Ellora's Cave Publishing, Inc.

It's always some Outside Force or Negative People who are always, always the cause of the problems. It's the H8rs who've never stood behind her or believed in her vision. It's all the ppl online who don't know her and what's really going on but they're the ones who insist on spreading the false, malicious rumors and slander* her in online forums and on Facebook because they're not interested in learning The Truth. She's only standing up for herself and her True Friends, and everybody who doesn't believe her, well, so there .

*Yes, I know.

junierob said:

Oh, I plan to fulfill my contract to the letter. I'll give them a well-crafted 7K erotic romance. It's the themes of the story they might not want to read.

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I spent the afternoon polishing mine and sending it in. The next deadline I have with them is in December. We'll see what's what by then, I expect, one way or the other.

Wishing you well! I hope we all get out of this with our hides as intact as possible.

Bubastes said:

This FB comment by Jaid Black made me go

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Yeah... I was also like when she said she cleaned up her FB and then issued the challenge to authors to prove themselves. Er...how are they gonna see that when you blocked them?

On a serious note...there's still been no official word on the two leaving. In fact, I haven't gotten an email from the company since August. IMHO wouldn't any company want to keep its authors informed and contact them directly with issues, rather than bring it (and snark) to social media? Yeah, some authors are bitching out there and asking their readers not to buy EC books (I'm not one of them... I only have on book left, so my horse in the race is small and pitiful...and I love Laurann Dohner, so I'm totally buying her books), but for someone of her caliber within the company to do that seems unprofessional to me. And if there isn't anything wrong as she's stressing, then coming out like that just makes her and the company look bad.

Ok... I need more coffee...

MandyHarbin said:

IMHO wouldn't any company want to keep its authors informed and contact them directly with issues, rather than bring it (and snark) to social media?

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Boy, does this sound way too familiar to me. Having been through a similar nightmare with another publisher, reading this thread is like reliving the whole thing - the one good thing to take away was that the social media slams and outright harassment and threats really backfired on the people doing the slamming. It's a really stupid thing to do, especially since the internet (and scorned and cheated authors) have very long memories.

And right now, I'm feeling super glad EC rejected my one and only submission to them.

Gianna

(On a side note, one thing I've noticed about Engler is that she bears a striking resemblance to Grumpy Cat, or am I the only one who thought that upon seeing her recent pics?)

At risk of sounding flippant, at least Grumpy Cat has a franchise that's making money.

Have you all seen Jaid's latest Facebook post? She denies everything, calls people liars and says she's being cyber-bullied. What's most interesting, though, is that it sounds like one of the bigger publishers is trying to buy EC's contracts:

One of these publishers brought me to tears because s/he said (in a nutshell) "You're a competitor, but a well-respected one who deserves to win." S/he is even brokering a deal that benefits EC more so than Publisher X.

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I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but authors going public about not being paid isn't bullying.

If she is being personally attacked that is a whole other can of worms so to speak.

Maybe a deal will be brokered that will be beneficial for all.

I'm inclined to believe Jaid does think she's being bullied by authors going public. The consistent mismanagement makes me think she doesn't even know it is mismanagement; she can't see why what worked for a company that emailed out PDFs isn't working for a single epub in a sea of epubs and self-publishers, so it's got to be someone else causing the problems. Because, you see you guuuuuuys, she worked realllllly hard to get to where she is and it just wouldn't be fair if all that went away, and only mean people would try and take it from her because they're jealous. Only mean authors would expect to get paid, and only mean editors refuse to work for free, and the mean ol' IRS keeps asking her to pay tax, and really, don't mean people deserve to be harassed and threatened with reports to Interpol?

There is a really good chance she is being bullied. With so many people involved it would be unusual if some small portion of there weren't behaving badly. Which is not to say I condone such behavior. Just, realistically, in any situation that has gotten sufficiently large, there will be those who behave in this way.

However, that fact does not exculpate Ellora's Cave from the breaches of contract and other issues that have been raised, nor does the fact that some subset of a group is engaging in bullying mean that everyone is by association.

