Average word count for a fantasy novel?

Mr Flibble

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Proving the rule. By the time the longer ones came about, she had a massive fan base already. To get pubbed (in MG where things are different) her first books needed to be shorter

Brandon Sanderson might be a better example.

Anyway, yes it IS possible to get pubbed with a long first novel. It's just that extra bit harder (unless the genre calls for longer books -- epic frex, more likely to be OK with a longer count, But the words still need to count).
 
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Hapax Legomenon

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This makes me wonder, would 80k be better to shoot for than 100k for a sci fi novel?
 

waylander

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I was told a few years ago by a UK publishing director that the ideal wordcount for a debut contemporary fantasy novel was 90-100k. I brought mine in at 92k and they still didn't buy it.
 

Laer Carroll

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Baen books is one of the top midsize publishing houses, putting out 75 titles last year, of which 40 were new titles. Here is what they say on their submission page.

"Preferred length: 100,000 - 130,000 words. Generally we are uncomfortable with manuscripts under 100,000 words, but if your novel is really wonderful send it along regardless of length."

This is typical in the sci-fi/fantasy world.
 

Roxxsmom

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Hard to get exact data, but fantasy novels have much longer average page counts than most other genres, though the amount varies within different fantasy subgenres. Epic is the longest, with debut word counts of over 150k words being pretty common (from my own recent digging around and ferreting out the page counts of recent debut). However, this doesn't mean that agents and editors are thrilled to get submissions for 150k or more word epic fantasies from unknowns. Epic is a notoriously hard subgenre to break into, and if you're subbing something long, it had better be darned good. I was pitching my fantasy novel at a writing conference recently (it's 120k words), and when I mentioned the page count, the agent looked worried and asked me to repeat it. When I did, she looked relieved and said, "Thank God, I thought you said 200,000 words the first time." She seemed to think 120k words was fine, though.

One problem is that the number of trade publishers that take fantasy novels with page counts much in excess of 120k are pretty small (mostly subsidiaries of the big 5), so if an agent gets even a really good epic novel that doesn't fit with what Tor, Orbit, DAW etc. are looking for at the moment, he or she is limited in terms of where else it can be sent.

The reason for this is that longer novels have a lower profit margin (due to the costs of editing, printing and shipping longer books as calibrated against what people will pay for a novel). Big presses can possibly get higher sales volumes to recoup these losses, but a smaller or mid-sized press is unlikely to sell more than a few thousand books.

My hunch is that if you want to break into epic fantasy, having a really good and tightly written manuscript that feels complex and epic, but that doesn't go too far over 120k words, could be quite helpful.

Though some fans of epic fantasy don't like shorter books and won't even look at them. It is a bit of a catch 22.
 
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WhitePawn

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Found this for recent counts.

King Killer Chronicles - Patrick Rothfuss
Name of the Wind - 259,000

Night Angel trilogy - Brent Weeks
Way of Shadows: 156k

Gentleman Bastards - Scott Lynch
The Lies of Locke Lamora: 190k

Stormlight Archives - Brandon Sanderson
The Way of Kings: 387k
Elantris: ~200k (first published work)


Of note, mentioned in Sanderson's podcast. He apparently met the agent at a convention and then sent in the Elantris MS on request, where it sat for an entire year before the agent got around to reading it. The authors on the podcast claimed the delay was likely due to the MS length, and believed the MS getting read at all was likely due to the meet/greet + request for the MS obligation made at the convention. The authors flat out stated 150k as the better cap for an unpublished epic fantasy author.

I think the 150k cap is crap, given what I like to read (and what I send back unread), but there it is.
 

ckmartin

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My advice would be to write as long as it needs to be for the first draft in order to tell the story, then edit down ruthlessly. Even take out the bits that are written well and you love if they don't actually move things forward. It hurts to do, but that's easier than trying to focus more on the future publishing than the current act of writing IMO.
 

waylander

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My advice would be to write as long as it needs to be for the first draft in order to tell the story, then edit down ruthlessly. Even take out the bits that are written well and you love if they don't actually move things forward. It hurts to do, but that's easier than trying to focus more on the future publishing than the current act of writing IMO.

I agree wholeheartedly with this advice
 

robjvargas

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Hard to get exact data, but fantasy novels have much longer average page counts than most other genres, though the amount varies within different fantasy subgenres. Epic is the longest, with debut word counts of over 150k words being pretty common (from my own recent digging around and ferreting out the page counts of recent debut). However, this doesn't mean that agents and editors are thrilled to get submissions for 150k or more word epic fantasies from unknowns. Epic is a notoriously hard subgenre to break into, and if you're subbing something long, it had better be darned good. I was pitching my fantasy novel at a writing conference recently (it's 120k words), and when I mentioned the page count, the agent looked worried and asked me to repeat it. When I did, she looked relieved and said, "Thank God, I thought you said 200,000 words the first time." She seemed to think 120k words was fine, though.

One problem is that the number of trade publishers that take fantasy novels with page counts much in excess of 120k are pretty small (mostly subsidiaries of the big 5), so if an agent gets even a really good epic novel that doesn't fit with what Tor, Orbit, DAW etc. are looking for at the moment, he or she is limited in terms of where else it can be sent.

The reason for this is that longer novels have a lower profit margin (due to the costs of editing, printing and shipping longer books as calibrated against what people will pay for a novel). Big presses can possibly get higher sales volumes to recoup these losses, but a smaller or mid-sized press is unlikely to sell more than a few thousand books.

My hunch is that if you want to break into epic fantasy, having a really good and tightly written manuscript that feels complex and epic, but that doesn't go too far over 120k words, could be quite helpful.

Though some fans of epic fantasy don't like shorter books and won't even look at them. It is a bit of a catch 22.

Well... I'd like to point out that 100K isn't short, really. Except on a relative scale (i.e. epic fantasy). I personally haven't seen much good "epic-ness" under that size. Maybe Ringworld? I classify that as fantasy because, even though the technology is ever-present, the story isn't really *about* the technology. Know what I mean?

Anyway, Science Fiction and Fantasy do seem to expect somewhat longer works. But I'd reconsider submitting a work over 130K, and I, personally, won't let myself get to 150K. I'll split the work in twain first.
 

Ken Horn

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This was a great thread I'd been puzzling over how large a word count to cap myself with though of course the story comes first but was certainly useful information to use as a tool when I get through with the first draft and begin the editing process thanks much to all the posters