? about spacing and beta reader sources

acitore

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A couple of other questions...

I have recently been informed that the 2 spaces between sentences is no longer a rule in typing/keyboarding. So I read a few articles on this (interesting and informative) and it seems to be quite a contentious topic. How many spaces do most of you use for your writings when they go to ebook publish? Just curious.

Also, I'm having a difficult time finding quality beta readers for my erotica. By quality, I mean a reader or writer who has enough respect to do it in a timely manner instead of letting a month go by in silence and a reader who actually has writing skills when commenting on the story. Maybe it's just me, but it's scary to see what I've been receiving in the way of spelling, punctuation and grammar errors on comments when it's supposed to be from someone who calls themselves a writer. Does anyone have a site they'd recommend for finding them? I can't believe how difficult it's been to find even a few people! I'm also needing male beta readers.

I guess that's it for now. Thanks!
 

Osulagh

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I have recently been informed that the 2 spaces between sentences is no longer a rule in typing/keyboarding. So I read a few articles on this (interesting and informative) and it seems to be quite a contentious topic. How many spaces do most of you use for your writings when they go to ebook publish? Just curious.

What do you mean by "ebook" publish? E-publishers, or self-publishing and ebook?

The standard is single spaces. Double spaces can be hit or miss with some folk.

Also, I'm having a difficult time finding quality beta readers for my erotica. By quality, I mean a reader or writer who has enough respect to do it in a timely manner instead of letting a month go by in silence and a reader who actually has writing skills when commenting on the story.

Firstly, you should have enough respect to allow the beta-reader to have as much time they need to read.

Secondly, if they've taken that much time, either they are too busy and shouldn't taken up beta-reading, or your story isn't engaging enough to force them to sit down and read it without stopping and then comment on it--I'd go with the latter, as that's a critique in of itself.

Beta-reader are readers, they don't have to be writers. They are test subjects to help gauge what real-world readers would think of your story, and you use their reactions and comments to help your story. They don't have to be qualified--everyone is a reader, everyone has the capacity to comment on a story. If you think beta-readers need good skill in writing, you're not looking for beta-readers, but a critic.

Maybe it's just me, but it's scary to see what I've been receiving in the way of spelling, punctuation and grammar errors on comments when it's supposed to be from someone who calls themselves a writer.

If you're receiving spelling, punctuation, and grammar critiques from beta-readers, that tells me you are making at on of mistakes there or they are absolute fools--the former is probably correct. Beta-readers are more for the big picture, and if the little things--spelling, punctuation, and grammar--gets in the way, then they might hit on that more.

Does anyone have a site they'd recommend for finding them?

Here. AW has a beta-reader section and a massive thread of willing beta-readers.

I can't believe how difficult it's been to find even a few people! I'm also needing male beta readers.

Here's my advice:

1. Spend some time here in AW. Comment and give advice in threads. Spend some time in the fun threads making friends. Visit the SYW section and read and critique work (you need to ask for the Erotica password from a mod).
2. Read all the stickies in the beta-reader forum.
3. Don't ask for beta-readers in an open thread. Instead, find people in the SYW section and elsewhere on the forums that have similar thoughts on subjects as you do. No, they don't have to be good writers. Just people you like. Ask them if they're up for beta-reading. This will give you much more reliable, honest comments and suggestions that you'll find agreeable.
4. If the above doesn't suit you, look into the willing beta-reader thread in the beta-reader section. If all else fails, start a thread asking for beta-readers.
5. Offer to swap stories. This gives the other reader an incentive to return work. And this can also start up critique friendships.
 
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Viridian

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I use one space. It's my understanding that's a lot more modern. Doublespaces after periods is a holdover from back when people used typewriters to write. Time are a changin'.

Yeah, betas are tough. I'd say anyone who has more than two or three good ones is doing well. If you give what you get, then it's a big time commitment. I have no advice for finding betas. The only ones I've found have been from participating in the community here.
 

DancingMaenid

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I use one space. I know a few people who still use two spaces, though.

Maybe it's just me, but it's scary to see what I've been receiving in the way of spelling, punctuation and grammar errors on comments when it's supposed to be from someone who calls themselves a writer.

