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The Most Annoying Bit of Feedback

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NateSean

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I know this is a tricky subject. When I post something for critique (haven't done that here yet) I never want to seem like I'm not receptive to someone's criticism or input. But there are times when even allegedly published writes give advice that makes me go, what story were you reading exactly?

For my part, the most annoying bit of advice was something I'd call a lost in translation moment. A person who had been paid for a short story read my work at my request. I appreciated his time but after reading some of his critiques it was clear to me that he wasn't that experienced.

For example, the story I had written was in first person and we, the reader, did not know what was going on until the main character did. This is not new, but the reviewer kept acting like I should have somehow told readers everything that was going on in the first paragraph. You know, info dumping.

The kicker however, was when one of the characters in my story answers a question as to how he died. He says, "It might have been the Buick or the heroin. There was a place along the highway where I went to shoot up."

The reviewer gave me this comment and I remember it clearly ten years later. "You might want to clarify that bit. I very much doubt he (the character) went somewhere to teleport."

I realize "shooting up" might not mean the same thing in other countries, or that people not familiar with terms related to drug use might not understand that particular phrase. But it still kind of annoyed me, because the fact that the reader didn't understand it was no more my fault than if an American reading a story written by an English person didn't understand that a pound was currency.
 
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Lillith1991

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I think you'll like the SYW section here then. People comment on what's there instead of what they wish was there. Sometimes they give tips on how to get part of the narritive across better by rewriting a sentence the way it makes more sense to them as a reader. But when they do, it fits the story. And your free to adapt it if you choose. I haven't seen them doing anything particularly wtf story are you reading yet.

I'm sure I will at some point, see someone do that. But for now I haven't.

PS.I live a couple towns over from you in Lynn.
 

SkyeScribble

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One of my writer friends (disclosure: a fourteen year old girl, and we go to high school in an extremely small town) was reading the first chapter of my novel. The main character was "camping" in the front lawn of a church near his college. I explicitly say he's not drunk because this is important for his character, and that he did it out of sheer boredom with his current life.

My friend immediately got this sour look on her face. She said it didn't sound realistic that someone would sleep on a church lawn if he wasn't drunk. My other friend argued that indeed, in college towns where we both had lived, people would do strange things for no good reason, much stranger than this.

She also had problems with the things I had the daughter character do, like drink her father's wine out of spite for him leaving her home alone. She couldn't see why anyone would do this...

I love church folk, and small towners, but she's in for a shock if she ever moves out of this place.

(This isn't to say small town folk don't do "strange" things. Here at least though, it's easy to avoid.)
 
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zanzjan

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Keep in mind that writing and critiquing are different skills. Certainly as one becomes better at writing (which can, but isn't always, indicated by sales) one should have a better critical eye as a reader, but it doesn't always work that way.

Also, every reader, whether they are a writer or not, are reading every story through the filter of their own expectations, experiences, and tastes. So, even if advice is totally not useful in the slightest, if it's genuinely meant, I'd be hard-pressed to find it the "most annoying". That dubious title would be reserved, IME, for those critiquers who believe that the main goal of giving feedback is to display their own cleverness and wit at being mean.
 

virtue_summer

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Keep in mind that writing and critiquing are different skills. Certainly as one becomes better at writing (which can, but isn't always, indicated by sales) one should have a better critical eye as a reader, but it doesn't always work that way.