"Someone is being mean to me" is not logically followed by "so nothing is my fault," no matter how much some people might wish it were so.

Regardless, this all needs to be sorted out, and at this point that isn't likely to happen without a full neutral audit of accounting and records, which, sadly, is probably not going to happen without serious legal intervention.

Lady Chipmunk said:

Regardless, this all needs to be sorted out, and at this point that isn't likely to happen without a full neutral audit of accounting and records, which, sadly, is probably not going to happen without serious legal intervention.

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IMHO, not even with given prior history. EC already got a judicial smackdown for failure to produce documents (including books) and got a summary judgment against themselves. Jaid will need a few megatons of humble pie before opening the books happens.

Given that, any possible deal will almost certainly fall through.

IMHO, a buyout would probably be best for the authors. It really seems like Jaid has other fish to fry.

junierob said:

Have you all seen Jaid's latest Facebook post? She denies everything, calls people liars and says she's being cyber-bullied. What's most interesting, though, is that it sounds like one of the bigger publishers is trying to buy EC's contracts:

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That might be for the best. I guess, I would be wondering if it's actually true or just meant to keep the masses quiet.

Aggy, cynic

There's some interesting reading....

In this SBTB thread from 2008.

...and in this DA post about the EC/Brashear lawsuit fallout.

Deirdre said:

IMHO, not even with given prior history. EC already got a judicial smackdown for failure to produce documents (including books) and got a summary judgment against themselves. Jaid will need a few megatons of humble pie before opening the books happens.

Given that, any possible deal will almost certainly fall through.

IMHO, a buyout would probably be best for the authors. It really seems like Jaid has other fish to fry.

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It's more likely she's selling off contracts than selling off the whole thing. EC has a few bestsellers that NY would probably like to get its hands on--Laurann, for one.

Aggy B. said:

That might be for the best. I guess, I would be wondering if it's actually true or just meant to keep the masses quiet.

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Yes, I'd like this to be true. However, without context the message reads more like "The lurkers support me in e-mail".

(I can't access Facebook from here, so I can't see if Jaid gave any further details on this deal. If not, the deal could be anything, so it seems premature to speculate on EC selling their contracts. The message suggests that they are not giving up: they feel they deserve to succeed.)

junierob said:

It's more likely she's selling off contracts than selling off the whole thing. EC has a few bestsellers that NY would probably like to get its hands on--Laurann, for one.

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I haven't read Laurann, so I don't know her writing, but a lot of what EC publishes is stuff that NY wouldn't. I don't really know of any publisher who'd pick up the whole kit and caboodle. They'd probably pick up lines and/or authors, leaving everyone else in the lurch.

Using the 100k guideline, we're not looking at huge numbers. Most of her most popular titles have an Amazon sales rank between 7,000s and 11,000s, meaning they're selling on the order of 10-15 copies a day in Kindle.

In aggregate, probably worth something, but solidly midlist on single titles, which means it's probably not compelling enough for most publishers. The newest book has a horrible rank (because it's paper only), and that may be weighted more heavily in negotiations.

Ludens said:

Yes, I'd like this to be true. However, without context the message reads more like "The lurkers support me in e-mail".

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She has a few people supporting her on her FB page, too. Not a ton, and I don't know if it's anyone who has any meaningful influence.

Ellora's Cave have has quite a few authors cross over to the big publishing houses.

Deirdre said:

I haven't read Laurann, so I don't know her writing...

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Laurann's books have been hitting the lists for the last two years. She's the biggest seller EC has, period.

They also have a lot of other bestsellers. Mari Carr, Joey W. Hill, Lolita Lopez, Paige Tyler, Desiree Holt, Aline Hunter, Joanna Wylde, Amanda Ashley, Kate Hill, and I mean those are just the people I can think of off the top of my head.

Do you really think those contracts aren't valuable in the hands of a company that knows what to do with them? Those backlists are worth millions.

Many, many EC authors have NY contracts already.