I'm not clear on what you mean by this. Do you mean that your betas give you comments that have spelling/grammar errors, or that you see people create posts on this forum that contain spelling/grammar errors?

If the former, then I've found that a lot of betas have strengths and weaknesses. If you have betas who aren't great at spelling/grammar but give good insight on other things (like characterization or plot), then I'd count your blessings (in my experience, it can be harder to find people who are comfortable giving detailed critiques of the story/characters than people who are comfortable providing basic proofreading), take the advice that's useful to you, and seek out someone who can help you with proofreading if that's a concern of yours. If your betas aren't giving you good feedback and don't have a sound grasp of spelling/grammar, then you're better off looking for new ones.

If you mean the latter, I wouldn't judge posters on here too harshly. Almost everyone makes mistakes occasionally, and while most people put effort into their posts, mistakes can escape notice. And not all writers find that spelling and grammar come naturally to them.

I know a lot of people have found betas on here, so I would try that. In general, though, I can sympathize. I find that finding a beta reader I click well with can be difficult in general, and I feel there are some extra challenges with erotica since not everyone is comfortable reading erotic content and even within the genre, people have varying tastes.
 

SierraLee

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Another single space advocate here. I feel much stronger about this subject than I probably should, so I try to remind myself it's just a convention...
 

acitore

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Well, SierraLee, you've probably pulled your hair out seeing my double spaces between sentences. But I only learned of the change a week or two ago! I'm not sure, with as much writing and offices I've worked in, how nobody ever notified me of the change over. So now when you see it (as in this response), it's just because it's so automatic with my fingers, that I'll have to train myself not to do it! And I think I type faster than I think.

Osu-You seem rather hard on me, tho I don't know why. Perhaps I didn't explain every detail I needed to, but oh well. First, I mean ebook (as in publishing my own via Amazon and Smashwords.). Second, when communicating directly with a beta reader, I let them know in what time frame I'd like it in. Obviously, I know people have lives, but the fact is I've had a few who just blew it off and then told me so. My writings are only 4-6 pages - not talking a novel. I know from feedback that it isn't a case of boredom with my writing (thank you for the insult). I have no idea what the following is meant to say... making at on of mistakes there or they are absolute fools--the former is probably correct. - Again, the former is not correct and thank you for the insult. As for finding them, some of them have come from this site. Oh well. I do exchange stories for beta reading - I feel that's the most fair. And I've done most of what you've suggested. Again, you seem very harsh on this post; don't know why.

Chick & Dancing - thanks for the small number stat! Makes me feel better. When researching ebook publishing a few months ago, I came upon website after site saying how important it was to find some beta readers. NEVER read anything about how difficult it was or how few would work out.
 

acitore

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Oh, and one more question about the double/single spaces between sentences. When I go to format it with Smashwords and Amazon and the others, will that change it to single space automatically or do I need to change manually beforehand? If the latter, is there any easy way to do that? I have dozens of stories!
 

Osulagh

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I know from feedback that it isn't a case of boredom with my writing (thank you for the insult). I have no idea what the following is meant to say... making at on of mistakes there or they are absolute fools--the former is probably correct. - Again, the former is not correct and thank you for the insult. Again, you seem very harsh on this post; don't know why.

You seem to think I'm very harsh; don't know why.

But if you think I've insulted you, there's a little red button under my username that you can click on and report me with.
 

Unimportant

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I have recently been informed that the 2 spaces between sentences is no longer a rule in typing/keyboarding.
Yeah, things have changed. I struggle with it too. I let the publisher decide how many spaces they want. I try to remember to do single spacing when I submit, but sometimes forget. It's never been a deal breaker.

Also, I'm having a difficult time finding quality beta readers for my erotica. By quality, I mean a reader or writer who has enough respect to do it in a timely manner instead of letting a month go by in silence and a reader who actually has writing skills when commenting on the story. Maybe it's just me, but it's scary to see what I've been receiving in the way of spelling, punctuation and grammar errors on comments when it's supposed to be from someone who calls themselves a writer.