Also, every reader, whether they are a writer or not, are reading every story through the filter of their own expectations, experiences, and tastes. So, even if advice is totally not useful in the slightest, if it's genuinely meant, I'd be hard-pressed to find it the "most annoying". That dubious title would be reserved, IME, for those critiquers who believe that the main goal of giving feedback is to display their own cleverness and wit at being mean.
This. Personally, there are patterns in feedback that annoys me. These are the two most common:
* It's something I would be served well to look at, but I don't want to, often because admitting it means I have a problem I don't have a ready solution to (a story problem that requires major brainstorming and rewriting to fix rather than just correcting a comma).
* It's an indication that I've given my work to the wrong reader. The wrong reader has nothing to do with the number of works they've had published. It usually has to do with that reader not being overly familiar with the genre. For instance, if you give a short story to someone who only reads novels don't be surprised to hear it's too short. If you give your science fiction novel to someone who doesn't read that genre, don't be surprised if they don't understand common science fiction tropes and terms. I think the life experience kind of thing also comes in here. If your reader just really can't seem to put themselves in the place of a particular character who's making decisions the reader wouldn't make, pay attention to it if the reader and the character are supposed to be in sync. Otherwise take it as an indication that maybe, again, this reader isn't your intended audience.
 

kuwisdelu

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I think the life experience kind of thing also comes in here. If your reader just really can't seem to put themselves in the place of a particular character who's making decisions the reader wouldn't make, pay attention to it if the reader and the character are supposed to be in sync. Otherwise take it as an indication that maybe, again, this reader isn't your intended audience.

This is the main one for me, too.

It's often either experience or cultural differences.

And then there are those who just clearly didn't bother to read closely (as evidenced by contrast to others who did).
 
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rwm4768

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Feedback that gets sarcastic. It's useless, especially when they start commenting on things that aren't there, and it only serves to make the writer feel bad.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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I am very confused by your reader's comments. To my knowledge there are pretty much three definitions of "shoot up" -- 1) inject drugs 2) riddle with bullets or 3) increase rapidly. "Teleport" has nothing to do with any of those -- and moreso, teleporting isn't a thing that you can actually do in real life, so it's not going to have a simple, common use, phrasal verb like "shoot up".

If this person was neither a time traveler nor an extremely innocent sci-fi geek I would question their reading comprehension.
 

Roxxsmom

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Sometimes you get bad feedback. I write fantasy, and I've had occasional feedback from people who obviously aren't familiar with some of the things most fantasy readers would know (like what pauldrons are, or what it means to nock an arrow). I've also gotten comments from people who don't know a word that is not, to me, particularly obscure in meaning, and which does not have a substitute. I had a scene where someone was leaning against the parapet of a bridge, and the reader had no idea what the word meant and couldn't figure it out from the context. When I asked her what she called the raised ledge or wall on the side of a stone bridge, she had no suggestion.

I remember being frustrated once when someone read my opening chapter, which was written in limited third, and tried to get me to change all the wording so it would read like omniscient. It made me wonder if there was something in the way it was written that made that person think I was shooting for omni pov, but there really wasn't (none of the other commenters had any trouble with understanding it was limited third or thought I should switch the novel to omni). It may have just been that person's preference.

So that's maybe the thing I've learned the most from getting occasional "off" crits--humility. I consider if they have a point or if there's a reason they're reading the thing the way they are. If I think they're wrong, that's fine, but I still thank them for their input (unless they're being obviously rude or snarky, I suppose). And next time I crit something, I consider the possibility that I might be misreading something in that work or expressing an opinion as if it were a fact.
 
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shadowwalker

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I've beta'd stuff in genres I wasn't familiar with - always added the caveat "If I mention something that's common for the genre, ignore me". Seemed to work. (Most of the critiques had to do with flow, phrasing, characterization, etc and not with genre-specific stuff anyway)
 
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Filigree

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I usually try to make sure my beta readers/critique partners know my genre. There's no point in it, otherwise. While I'm certain non-genre readers might stumble into my work, they are not my core readership. I don't write for them.

Even in-genre, I've seen some weird reactions. On one popular logline forum, known for its emphasis on YA works, numerous readers read the first 250 words of my fantasy post and decided 'fur + paws + sentience' must equal 'werewolf'. Even though I'd tried to clearly set up this was a secondary world with an alien protagonist.

You never know how readers are going to react.
 

jjdebenedictis

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It should have been the most annoying criticism I got, but instead it was a bit appalling and very, very funny.

