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Entangled Publishing

Jamiekswriter

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Le Mole,

I looked at your post from 11 days ago and I didn't see specific concerns that weren't addressed. Maybe if you list them again in the form of questions Heather/Liz can address them easier? Just my .02. -- Jamie
 

Le Mole

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Le Mole,

I looked at your post from 11 days ago and I didn't see specific concerns that weren't addressed. Maybe if you list them again in the form of questions Heather/Liz can address them easier? Just my .02. -- Jamie

I thought:

'Why is there still no system in place for solid release dates so authors can organise their publicity?' and 'Why, a year after you promised it would not happen anymore, are authors still being required to rewrite their books after QA?' were pretty specific, as was 'We have been promised a number of times over the years that you will learn from your mistakes and absolutely nothing has changed. Why should we believe you now?'

Maybe the questions were lost in my reasoning as to why these issues are important.
 

Jamiekswriter

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Thanks Le Mole! That's perfect. I had missed those very important questions. Let's hope Entangled comes back and addresses them!
 

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Thanks everyone for responding to my post! It has really helped to ease my mind about privacy concerns. And I had never even considered about the copy-write page! You have all really been helpful! Thanks so much.
 

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...the author’s voice is smothered into nothing.

Hmmm. Interesting. At the beginning, I was a HUGE Entangled fan. I read every release and wanted to be one of their authors. But then I noticed something. Every Brazen book had the same voice. I stopped reading them because it was a case of the same snarky heroine/troubled hero just under different names. (This may have changed. It's been a while since I've read one.)
 
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Bubastes

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Hmmm. Interesting. At the beginning, I was a HUGE Entangled fan. I read every release and wanted to be one of their authors. But then I noticed something. Every Brazen book had the same voice.

I noticed this with their later releases as well. Also, I initially loved the Bliss and Indulgence books, but lately the blurbs haven't interested me because they all sounded like trope soup. More tropes aren't always better.
 
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Fed Up Writer

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Tropes

Bubastes you've no idea how much I laughed reading that. The irony is - all authors are told to put three tropes in their books because tropes sell - whether they agree with that or not. I find it so interesting that readers have an entirely different opinion!
 

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How strange to have that much of a formula. Do they give you a list of tropes you should be pulling from?
 

Bubastes

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Bubastes you've no idea how much I laughed reading that. The irony is - all authors are told to put three tropes in their books because tropes sell - whether they agree with that or not. I find it so interesting that readers have an entirely different opinion!

Yeah, I don't get requiring three tropes at all. Squeezing that many tropes into 60K words or fewer often makes the story feel unnatural to me. When I see a bunch of tropes crammed into the blurb, I cringe. Too many tropes also increases the chance I'll run into one I don't like (example: I'm not a fan of best friend's sisters, cowboys, or secret babies). I've bought fewer books because of this.

How strange to have that much of a formula. Do they give you a list of tropes you should be pulling from?

I don't know if Entangled has a list of tropes per se, but there are lists out there. I have NO problems with tropes (I love them!), but when tropes are combined simply to have more tropes instead of to improve the story, it shows.

http://www.mindyklasky.com/index.php/for-writers/romance-tropes/
http://www.romysommer.com/2012/10/tropes-in-romance.html

ETA: I did a quick review of category romances I particularly liked. Most used only one trope, two max.
 
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CEtchison

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I actually participated in the first Entangled Smackdown with Romy. They were and continue to be ALL ABOUT THE TROPES. Three are an absolute requirement. And if what you pitched them only had two, they'd make you force a third in there somehow.

What I saw over the course of that month convinced me to never submit my work to Entangled. Some of the editors' comments were extremely rude and the promises of extensive guidance never came to fruition as feedback to even direct questions was practically non-existent after the first week.
 

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How strange to have that much of a formula. Do they give you a list of tropes you should be pulling from?

They do give lists of examples on their submissions page. (Expand the guidelines for one of the category lines.)