Not all beta readers are writers. Some are readers/fans who don't aspire to write. Others are indeed writers who haven't yet mastered perfect punctuation and grammar but can tell an engaging story. Yet others are skilled writers who are dyslexic so require someone else to proof their written works, but don't have proofreaders for their critiques/blog posts etc.

All beta readers, though, are people doing authors a great big huge ginormous favour. The beta reader volunteers her time, and her knowledge of the genre, and her skills, in return for....well, usually, nothing, unless it's a quid pro quo beta swap. The wise author cultivates beta readers carefully.

If you're having a hard time finding good beta readers, there are a lot of possible reasons:
1. You're looking in the wrong places.
2. Your beta readers don't particularly enjoy your genre/voice/whatever.
3. Your beta readers can't fulfil your expectations with regards to timelines etc, which may mean you need to revise your expectations
4. Your beta readers don't feel like their efforts are sufficiently appreciated.
5. Probably lots of other reasons, but my brain isn't able to toss up any ideas at the mo.
 

veinglory

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One space is the normal. Find/replace can easily remove any doubles.

And as you do not indicate that you pay or excange with you beta you do sound a bit harsh in the vein of 'looking the gift horse in the mouth'.

If you want a great beta you develop a relationship with either a super fan who finds seeing your work first to be reward enough, or a fellow writer you exchange beta services with (in which case you will tend to get back in quality and timeliness whatever you yourself are willing and able to provide).
 

dangerousbill

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One advantage of double spaces is that you can remove them all with a single step. You can't do that easily in reverse. So if you're already accustomed to leaving double spaces, go on doing so. Just remove them before submitting to most publishers.

It's getting more infrequent every year, but every so often, you'll run into a publisher who wants double spaces, and then you'll be ready.
 

Maryn

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My understanding is that the two-spaces standard was for the convenience of editors and typesetters working with copy produced on a typewriter, which was always Courier. So if you submit work in Courier New (or any other Courier font) two spaces at the end of a sentence continues to be correct, although nobody will dock you for using only one space.

If you submit in any other font, you use one space.

It is indeed easy to replace two spaces with one, and very difficult going from one to two, since there are plenty of periods which don't end sentences but abbreviations. If you're used to two, you could continue typing it that way, and later spend the ten seconds or so it takes to replace them.

May I also echo what's already been said about beta readers? You get back what you give.

If you help others--not limited to beta reads but certainly including them--they're more likely to help you. Other kinds of help include critique in Share Your Work, brainstorming for titles, helping people sort out a plot element or make a decision about a character, assisting them in researching something they need to know for their work in progress, like that.

If you participate at AW in general and in your genre's boards in particular, people will feel like they know you and be more likely to offer to beta read for you. I see your membership goes back three months but you've posted only 16 times, remaining a relative stranger 'round these parts. Jump in and talk to us, so we know you. I'm the only one who bites, and that not often.

Maryn, not all that scary until you see her in shorts
 

Big Kahuna

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I use double spaces, and have never received a complaint. Looks fine on the iPad to me. I might try single space once, just to see.
 

Big Kahuna

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Well, I tried single spaces, and can't say I like the look. It makes the text look blockier, less fluid. Personal preference.

On a side note, when using Scrivener, you can convert double spaces into single spaces when compiling, thereby leaving your original text unconverted. I rather like that functionality.

I'm not big on beta readers. I've had proofreaders miss typos or correct legitimate text. I have missed typos myself, but at least it's my own fuck up. As to having a reader to bounce ideas off of, no way in hell. I write to please myself first, the audience comes second...hopefully.
 

SentaHolland

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I love my double spaces...
And I'm never really sure what people expect from beta readers, so I try to be my own, mostly. Apart from very very late in the process when I already feel confident and it's really important to me to 'know the source' and where they're coming from as readers. That's me. Oh what a satisfying double space...
 

Winfred

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Well, SierraLee, you've probably pulled your hair out seeing my double spaces between sentences. But I only learned of the change a week or two ago! I'm not sure, with as much writing and offices I've worked in, how nobody ever notified me of the change over. So now when you see it (as in this response), it's just because it's so automatic with my fingers, that I'll have to train myself not to do it! And I think I type faster than I think.