I had a critique from someone who didn't know how to use apostrophes correctly. And she was trying to correct me on the usage. She actually said something to the effect of, 'You can't say "Laura's hand" because you don't mean "Laura is hand".'

I mean, how do you respond to something like that? Thank goodness all the communication was taking place over the internet. I thanked her kindly, then went back to making my :Wha: face.
 

Roxxsmom

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Another example of a critter who evidently never reads published fiction. That's the sort of misconception that reading one novel (or heck, even one kid's book) would lay to rest.

I suppose it can be handy to get some feedback outside your usual genre readers, though. I participate on another critting site where we post chapters of our novels (or share short stories) in a pw protected forum. It's like share your work here, but the system allows you to link multiple chapters together so people can read more of your work. But fantasy is a broad genre, so sometimes you get members offering feedback who preferentially read and write a different style of fantasy. Like in share your work, you have to take the crits as they come.

One of my best critters, as it turns out, is someone who usually prefers to read and write magical realism or urban/contemporary, but he loves my stuff (but can still take mistakes and issues firmly to task when he runs into them). It can be useful to consider the assumptions we have about our audiences, because who doesn't dream of being a "gateway" drug writer who pulls readers into your preferred genre or subgenre?

When you share your work on writing sites, you're going to get some crits that don't really make sense. Learn what you can, and move on :)

I am curious about the etiquette involved in correcting someone who gives advice that's blatantly wrong, like in jjbenidictus's post above, or say, someone who incorrectly identifies any use of a "to be" verb as passive voice etc. Generally, I thank people for their crits, even if I don't agree, but if someone is giving advice that's not simply a matter of opinion and is potentially harmful to less experienced writers, then is it acceptable to say (gently): "Thanks for your feedback, and I appreciate the effort you put into this, but actually, possessives work like this..."?

Or to ask for clarification, like: "It sounds like you want me to put it in omniscient, but I'm shooting for limited third. Is there a reason why you think the story would work better in a different pov?"
 
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shadowwalker

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I usually try to make sure my beta readers/critique partners know my genre. There's no point in it, otherwise.

Well, there is a point to it, because writing is writing, regardless of genre. If the phrasing is awkward, or the character suddenly does something that seems out of character, you don't have to know the genre to see it and point it out.
 

cornflake

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It should have been the most annoying criticism I got, but instead it was a bit appalling and very, very funny.

I had a critique from someone who didn't know how to use apostrophes correctly. And she was trying to correct me on the usage. She actually said something to the effect of, 'You can't say "Laura's hand" because you don't mean "Laura is hand".'

I mean, how do you respond to something like that? Thank goodness all the communication was taking place over the internet. I thanked her kindly, then went back to making my :Wha: face.

I once ended up dropping a class because the professor handed back the first paper covered - I mean so covered it was hard to see the type - in red ink. He'd "corrected" almost nothing but grammar. He had actually turned most of the grammar from correct to incorrect. I was beyond baffled, so went to discuss why, for instance, he wanted a sentence to have subject-verb disagreement.

I'm not kidding. He'd marked up everything from mundane to complex sentences in the most incomprehensible ways possible, like changing, "when the research has shown X, researchers have concluded...," to "when it shows, they concluded..."

He explained he felt the content was ok, but he was trying to improve my writing. I chose one of the more blatant inserted errors and explained how my version had been grammatically correct, and his was kind of the exact opposite of that. I tried to get this point across using other examples, technical terms, etc. He insisted he was correct and I needed to "fix" and resubmit the paper. I walked away, right past a line of 10 students, holding papers. A week later, when he did it again, I dropped the class, as did many other people. I have no idea, but yeah, there's nothing to say to that!

Oh, btw, this class was not a writing class, or in or from the English department at all.
 
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Hapax Legomenon

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I've done a lot of good-natured bickering with betas over about fiddly grammar and word usage and the only thing you can do is find sources. Even if someone is blatantly wrong citing a source that explains why they're wrong is the best way to deal with it.
 

ap123

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It's often either experience or cultural differences.

