Tracking Amazon Kindle Top 100 Paid Ebook by genre[Big 5 Pub/ Amazon Pub/ small-medium Pub/self-pub]

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BenPanced

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Why do people keep attaching me to the OP?
I'm not seeing this happen. People are addressing you and the OP separately; in fact, a few have even mused if the OP is going to bother coming back and address the points they'd made, rather than doing a hit-and-run post (and judging from their number of posts, there's a good chance this is the case.)
 
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Little Ming

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-people in these threads have said ebook success doesn't matter because of paper.

People have pointed out that print books are still a significant part of the market, therefore trying to draw long-term conclusions about the whole of the publishing industry based on only a fraction of the data from a fraction of the market, is not wise.

-people in these threads have said SP ebook success doesn't actually exist.

Please cite.

Why do people keep attaching me to the OP?

...

Seriously. Stop taking your frustration toward the OP and posters like him/her out on me.

I have not "attached you to the OP." In fact, I have very clearly stated that the OP has not returned to engage in any meaningful conversation.

I did, however, point out that I believe you have correctly articulated the spirit in which these threads were started.
 

Ava Glass

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People have pointed out that print books are still a significant part of the market, therefore trying to draw long-term conclusions about the whole of the publishing industry based on only a fraction of the data from a fraction of the market, is not wise.

Except I never did this. In actuality, I kept repeating "let's set aside the claims of the OP." All I said is that ebook success is an accomplishment in-and-of-itself. I asked people to refrain from acting like it isn't just to counter someone's claims about the market as a whole.


Please cite.

I don't know if the mods would like that, although the thread isn't locked.



I did, however, point out that I believe you have correctly articulated the spirit in which these threads were started.

I think you're not understanding what I'm saying. I simply tried to remind people to have some respect for SPers and their accomplishments in ebooks.
 
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evilrooster

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I simply tried to remind people to have some respect for SPers and their accomplishments in ebooks.

Please be aware that if you feel that a post is inappropriate -- particularly if it breaks the requirement to respect your fellow writer, you should feel free to report it using the little red triangle with an exclamation point.
 

Little Ming

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Except I never did this. In actuality, I kept repeating "let's set aside the claims of the OP." All I said is that ebook success is an accomplishment in-and-of-itself. I asked people to refrain from acting like it isn't just to counter someone's claims about the market as a whole.

I don't know if the mods would like that, although the thread isn't locked.

I think you're not understanding what I'm saying. I simply tried to remind people to have some respect for SPers and their accomplishments in ebooks.

What if we all stipulate that e-book success is an accomplishment and we do respect self-publishers and their accomplishments?

I think that's something everyone reading this thread can agree to, yes?
 

Ava Glass

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What if we all stipulate that e-book success is an accomplishment and we do respect self-publishers and their accomplishments?

I think that's something everyone reading this thread can agree to, yes?

Also, it would be nice for posters to remember that if someone--even a post-and-split type--makes claims about ebooks and only ebooks, that a "yeah, but paper" counter-argument isn't fair.
 

Kylabelle

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Ava, we do have respect for self published authors. I know I do and far as I know everyone else in this thread does also.

That has never been at issue.

What's been said in many ways is that many of us are really tired of the wrangling between self publishing "advocates" and everyone else. And we're also a bit weary of drive by thread-starters who drop statistics and then leave (and everyone knows you yourself did not do that.)

As mentioned, please do use the "report post" button in the little triangle, if you feel a post is out of line.
 

slhuang

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Hmm. It seems like (and I say this non-judgmentally) we're talking past each other and more about our assumptions coming into these threads than about the information itself (and I include myself in that :D).

Ava, it sounds like you've seen more places where people dump on SPers and their success, so you expect that's what people are thinking here (and it's totally understandable to me that you'd be mad about that -- it would make my blood boil too!), whereas Little Ming and I have seen more places where SPers try to drag trade published authors through the mud via irrelevant statistics, so that's what we assume (and react against). I mean, if we're coming from vastly different contexts it makes sense that we'd make different assumptions. :)

Sounds like we're all sorta on the same page though: that we respect SPers and think it's cool that's a choice now, but we also respect trade-published authors and think pursuing that option is cool too. Yeah?
 
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Hoplite

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If the following information is accurate, it will have huge implications for the publishing industry, authors and readers. For instance:

Will the overabundance of ebooks make it harder for readers to find books to read?

Will the low prices put pressure on publishers, particularly on romance publishers like Harlequin and Kensington?

Will this put pressure on the Big 5 Publishers to increase their ebook royalties rate to retain talents?

[Bold mine for emphasis]

Also, it would be nice for posters to remember that if someone--even a post-and-split type--makes claims about ebooks and only ebooks, that a "yeah, but paper" counter-argument isn't fair.

Why not?

The OP started the discussion with regards to the entire publishing industry. They also mention publishers, notably "the Big 5", that publish ebook and trade boook. If we're going to have a discussion on ebooks from major publishers, and how they'll respond to ebook sales, it seems reasonable to take into account the related and other revenue stream of publishers: trade (aka paper) publishing.