Yeah, I don't get requiring three tropes at all. Squeezing that many tropes into 60K words or fewer often makes the story feel unnatural to me. When I see a bunch of tropes crammed into the blurb, I cringe. Too many tropes also increases the chance I'll run into one I don't like (example: I'm not a fan of best friend's sisters, cowboys, or secret babies). I've bought fewer books because of this.

I refuse to read secret baby books. Best friend's sister is something I run into a lot. Doesn't usually bother me, though I don't particularly like it. Sometimes the conflict ends up seeming a little lame. Cowboys are ok.

I've seen discussion about all the use of tropes at Entangled on Dear Author as well.
 
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CEtchison

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I have a question for those who have far more experience in this industry than I do. But I follow several of the Entangled editors on Twitter and more than once over the years I've seen them post "Have plotted out an entire story/series idea... now to find someone to write it."

Does this happen elsewhere? I've seen editors say they'd like a motorcycle club story or a billionaire story or a cowboy story, but do editors at other publishing houses actually plot out an entire story and then go looking for someone to write what they want?
 

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I don't know if Entangled has a list of tropes per se, but there are lists out there. I have NO problems with tropes (I love them!), but when tropes are combined simply to have more tropes instead of to improve the story, it shows.
Too many tropes reminds me of the complaints about bad Harlequin Presents titles fans posted at a lot of review sites and blogs. (Those complaints were being made years before Entangled was formed.) We could imagine some marketing genius saying "Let's see how many terms we can fit into the title." She's not just a bride, she's an amnesiac bride, marrying a rancher. Or a tycoon. A lot of us also noticed we were buying fewer Harlequin Presents. Some marketing genius. :rolleyes:

Also, to me, part of the attraction of a indie like Entangled is that they will be able to publish more authors outside the norm, not try to copy what big publishers are already putting out. (Those "authors with unique voices" that editors always ask for at conferences.) If I wanted to read a category-length novel with lots of tropes, I'd buy a Presents. But I'd rather buy an older Presents, or an older Silhouette, that concentrated on the story, characters, and voice.
 

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How strange to have that much of a formula. Do they give you a list of tropes you should be pulling from?

It's almost at the stage where the author plays a game of Pin the Tail on the Trope and the first three tropes to get stabbed get thrown into the story. Liz has also done a workshop for all us authors on tropes. If you don't have enough you are forced to put more in whether it's good for your story or not.
 

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I have a question for those who have far more experience in this industry than I do. But I follow several of the Entangled editors on Twitter and more than once over the years I've seen them post "Have plotted out an entire story/series idea... now to find someone to write it."

Does this happen elsewhere? I've seen editors say they'd like a motorcycle club story or a billionaire story or a cowboy story, but do editors at other publishing houses actually plot out an entire story and then go looking for someone to write what they want?

I know of a few "entities" (companies, creative folks, etc) who will often hire writers, give them a "seed" idea, ask for you to outline it, work with you on the outline and help you along the way in writing it (but they get a considerable cut). I can't remember the exact name. A literary development company? Google that and you'll get some hits.
 

EvolvingK

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I have a question for those who have far more experience in this industry than I do. But I follow several of the Entangled editors on Twitter and more than once over the years I've seen them post "Have plotted out an entire story/series idea... now to find someone to write it."

Does this happen elsewhere? I've seen editors say they'd like a motorcycle club story or a billionaire story or a cowboy story, but do editors at other publishing houses actually plot out an entire story and then go looking for someone to write what they want?

I'm actually paying my rent doing this right now as a freelancer/ghost writer. I get a blurb that's basically what you'd see on the back of a book, and I create an outline based on that. Once it's approved, I write a book, usually either 25k or 60k, and get paid for it. The pay isn't amazing, but it's pretty damn decent, and it's by far more than I was making trying to self-pub my stuff (see: paying rent).