ETA: Didn't EC once sell off Sarah McCarty's books without her permission? I remember some Romancelandia brouhaha seven or eight years ago over it. I think it was SM.

I think there is enough overlap with Big 5 and their imprints to make it well worth investing. I have seen EC authors cross over, writing fairly similar stuff. Sure, no press will want every single thing from another press, but they buy and piece it out--returning or selling back to authors rights they don't want. Even EC is making money on sell backs.

junierob said:

Laurann's books have been hitting the lists for the last two years. She's the biggest seller EC has, period.

They also have a lot of other bestsellers. Mari Carr, Joey W. Hill, Lolita Lopez, Paige Tyler, Desiree Holt, Aline Hunter, Joanna Wylde, Amanda Ashley, Kate Hill, and I mean those are just the people I can think of off the top of my head.

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I'm not saying they don't have authors who sell. Apparently (based on tax liens, which are a matter of public record), there aren't enough authors who sell well enough to support current spending.

junierob said:

Do you really think those contracts aren't valuable in the hands of a company that knows what to do with them? Those backlists are worth millions.

Many, many EC authors have NY contracts already.

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I assume that any author worth their salt will sell to the market of best opportunity for a given work. Ergo, I'd expect that a given author's EC titles would be different than their NY publisher titles (with a not insignificant but niche market), and not necessarily worth millions to, say, Harlequin. Even in aggregate.

This doesn't mean there isn't value, but the value is a constantly depreciating asset because the time remaining on the valuable contracts (which will tend to be the ones without in perpetuity clauses) is constantly decreasing.

The thing is, we do not live in a super-rational world and some authors like to spread their bets. So, yes, authors have sent books to EC they could have sent to NY. And authors have written similar books for both, sometimes sequentially (in both directions) and sometime at the same time. From my experience reading them, the distinction between EC and NY is ... actually a very wide overlap especially at the higher selling end of EC. The value even of the sell backs being offered to individual authors are in the five figure range. At their peak many of EC books out sold and out-earned many NY titles and were clearly in the same quality class. And these contracts include future options. Is their contracted work a gold mine? Probably not--but at the right price it would be a seriously valuable asset. I do not doubt she has received or will receive serious offers/

Yikes

One look at this woman's YouTube videos screams of her level of professionalism. Repulsive and frightening.

My heart bleeds for all of the authors, editors, and graphic-artists that are caught up in this train-wreck.

Scary in so many ways

veinglory said:

The thing is, we do not live in a super-rational world and some authors like to spread their bets. So, yes, authors have sent books to EC they could have sent to NY. And authors have written similar books for both, sometimes sequentially (in both directions) and sometime at the same time. From my experience reading them, the distinction between EC and NY is ... actually a very wide overlap especially at the higher selling end of EC. The value even of the sell backs being offered to individual authors are in the five figure range. At their peak many of EC books out sold and out-earned many NY titles and were clearly in the same quality class. And these contracts include future options. Is their contracted work a gold mine? Probably not--but at the right price it would be a seriously valuable asset. I do not doubt she has received or will receive serious offers/

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I hope that whatever deal(s) happen(s) benefits all EC authors.

Several of Jaid's comments make it sound like her heart's no longer in the erotic romance market.

I've been a business owner who was burned out on the business, wanting to go off and do new things. It's hard to let go.

EC in its day offered much better renumeration than NY. Some carried on writing for NY and EC, because the royalty rate was 40%. Only when you get to be a big name, and command huge advances did it get better to take the NY route.

Still no word from the company to the authors, at least. I haven't heard from my editor in more than a week, not even acknowledgement of the submission I sent in to fulfill the contract I had due this month. Previous to this, she was generally responding to email within two days.

Emails about new releases continue to go out on the company newsletter on a daily basis, but books that are coming out in the next 2-3 weeks--mine included--still have a "coming soon" title.

This is me, continuing to be frustrated. I'm much, much more patient with ANYONE if they tell me what's going on, even if it's some lame excuse, like how Amazon magically lost all their titles...sigh.