As an example:
If ebooks make up a small portion of a publisher's sales, I don't see it having "huge implications for the publishing industry", because paper is still doing strong.
 

Kylabelle

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Hi folks. I have closed the thread, but only temporarily. I feel there is potential here for some movement toward mutual understanding, and I also feel we could all use a step away to consider how we really feel about RYFW in this context.

There is as we all know a ton of history and butthurt attached to all these issues. I don't think we can expect to unpack all that easily or swiftly. I feel for the most part we've done well in this thread and better than in other instances, keeping civil and respecting differences.

I also feel we all need a break. I don't want to cut anyone off midstream, but I'd like us all to take a breath and start fresh with the chance of some added perspective.

Not to speak for anyone else, but if I were Ava, I might feel a bit ganged up on, and I'd like us to try to back off from the contentious tone here. It isn't helpful to anyone, IMO. We've had a chance to get our frustrations fairly stated; let's try to move on from that when we revisit this thread, sometime tomorrow.

Thanks everyone for your fairness and restraint in working through a highly charged issue. You all rock! I am always available via PM, too, if you feel unfairly represented here.

I'll open us up again sometime tomorrow.
 

Kylabelle

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Okay, I'm going to open this again in case there is more to say on the subjects of how we compare various publishing avenues, and what we can derive from sales data of various kinds.

That is the topic of the thread, far as I can determine. The actual topic tends to get lost in the expressions of displeasure that others aren't seeming to be fair, or aren't seeing things the way we do. At least, that's where I think the topic gets lost.

Lets see where we get to this time. Please, no sarcasm and hold the snark on a tight leash. I know lots of people enjoy that sort of thing but when emotions are high, it's not helpful to express yourself that way. You can always go down to the Rant To Your Heart's Content thread, and let 'er rip there. (As long as you don't specifically rip other folks. :D )

And if this thread is played out, I'm sure another will come along in due time.

Thanks for your patience.
 

Samsonet

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So, I'm a clueless teenager who knows very little about publishing. Can someone explain to me how the bestseller lists are decided? Not the Amazon ones, I mean things like the New York Times and the other newspaper lists. If it's by number sold, why don't the lists match up? Is it true they don't list self-published books?

Thank you
 

Old Hack

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So, I'm a clueless teenager who knows very little about publishing. Can someone explain to me how the bestseller lists are decided? Not the Amazon ones, I mean things like the New York Times and the other newspaper lists. If it's by number sold, why don't the lists match up? Is it true they don't list self-published books?

Thank you

Different lists don't match up because they are compiled from different sources.

In the UK, the main best-seller lists are compiled from data collected by Nielsen Bookscan. I believe this takes sales from various bookshops and retailers across the country: not all of them, because that would be impossible to manage. Waterstones (the main chain bookshop here) runs its own best-seller lists. I'm pretty sure the big supermarkets run their own too; and there are various category-led lists, too, such as the best-selling hardbacks, best non-fiction, and so on.

Self published books don't often get included in these retail-based lists because self published books don't often have a nationwide presence in physical bookshops: even if the self publisher produces a print edition it's next to impossible to get a distributor to take it on, which means it's not going to get into bookshops nationwide.

Amazon's lists include sales of digital books, and the majority of self published books are in digital format; and so Amazon's lists are more likely to include self-published titles.

ETA: And you're not clueless. You are clued-up enough to ask questions. That's good. So there!
 
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gingerwoman

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So, I'm a clueless teenager who knows very little about publishing. Can someone explain to me how the bestseller lists are decided? Not the Amazon ones, I mean things like the New York Times and the other newspaper lists. If it's by number sold, why don't the lists match up? Is it true they don't list self-published books?

Thank you
I used to be confused, why for example, the third book in a series was often the one to hit the NYT list I thought "but wouldn't people have read books one and two, how can the third book so often make the list. "

I believe now, it's because a lot of books have to be sold in one week. It's not books sold overall, over a long time as people imagine.

So for example, my publisher has several books where it was the third book in a series that hit the NYT list, and that is because a lot of people were excited for that third book, after they read the first two, and all ran out and bought the third one in it's actual week of release. That's why the third book hit the list and not the first two.

I also learned that a book is not eligible unless it is sold more than one place, so a book only sold on Amazon could not make the list. But many self published books have hit the NYT list..

I read that books with Kindle select can not hit the list because they have to be sold from more outlets than just Amazon alone. But self published books that were sold (for example) both through Amazon and Smashwords have hit the list.

You can see on this list where HM Ward has hit the ebook list with her self published book THE ARRANGEMENT http://www.nytimes.com/best-sellers-books/2014-07-06/e-book-fiction/list.html
 
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Old Hack

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I used to be confused why for example the third book in a series was often the one to hit the NYT list I thought "but wouldn't people have read books one and two, how can the third book so often make the list. "

I believe now it's because a lot of books have to be sold in one week. It's not books sold overall, over a long time as people imagine.http://www.nytimes.com/best-sellers-books/2014-07-06/e-book-fiction/list.html

Yep--best sellers lists usually only feature books sold during the week concerned. They're rarely cumulative, apart from the year-end ones.
 

