

Not saying we don't need these ethnicities represented, just that it's not what parents teach their kids to go after.
 

nighttimer

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Care to name those "fine folks"?

No. I think I stated rather clearly I'm not here to answer your questions.

CassandraW said:
It is possible to care about people dying and yet also care about the looting, rioting, and destruction of property (much of which affects POC).

I don't know. Is it?
 

CassandraW

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No. I think I stated rather clearly I'm not here to answer your questions.



I don't know. Is it?

Yes.

I haven't seen a single person on this board who cares more about the looting than about loss of life. Of course you don't have to answer my questions. But nonetheless I would love to see you point to something to back up your insinuations.
 
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raburrell

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FWIW, there were quite a few semi tongue in cheek posts shortly after the verdict concerning the looting - though I know how they were intended, given the passions and emotions involved, I can see how they might come across as being more interested in that than Brown's death.

Not saying I agree, and I'm obviously not NT, just trying to show where it might come from.
 

zerosystem

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I can't understand why anyone would condone or excuse the rioting and looting that took place. The loss of life is tragic but does not give others the right to destroy the property and livelihood of others, especially of those who had nothing to do with it. Why should the pain and suffering those who have lost their businesses and jobs be ignored.

If the rioters were so upset why didn't they destroy their own homes and businesses.
 

Xelebes

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I can't understand why anyone would condone or excuse the rioting and looting that took place. The loss of life is tragic but does not give others the right to destroy the property and livelihood of others, especially of those who had nothing to do with it. Why should the pain and suffering those who have lost their businesses and jobs be ignored.

If the rioters were so upset why didn't they destroy their own homes and businesses.

No one is condoning the rioting. The rioting is a shame. It would be great if we could avoid the rioting. But because we can't avoid the rioting underway, we should be looking at ways to prevent it in the future.
 

nighttimer

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No one is condoning the rioting. The rioting is a shame. It would be great if we could avoid the rioting. But because we can't avoid the rioting underway, we should be looking at ways to prevent it in the future.

Burning the church Michael Brown's family attended isn't going to help.
FLORISSANT, Mo. — Clutching hands, about 30 members of the Lee family stood over the Thanksgiving spread. Before they could eat, family tradition dictates, they had to go around the room saying what they were thankful for.

First went the grandchildren and young cousins, who quickly declared that they were thankful for the food and for family, before passing the spotlight to the next one. (One did say thanks for his new girlfriend, prompting raised eyebrows and interested whispers from several nosy aunts.)

Then came the adults, who gave thanks for new jobs, children who are starting college and newly born grandchildren.

And then, once everyone else in the family had spoken, it was Pastor Carlton Lee’s turn. Just a few days earlier, the church that is his livelihood and his love had been destroyed by fire in the violence that engulfed Ferguson after residents learned that the white officer who shot and killed Michael Brown would not be charged by a state grand jury.

No one would blame Lee — who is the Brown family pastor — if it was a bit difficult to be thankful this year. With the whole family watching his crestfallen face, Lee took a deep breath, and began: “This last couple days had just been crazy. . . . Since August the ninth, it’s been real crazy.” Still, he said, “I’m thankful for life, and for my wife, my children, our parents. . . . If I lose everything that I have, but I still have my joy, I have enough to build it all over again.”

As chaos engulfed several Ferguson streets Monday, Lee tried unsuccessfully to chase away looters and put out fires along West Florissant Avenue. Then his phone rang.

The officer on the other end of the line told him that he needed to get to his church right away. By the time Lee arrived, the cinder-block structure had been gutted by flames.

“We all know the church got set on fire,” Lee said. “I put everything I had into the church. And to see the smoke shooting out and fire shooting out, it really did something to me.”

As they had Monday night, thick tears welled in his eyes.

Although other buildings were burned during the violence that consumed much of Ferguson on Monday, the flames at Flood Christian Church were different. The church building, purchased in March by the 31-year-old Lee, sits well outside the area where things were violent, far from the riots. The glass storefronts on each side remain unscathed.

An arson unit with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is investigating the fire, which Lee and other community members are convinced was a targeted attack.
Targeted by whom? Rioters? Klansmen? Wilson supporters?

All possible suspects and possibly none of them, but even if the truth ever comes out, who believes it and who doubts it will likely still fall along the same familiar dividing lines already present in the killing of Michael Brown.
 
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Roxxsmom

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I just read an article about this earlier, and it said his church was in a neighborhood that hadn't been touched by the rioting. It does sound like it was deliberately targeted by someone for some reason.

It's really fucking sad, and I honestly don't see how anyone can say he brought this on himself (though I don't doubt that someone will try somewhere, the internet being what it is).
 
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nighttimer

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You have to start demilitarizing the warrior cop mindset when they zip around in their cars, never know anything about the people in the neighborhoods they patrol and start trying to change the adversarial relationship between cops and communities of color. Until both sides meet each other halfway nothing will ever change.

Changing the "I am a hammer and everything is a nail" philosophy of the police would be very helpful.

This.
As long as cops are patrolling a neighbourhood in the isolation of their cars, they're not really going to get to know the people who live there. They need to get off their arses and start walking the beat. That would hopefully go some small way to closing the gap and building up some sort of relationship with the people they're supposed to be protecting.