This can also be a good thing. I gave my most recent manuscript to a beta reader who didn't understand a passage/exchange because of different racial/cultural experiences. It hadn't occurred to me that everyone wouldn't understand the inference. I didn't have to remove the passage, just tweak it to be more readily understood by a broader audience.

And then there are those who just clearly didn't bother to read closely (as evidenced by contrast to others who did).
Also true.

OP, I think shooting up is clear to the vast majority. :)
 

veinglory

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To me it is simple. It is my story. If the critique is not helping me I am grateful for the effort but I just ignore it. I don't really find it annoying, generally. The critique is the best sort of gift, you only need to take it if you want it.
 

Roxxsmom

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Related to the OPs critter who didn't get the drug reference for shooting up, I had a reader once who didn't know what "the shakes" are. He was a good reader overall, just a bit naive about drug terminology. Maybe not a bad thing.
 

scifi_boy2002

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To me it is simple. It is my story. If the critique is not helping me I am grateful for the effort but I just ignore it. I don't really find it annoying, generally. The critique is the best sort of gift, you only need to take it if you want it.


Great point!
 

mailtime

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LOL, this is kinda what makes me hesitant to really crit people. Other than grammar, if a sentence makes any sense, POV consistency, filtering, I got nothing. I'll look closely at how many words are in a sentence, repetitiveness at the beginning of several sentences, and etc, but I'm really just trying to read the story, and as subjective as this whole thing is, who am I to say what works and what doesn't?

Furthermore, my last beta was leagues above me in writing, so I was getting all this great advice, but everything I was giving back was lame, I'm sure. lol.
 
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Sonsofthepharaohs

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The most annoying feedback I can get from someone is 'this is great - I really enjoyed it!'

I mean it's nice and everything, gives you a bit of a boost to know someone enjoys what you do, but it's not helpful. It's not giving me anything i can get my teeth into, whether I agree or disagree with it. I enjoy getting both kinds of feedback (that I agree or disagree with), because either way it's showing the reader's critical engagement, and giving me something to evaluate and analyse. If someone points out something I'd never thought of and makes me think about it... great! If I eventually decide that it's not relevant or I don't think a change is needed, it's still valuable, because it's made me evaluate another choice i'm making in my book.

So, that's why the only feedback that's annoying to me is the generic, especially the generically positive, because it's not helping me make the book better.
 

NateSean

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I am very confused by your reader's comments.

Well, I think the bulk of what annoyed me wasn't just that one thing. It's the cornerstone definitely because it's not the first time I've had someone critique a story I wrote and encounter that particular bit of "criticism".

Once in college, there was a student tutor who kept insisting that "site" as in "website" should be "cite".

With this particular crit, the reason I sought him out in the first place was because I had read his published work on a website where he had mentioned that he actually sold the story for publication. This was long before Facebook and I wasn't in college, so my options for finding people to help me with my writing were very limited. I figured, oh, someone who has been published and paid for a story must know what they're doing.

So I'll admit that my annoyance with that particular piece of criticism probably stems from my own assumptions. I was young and naïve. I did, after all, fall for one of those "We'll write the music for your song and make you a star" ads in a magazine once, so I know I wasn't perfect then and I'm probably still not perfect now.

Still, I'd be lying if I said it didn't irk me even to this day. If nothing else, it's made me more wary about who to go to for this kind of help.
 

Sonsofthepharaohs

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Once in college, there was a student tutor who kept insisting that "site" as in "website" should be "cite".

But those kinds of mistakes / incorrect advice are so so easy to clear up - you just need a dictionary. It's the subjective opinions that are more difficult to argue with, because there is no 'right' answer.

Honestly, I think you're expending too much effort being annoyed at these things, especially so many years later. Just be more selective about the people you ask for opinions, and ignore those that aren't helpful :)
 
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