Osu-You seem rather hard on me, tho I don't know why. Perhaps I didn't explain every detail I needed to, but oh well. First, I mean ebook (as in publishing my own via Amazon and Smashwords.). Second, when communicating directly with a beta reader, I let them know in what time frame I'd like it in. Obviously, I know people have lives, but the fact is I've had a few who just blew it off and then told me so. My writings are only 4-6 pages - not talking a novel. I know from feedback that it isn't a case of boredom with my writing (thank you for the insult). I have no idea what the following is meant to say... making at on of mistakes there or they are absolute fools--the former is probably correct. - Again, the former is not correct and thank you for the insult. As for finding them, some of them have come from this site. Oh well. I do exchange stories for beta reading - I feel that's the most fair. And I've done most of what you've suggested. Again, you seem very harsh on this post; don't know why.

Chick & Dancing - thanks for the small number stat! Makes me feel better. When researching ebook publishing a few months ago, I came upon website after site saying how important it was to find some beta readers. NEVER read anything about how difficult it was or how few would work out.

HI Aticore!

Thanks for taking the time to create this "thread" I think they call it! I just registered today with "CP" which stands for "Critique Partner" It seems all the bios I read are from fairly new writers and not necessarily "Beta Readers". Click on this link. I hope it works!

http://howaboutwecp.tumblr.com/post/47031239990/about-how-about-we-cp

Some readers work in the writing field as a career and write creatively in their own time. The website is organized very nicely. They have the critiquers under quite a few different genres; and your genre of Erotica is one. I just looked and found seven bios under that genre! I counted 38 categories and almost all are genres and others that would cross over with you! It might be a fairly new site. I don't know if the critiquers are good or not... just something you might try, like me. I emailed three so far. Keep your head high and be proud you have the ability to create an entire book, a work of art! You are in a very popular genre; and I hope you do very well! Thanks again for creating this thread and please don't let anyone get you down, no way!

With Kindest Regards,
Winfred

PS I'll keep looking and come back here if I find any good beta reader websites etc. Just one so far.
 

Winfred

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Found more Beta Readers at AW!!

A couple of other questions...

I have recently been informed that the 2 spaces between sentences is no longer a rule in typing/keyboarding. So I read a few articles on this (interesting and informative) and it seems to be quite a contentious topic. How many spaces do most of you use for your writings when they go to ebook publish? Just curious.

Also, I'm having a difficult time finding quality beta readers for my erotica. By quality, I mean a reader or writer who has enough respect to do it in a timely manner instead of letting a month go by in silence and a reader who actually has writing skills when commenting on the story. Maybe it's just me, but it's scary to see what I've been receiving in the way of spelling, punctuation and grammar errors on comments when it's supposed to be from someone who calls themselves a writer. Does anyone have a site they'd recommend for finding them? I can't believe how difficult it's been to find even a few people! I'm also needing male beta readers.

I guess that's it for now. Thanks!

Hi again!

I just found more links so you can find Beta Readers. Try this right at this very site!

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154927&highlight=find+beta+readers&page=19

Hope I helped!

Carpe Diem!
Winfred
 

Winfred

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BETA READER JACKPOT!

A couple of other questions...

I have recently been informed that the 2 spaces between sentences is no longer a rule in typing/keyboarding. So I read a few articles on this (interesting and informative) and it seems to be quite a contentious topic. How many spaces do most of you use for your writings when they go to ebook publish? Just curious.

Also, I'm having a difficult time finding quality beta readers for my erotica. By quality, I mean a reader or writer who has enough respect to do it in a timely manner instead of letting a month go by in silence and a reader who actually has writing skills when commenting on the story. Maybe it's just me, but it's scary to see what I've been receiving in the way of spelling, punctuation and grammar errors on comments when it's supposed to be from someone who calls themselves a writer. Does anyone have a site they'd recommend for finding them? I can't believe how difficult it's been to find even a few people! I'm also needing male beta readers.

I guess that's it for now. Thanks!

Hi Aticore!

I just found 101 pages of various threads all grouped together at this very site, AW! This might be all you need! I haven't explored it yet but it's amazing! I hope to find a reader there... don't ask how I got there as I'm not that great a navigating at AW yet. Click on this

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30

Hope this helped!

Top of the Evening!
Winfred