Kylabelle

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I believe it's not only the source of data but also how the data is collected and assembled which makes the various lists not tally. I'm reminded of all those plastic kitchen tubs which have lids that will ONLY fit that tub, and not the other one that looks almost the same and holds the same amount of stuff. Grrrr..

Well, maybe not. :D But yeah, there are so very many reasons such lists come up with different results. Someone could probably write a whole book, about bestseller lists. (Maybe someone already has!)
 

RedWombat

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Also worth noting that some of the best seller lists only calculate from sales in bookstores, and not supermarkets. If you're a wildly popular author who sells at Wal-Mart, you may get a nice royalty check but never see the upper reaches of the best seller lists.

(This is not malice, so far as I am aware, but difficulties of data collection at work.)
 

LindaJeanne

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-people in these threads have said ebook success doesn't matter because of paper.

-people in these threads have said SP ebook success doesn't actually exist.
I don't think that I've ever seen either of these claims made on AW, so I must have missed these threads. Can you provide a citation?


I did ONCE see someone here claim that a self-published writer didn't count as a real author. He got jumped on by multiple people, and the mod gave him a vacation for breaking the "respect your fellow writer" rule.

I'm suspicious that part of the confusion of this discussion is coming from you thinking that others in this thread are thinking things they aren't thinking, and responding to what you think they're thinking, which isn't what they are thinking, so they aren't sure what you're thinking when you make the arguments. And since we're not clear what you're thinking, we probably think you're thinking things you're not thinking.

So, rather than a vague "people in 'these threads' say something to such-and-such effect", it would be more helpful if you could point to a specific post that voices the opinions that you are trying to challenge.
 

Kylabelle

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I'm suspicious that part of the confusion of this discussion is coming from you thinking that others in this thread are thinking things they aren't thinking, and responding to what you think they're thinking, which isn't what they are thinking, so they aren't sure what you're thinking when you make the arguments. And since we're not clear what you're thinking, we probably think you're thinking things you're not thinking.

So, rather than a vague "people in 'these threads' say something to such-and-such effect", it would be more helpful if you could point to a specific post that voices the opinions that you are trying to challenge.

Having not yet finished my coffee, I got a little lost in all those "thinkings". :D

But I agree with the two points I (think I) see here: One, it's really critical in heated discussions to be certain you are correctly reading what was posted by your contender(s) -- and that's so for all of us, by the way, not only any single individual. And if you aren't certain, it's real good to ask for clarification. (Sarcasm, by the way, makes all this much harder to do.)

Two, citations are always very useful and even more useful when the conversation is emotionally charged.
 

Little Ming

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I proposed up-thread that we just all just generally agree that:

1) e-book success is an accomplishment and

2) we do respect self-publishers and their accomplishments.

Because, at least for me, I don't see the point of repeating that someone, somewhere, said something I disagreed with. There will always be "people wrong on internet." You're never going to get 100% agreement on anything. Anything.

Unless you want to keep old disagreements going forever, I would rather stipulate that we all generally agree on a few concepts and move on with the conversation.
 

bearilou

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I'd like to see people stop saying 'well we all know that ##% of self published books are crap' and then when called on it, defending it with 'well, ##% of anything is crap'.

That may very well be the case. But it's solving nothing, saying nothing, proving nothing. Yes. There are some self-published books that are crap. There are some trade published books that are crap. So what? What is being proven by constantly pointing that out? What is being gained by constantly beating on that?

Why don't we move past that and talk about the things that are important in the discussion.
 

WeaselFire

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Why do some posters here like to dismiss the Kindle bestseller lists?
Because Amazon figures are not validated by independent industry standards. Since Amazon routinely changes it's algorithms to generate more income for Amazon (not complaining about it, they're a profit-making organization), the best seller lists are also manipulated. It's suspected by many that Amazon also manipulates the genre classifications.

Amazon also does not disclose how it determines sales figures. Does a free give away count as a sale? If so, a "top-selling" book could be a bottom-earning book. So sales numbers don't equate to sales dollars.

Lastly, Amazon figures don't represent a lot of books. Many over seas sales can't be through Amazon, they don't exist in those areas like the iBooks do.

But the real issue, for me, is that Amazon keeps changing its methods. So there's no way to compare, legitimately, sales ranking over time. What sold 100,000 copies last month and was #1 may sell 200,000 copies this month and be #42 because of changes in Amazon's methods.

Jeff
 

aruna

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Amazon also does not disclose how it determines sales figures. Does a free give away count as a sale? If so, a "top-selling" book could be a bottom-earning book. So sales numbers don't equate to sales dollars.

Quick answer to that: no. There are two lists, Kindle Paid and Kindle Free. They are separate. All the books in the category best-seller lists have prices, starting with 0.99.
 

veinglory

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Indeed. Ebooks have the option of pushing the prices down lower so there is more of a trade off between sales volume and profits. But their charts are pretty clearly ranked by sales on Amazon in that format. You don't get in the top 100 without doing some serious volume.
 
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