It's good work, though I've had to really get my ego out of the way. It's not about my art, it's about what my client thinks will sell. I've developed a good enough reputation on the service I use that I can be a little choosey about certain things--I won't write a story without explicit consent, or safer sex practices (unless there's a Reason, like a surprise baby is part of the plot), for example. I had some work for a while that was in super niche areas, cuckolding and magical-girl fantasies, that was entertaining to write.

It's not what I want to do forever, but for now, I have a career that lets me be home with my kids and work on my stuff in between one thing and another.

ETA: The way that I do this, I get paid a flat fee, and I'm hired as a ghostwriter. I sell all rights to the work upon completion. Technically, I can't even point to the books I've written and say "Hey, look, that one's me."
 
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Fed Up Writer

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One of the reasons

The trope thing was one of the reasons I decided I wasn't a good fit for Entangled. That, and the lack of communication, awful copy editing and general disregard for their writers.
I am sure that Liz probably has good research into the whole use of tropes and how they help sell books. I can't think of any other reason they would be so focused on them. It has to be a business reason, hasn't it?
 

CEtchison

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I'm actually paying my rent doing this right now as a freelancer/ghost writer. I get a blurb that's basically what you'd see on the back of a book, and I create an outline based on that. Once it's approved, I write a book, usually either 25k or 60k, and get paid for it. The pay isn't amazing, but it's pretty damn decent, and it's by far more than I was making trying to self-pub my stuff (see: paying rent).

It's good work, though I've had to really get my ego out of the way. It's not about my art, it's about what my client thinks will sell. I've developed a good enough reputation on the service I use that I can be a little choosey about certain things--I won't write a story without explicit consent, or safer sex practices (unless there's a Reason, like a surprise baby is part of the plot), for example. I had some work for a while that was in super niche areas, cuckolding and magical-girl fantasies, that was entertaining to write.

It's not what I want to do forever, but for now, I have a career that lets me be home with my kids and work on my stuff in between one thing and another.

ETA: The way that I do this, I get paid a flat fee, and I'm hired as a ghostwriter. I sell all rights to the work upon completion. Technically, I can't even point to the books I've written and say "Hey, look, that one's me."

While very cool to know there are those opportunities out there, I don't think that's what Entangled does. As a matter of fact I know Liz once made a call on Twitter for a story she'd plotted and then had people submit samples of work to decide who would get to write it. It was later publicized the story was given to Christine Bell. I can only assume what she made off the book would be similar to the same pay/risk/reward of an original work they chose to publish and was not paid a flat fee for her work.
 

Le Mole

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The trope thing was one of the reasons I decided I wasn't a good fit for Entangled. That, and the lack of communication, awful copy editing and general disregard for their writers.
I am sure that Liz probably has good research into the whole use of tropes and how they help sell books. I can't think of any other reason they would be so focused on them. It has to be a business reason, hasn't it?

It absolutely was a business decision. They looked at their best selling books and noted many had a minimum of three identifiable tropes, and so decided to implement it into all their books. Crazy.
 

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While very cool to know there are those opportunities out there, I don't think that's what Entangled does. As a matter of fact I know Liz once made a call on Twitter for a story she'd plotted and then had people submit samples of work to decide who would get to write it. It was later publicized the story was given to Christine Bell. I can only assume what she made off the book would be similar to the same pay/risk/reward of an original work they chose to publish and was not paid a flat fee for her work.

Sure; you just asked if this was something other editors did, and I was responding that yup, at least one company in my acquaintance does this.
 

LeaveMeBroken

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I follow several of the Entangled editors on Twitter and more than once over the years I've seen them post "Have plotted out an entire story/series idea... now to find someone to write it."

Does this happen elsewhere? I've seen editors say they'd like a motorcycle club story or a billionaire story or a cowboy story, but do editors at other publishing houses actually plot out an entire story and then go looking for someone to write what they want?