I don't disagree with the idea of getting offices out of their cruisers, but it's not as simple as "They need to get off their arses and start walking the beat." It's going to change response times if you have officers away from their parked cars; they'll need time to get back to the car and respond if the call is more than a couple of blocks away. And if that's not going to be your policy, if you're going to have some officers on foot and some in cars, then you're actually going to end up with a higher police presence, since you'll need more bodies to cover on foot what you were covering in cars.

TL;DR: It's a good idea, but implementation won't be simple.

Nothing worth doing ever is. Community policing isn't a new idea and has had both its unqualified successes and dismal failures, but an adversarial relationship between cops and the communities they patrol is poisonous. Nothing positive can come from cops calling civilians as "fucking animals" while the civvies serenade the cops with a chorus of "Fuck the Police."

The cops have the bullets and the weaponry to fight the community, but the community has bullets and weaponry too. Neither side can win so where does that get us to but M.A.D. (mutually assured destruction)?

It's in the best interest of both sides to avoid all-out war in the streets.

Define "local." In some departments, you can't get in unless you're local.

Much has been made of racial disparity between a police department and the town it works for. But what if no one really wants to become a cop? How do you convince a black kid that the people he's been scared of for years, who locked up his dad, his uncle, his cousins, and his sister (maybe shooting one or more in the process) is a place he'd want to work for? Never mind that Dad, Uncle Joe, and all the others were actually committing crimes at the time, by the way. Would Junior really want to go work for the cops, and be seen as a traitor, or Uncle Tom?

That is both a sweeping generalization and a bit of unnecessary race-baiting, cmhbob. There are White Dads, White Uncle Joes and others whom have committed crimes yet despite the criminality of family members still produce law enforcement officers.

Take your stereotyping back through history when other ethnic minorities attempted to become police officers and the exact same argument was used to keep them out if their last name ended in a vowel. Or don't you remember "George Stone?"

Every Black cop isn't viewed as a traitor or an Uncle Tom. If that were the case, there would be no Black cops. Minorities groups will always be legitimately suspicious of cops who don't look like them, don't relate to them and don't understand them.

"If no one really wants to become a cop" that begs the question, why does anyone become a cop?

I would imagine Black cops become cops for the same reason White cops do and I doubt it's for the great pay, the round of applause and the free donuts. I figure they see a job that needs doing and they to do it.

Wonderful. That doesn't hold true for lots of places. There are lots of places where POC don't want to be a cop, or can't be a cop because of a criminal record, or because they can't pass the tests for one reason or another. So what's the solution?

I'm not saying it can't be fixed or that it doesn't need to be fixed. I'm pointing out that it's not as simple as "hire more POC."

Okay. Then from the perspective of a former law enforcement officer who says it can be fixed and needs to be fixed, how does it get fixed, cmhbob?
 

Williebee

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Two stories in today's St. Louis Post-Dispatch:

" 'Oathkeepers' guarding rooftops"

In fact, they are volunteers affiliated with a 35,000-member national organization called Oath Keepers. Yale Law School graduate and libertarian Stewart Rhodes said by telephone from Montana that he founded the group in 2009 to protect constitutional rights, including those of protesters confronted by what he described as overly militarized police.

But Rhodes, who said he is Mexican-American, was quick to assure that Oath Keepers is not anti-government. He said those pulling rooftop security in Ferguson are current or former government employees and first responders, many who have intense military, police and EMS training.

“We thought they were going to do it right this time,” Rhodes said of government response to the grand jury decision released Monday night in the Darren Wilson case. “But when Monday rolled around and they didn’t park the National Guard at these businesses, that’s when we said we have got to do something.

“Historically, the government almost always fails to protect people,” he added.

And police arrest protestors in the street in front of the Ferguson police station - 15 of the 16 from out of state.

St. Louis County Police tweeted that they issued a warning for protesters to leave the street, and some protesters ignored the warning and were taken into custody.

On Saturday morning, St. Louis County Police revised the total arrests from 15 to 16, and included a breakdown of where the protesters were from. Of the 16 arrested, nine were from New York; three from the Chicago area; two from California; one from Iowa and one from Berkeley in suburban St. Loius [sic]
 

raburrell

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Oathkeepers say they're prepared to use lethal force to protect property

“The people of Ferguson have learned a sad and difficult lesson, that there aren’t enough police and National Guard to help police all the homes and businesses,” said Sam Andrews, who organized the Oath Keeper patrols. “When you see a militarized police force and angry citizens who choose to be violent it becomes a very volatile and dangerous situation.”

Andrews, who was carrying a handgun and military-style rifle fitted with a silencer, told Sky News his group was prepared to use lethal force to protect property.

The Oath Keepers are made up of law enforcement officers, firefighters, current and former military, and other first responders who have vowed not to enforce gun laws and others they deem to be unconstitutional – and they urge others to do the same.

They urged volunteers to focus on looters and law-breakers, rather than bullying media and protestors.

Because just what every volatile situation is a bunch of idealogues with guns.
 

Lyv

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Oathkeepers say they're prepared to use lethal force to protect property



Because just what every volatile situation is a bunch of idealogues with guns.

I knew Oath Keepers range a bell. The article is about that St. Louis police officer who shoved Don Lemon of CNN and made a whole lot of offensive and violent comments in a speech to Oath Keepers.

So the group who brought in the officer as a guest speaker and sat through without objection his many disturbing comments is on the job.
He told the audience: “I'm also a killer. I've killed a lot, and if I need to I'll kill a whole bunch more. If you don't want to get killed, don't show up in front of me.

“I’m into diversity – I kill everybody”.