Ok. Um... wow.

CassandraW

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But if he's demoting cardinals over their anti-gay views, isn't that a real departure?

Isn't that a big deal? I don't know enough about church structure to know for sure, but I thought cardinals were biggies.

It seems like a real departure to me. Certainly, it's going beyond just mouthing platitudes. Whether he's successful or not in reforming the church, it seems to me that it is his intention. Maybe I'm an incurable optimist?

(Unfortunately, in light of the church's history, even mouthing platitudes of that nature was a departure.)
 

Shadow Dragon

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I don't think Cardinals are that big in the grandscheme, but they do play important roles in different regions. So, yeah, I would say demoting them is a good step.
 

Duncan J Macdonald

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Cardinals are the Princes of the Church. It is from their ranks that a Pope is raised.

What Francis is proposing is to remove Raymond Cardinal Burke from his position as the head of the Court of Canon Law, and move him to the head of the Knights of Malta -- which is a serious demotion. Kind of like taking the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court (US) and making him the CEO of Run for the Cure.

Of course, he could always end the outcry by speaking ex cathedra on the subject.
 

Amadan

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Of course, he could always end the outcry by speaking ex cathedra on the subject.


I think that would more likely cause a real schism rather than end the outcry.

If I'm not mistaken, in theory ex cathedra pronouncements are supposed to come from God, not just when the Pope really, really wants people to agree with him.
 

Duncan J Macdonald

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Not quite.

From the Catholic Encylopedia:
Literally "from the chair", a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Roman pontiff. Originally the name of the seat occupied by a professor or a bishop, cathedra was used later on to denote the magisterium, or teaching authority. The phrase ex cathedra occurs in the writings of the medieval theologians, and more frequently in the discussions which arose after the Reformation in regard to the papal prerogatives. But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable."

AS far as I can tell, there haven't been any such pronouncements that one can use to differentiate between your two examples.
 
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Amadan

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"Divinely revealed."

I am not a Catholic, but from what Catholics have told me, the Pope doesn't (isn't supposed to) speak Ex Cathedra except when God has actually "revealed" a divine truth to him. There is a distinction made between "the Pope's opinion" (which obviously, carries a tremendous weight) and "things God personally revealed to the Pope."

In theory, at least, claiming a divine revelation is not something the Pope is supposed to do just to shut up dissenters.

Whether or not you believe such a distinction exists in actuality would depend on whether you believe God actually speaks to the Pope, of course. But if you believe the Pope believes God speaks to him, then presumably he wouldn't speak Ex Cathedra unless he really believed it came from God.

More pragmatically, I suspect the Pope knows that claiming God has revealed to him that homosexuality is okay would be a bridge too far for a lot of Catholics.
 

Don

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Agorism FTW!
More pragmatically, I suspect the Pope knows that claiming God has revealed to him that homosexuality is okay would be a bridge too far for a lot of Catholics.
Maybe if he phrased it correctly?

"God said most of those prohibitions in Leviticus are old news. It's now OK to mix fabrics, not OK to sell your kids into slavery, and you can shave, eat pork and shellfish, and quit stoning your adulterous neighbors without risking your heavenly redemption."

Oh, and he said the whole hating on gays thing is out too."

That just might sell it, I think. :)
 

c.e.lawson

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Catholic moral dogma is not arbitrary. Nor is it gleaned directly from a conversation the pope has with God. It is based on natural moral law. And depending on the particular perspective here, there might be room for some significant change with regard to homosexuality. But it's going to take a lot of discourse. It does seem, however, that this is a real start to that discourse.

Disclaimer: I minored in Catholic theology at a Jesuit university. I in no way consider myself an expert on this issue or Catholicism in general, but I might try to clarify a misconception on occasion.

If anyone is interested, here's a link with an excellent explanation of one perspective of the concept of natural moral law. (Note, the article doesn't address homosexuality specifically but uses contraception in examples.)

http://www2.franciscan.edu/plee/natural_law.htm

A perennial misunderstanding of the natural moral law is to think of it as being nothing more than the natural teleologies of the various parts or powers of human nature. Indeed some thinkers have argued that the Church’s positions on sexual ethics, especially on contraception, were tied to "physicalism" or "naturalism." Physicalism or naturalism is the view that the criterion for what is morally right or wrong is simply the natural pattern of man’s potentialities, so that certain acts are wrong simply because they are not in line with, or frustrate, the natural direction of this or that given power....

On the physicalist or naturalist view, contraception would be wrong simply because it goes against the natural teleology of man’s sexual power. However, the natural moral law need not be understood in such an impersonalist way. The moral criterion, as we have explained it above, is not the patterns found in human nature as given, but the real goods to which human beings are naturally inclined, such goods being no less than the intrinsic aspects of the full-being of human persons. Thus, it is true that the natural moral law is in some way based on the natural teleologies found in human beings; but this is so only in the sense that choices which are respectful of every aspect of human persons must be respectful of the real goods which constitute the full-being of human persons. On the other hand, it is this love of the real fulfillment of human persons, not the restriction of given patterns in human nature, that is decisive for the moral criterion.
 

CassandraW

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Yeah, I agree, this is pretty startling news....the pope going with things the Catholic Church is supposed to be strictly against? Weird.

Traditions of men have just changed from bad to worse.

So you're in favor of the Catholic Church sticking with its traditional position on homosexuality?

What about divorce and birth control?
 

CassandraW

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*dons hazmat suit; grabs Nerf gun*

I like Pope Francis no matter what any of youse peoplez's's's says!
 

CassandraW

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If more holy wars were fought with Nerf guns, the world would be a better, happier place.
 

Mharvey

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Love it.

So many people like to say that we're moving into a society of reason and religion has no place in it. It's nice to see that, once in awhile, you see hints that religion and reason can co-exist happily. Just don't try to marry them yet - small steps.