We call these "spec projects," though the concept is actually quite common in the industry. Entangled handles these differently than, say, a book packager, where the pay is less than ideal. (I've worked with a book packager in the past, so I can speak to this personally.) Entangled spec projects are contracted the same way regular books are contracted, with royalties matching those an author would receive for their own books. It's a popular option for prolific authors who just want to write without having to come up with the perfect story and characters. It also works well for debut authors who have a fantastic voice, but haven't yet learned how to craft a solid story for a specific imprint.

Spec projects aren't for everyone. If you're the type of author who likes to take an idea and transform it into something totally different, you'll probably feel too limited. We pick and choose who we take on for spec projects carefully for this reason.

I am sure that Liz probably has good research into the whole use of tropes and how they help sell books. I can't think of any other reason they would be so focused on them. It has to be a business reason, hasn't it?

As Le Mole said, it was a business decision. There's a big difference between category romance and single-title, and those differences are difficult for authors who aren't familiar with - or fans of - the specific expectations of rabid category romance readers. We've done extensive research both within and outside of Entangled, and like any successful business, have developed our own formula that works for our readership. It's not for everyone, but if an author wants to write for a specific imprint at a specific publisher, they'll likely be faced with that publisher's own research and preferences.

If category romance isn't for a particular author, we publish single-title romance as well, and those aren't trope-driven.

'Why is there still no system in place for solid release dates so authors can organise their publicity?'

The answer to this lies in our business strategy. We place more emphasis on responding to market conditions than arbitrary release dates, unlike many other publishers. The reasons we move release dates are varied, and almost always market-related, e.g. pairing up authors that we're able to market together more effectively, pairing up similar concepts and/or tropes so we can create a marketing plan around that concept and/or trope, and moving books to capitalize on specific advertising venues that weren't available when the book was initially scheduled to release.

In addition, since we attract so many prolific and high-profile authors, we are continuously juggling self publishing and other publisher-related release dates around our own. Add in books that don't meet deadlines, author and editor pairings that aren't as effective as we'd hoped, and a desire to make every book the best it can be, and you've just increased the degree of difficulty of hitting specific dates tenfold.

To combat the frustrations of fluid release dates, Entangled picks up the majority of publicity for our authors. While it's wonderful to hear that some authors want to plan out complex marketing plans of their own, it's unnecessary. We've created marketing strategies that work with a flexible release schedule to maximize everyone's opportunities.

That said, we absolutely could just set dates and hit them, but we wouldn't be as successful as we are, nor would we be putting the author's eventual financial gain first.

'Why, a year after you promised it would not happen anymore, are authors still being required to rewrite their books after QA?'

QAs are an internal evaluation to ensure that our authors receive only the best editorial advice. With a freelance editorial staff, there is no other way to know an author has been well-served until after the book releases, at which point nothing can be done.

From time to time, an author ends up paired with an editor who isn't the best match for that particular book's issues, and the QA process reveals the mismatch. While it's frustrating for both the author and editor, it's still in the author's best interest to produce the best book possible. This has been true of both new and experienced editors, since every book warrants different editorial skill sets.

The QA system, while flawed from time to time, works, and because of our attention to detail, we've launched some of the biggest names in the industry. We hope authors can rest easier knowing we take such care to ensure every book receives the best chance possible to become a bestseller.

'We have been promised a number of times over the years that you will learn from your mistakes and absolutely nothing has changed. Why should we believe you now?'

While we may disagree that "absolutely nothing" has changed, there is no answer to this question. Whether you choose to believe anything anyone says is ultimately your call. We'll continue striving to be the best publisher we can be in the meantime!

I hope this answers your questions!
 
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Cathy C

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Could someone explain what a "QA" is? I'm not familiar with the abbreviation. Some possibilities:

Question & Answer?
Quality Assurance?
Questionable Assistance?

It's being bandied about but I can't find it discussed in the thread. Thanks.