Questionable Scene?

BloodSpatterAnalyst · Apr 18, 2014

I have a scene in the first chapter of my novel, (it's a horror/fantasy) and it's focused on the antagonist. He's a killer with delusions of grandeur. He wants to bring about the end of the world by breaking down the barriers separating our world from the others. (Heaven and Hell)

The thing is that within this small scene it involves the antagonist raping a victim. It's nothing too graphic and I think it's done tastefully. I think.

I don't know. Would something like this turn away possible readers? Would you stop reading a book if something like this popped up so soon?

Kerosene · Apr 18, 2014

I think this depends on how you write it. Some people will be turned off to the simple idea of rape, some to how you describe it/use it, and some to what you're using it for. You can't win at everything, just don't try to lose.

Personally, I don't care--you have to establish their the villain somehow. I'm a pretty tolerant reader for these types of things.

Chris P · Apr 18, 2014

You're never going to write such a charged scene in a way that won't turn anyone off. My questions would be if the tone and level of intensity in the scene fits those of other scenes in the book. If the rest of the book is PG-13, R, or NC-17, that scene should be too.

KarmaPolice · Apr 18, 2014

I can understand your caution - that's one hell of an opening. I had a somewhat similar problem when I had to show that a wolfwere character was really into the werewolf MC. Even though it was already 5k in and I had tried to make it decent enough, my betas read way too much into it. Perhaps you could do the following...

1) Garble it up with loads of euphemisms. I'm thinking along the same lines of how the Nazis did with the extermination of the Jews; many of the documents that survived about the Wannsee Conference (the planning sessions for it) is full of these - upto the phrase 'Final Solution' itself. You could have the evil bastard doing what I call 'corkscrew logic' (justifying the indefensible), only in the next chapter or two it's spelt out what he did.

2) Just show the planning stage. Again, uses euphemisms, though in less amounts. He sums up that he needs to do this thing, gives the reasons why, finally ending (say) with them concluding that as teens are all sluts these days, he'd have to rape a ten-year old because it had to be a virgin.

3) Have just 200-400 words of his internal monologue of his reasons why it had to be done, then just go into the 'real' first chapter where the MC learns what the evil bastard did.

GeekTells · Apr 19, 2014

Sometimes folks ask this question because they want someone else to tell them to cut something they already think they should cut. If that describes you, OP, examine your thoughts on the issue and act accordingly.

If not, write the story you want to write and worry about the scene after the book is "finished" and out to beta readers.

Some things to keep in mind:

1.) You have a 100% certainty of turning some readers off.

2.) This is true of almost anything, so be true to your story.

And GL.

slhuang · Apr 19, 2014

You should read this thread:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271819

Two things to consider:

(1) Rape is a far more personal and hurtful thing for a huge segment of your audience to see than most other types of violence, especially when it's either handled badly or used as a shorthand for "this is a bad guy." One in four women is raped in her lifetime. Most of your audience will know more than one rape victim personally (or be survivors of rape themselves, or both).

(2) Rather horrifyingly, rape has become trite. I hate the "rape as a way to show the antagonist is Evulz" not only because it's usually done badly, but because it's so overdone. It's become a cliche. This post by Chasing the Horizon from the thread I linked sums the issue up:

Chasing the Horizon said:
Rape is so overdone in fantasy that it has gone beyond sickening to actually boring for me. The last time I downloaded a couple dozen fantasy samples, no less than 25% had rape IN THE SAMPLE PAGES. Not in the entire work, in the iBooks sample. A lot of it was every bit as graphic and horrible as the OP too.

I think it's ridiculous and boring, not to mention sending a seriously questionable overall message by making rape something that hardly registers because it's so overexposed. Which isn't to say that a rape scene can never work. If you wait until the reader actually cares about the characters (meaning NOT in the first chapter) and make the scene sufficiently different (like by having a male victim) it could still be interesting and fresh. But the OP asked if his scene was overdone, and I'm answering absolutely yes. What he describes is the same dynamic I saw in most of the iBooks samples, only with a tree and extra poop. Offensive to some and not at all interesting to the rest of us.

(bold mine)

If I were you, I would find a more creative way of showing your antagonist is evil, because I suspect most of your audience will have one of the following reactions to a "kick the dog" rape scene: (1) anger, (2) eyerolling, (3) boredom.

Night_Writer · Apr 19, 2014

I'll include one more reaction:

(4) stops reading

RhodaD'Ettore · Apr 19, 2014

i have a rape scene in my Jane's Journey. It is a part of life.. as long as it isnt written as a "porn" type of thing that is supposed to arouse people.. i dont see a problem with it. it is a horrible and emotional event and brings a victim and reader to interact.

Polenth · Apr 19, 2014

I check reviews before buying books to check there's no rape. In some genres especially, it's an endless sea of books with rape scenes, so the more I read, the more it bothered me. They're terribly handled rape scenes too. Not because of how much they say or don't about the rape, but it's there as a shorthand for evil. Or to make a female character have a vulnerable moment so she'll get with the hero (and then is magically cured of all trauma related to the rape).

It's at a point where readers want to know when women main characters are going to be raped, not if, because it's just that common. And common in a way that makes it seem like no big deal and nothing lasting.

So it's spoiler reviews for me, especially if the main characters are women or gay men, as they're the ones most often raped in fiction. I also check horror very carefully, as that tends to be a bit rapetastic.

kuwisdelu · Apr 19, 2014

If you know why it has to be rape and it wouldn't work any other way, then just write it.

If you don't, keep asking yourself that until you're either confident enough to write it, or realize you need to take it out.

mccardey · Apr 19, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
If you know why it has to be rape and it wouldn't work any other way, then just write it.

If you don't, keep asking yourself that until you're either confident enough to write it, or realize you need to take it out.

This. Though, if you're asking the question, it seems that perhaps it could be dealt with some other way.

SianaBlackwood · Apr 19, 2014

Question: is this scene setting up something for the rest of the story? (E.g. is the victim a major character and the rape will affect how this character acts in the story, is the rape part of the antagonist's process for ending the world, is the antagonist a serial rapist and his crimes are an ongoing aspect of the plot...?)

This is where that 'shorthand for evil' comes in. We're talking about a scene in the first chapter. When I'm reading a first chapter, I'm making little mental notes of everything and expecting it to turn out to be important later. Throw something shocking at me and I'll expect the shock to reverberate through the entire novel.

dondomat · Apr 19, 2014

I personally would be turned off. This has nothing to do with whether your approach works or not. Off the top of my head--Richard Laymon, Dean Koontz, and James Patterson are sure to have between one and twenty books with a whacko psycho raping someone or slaughtering a family at the start of a book. I suggest not looking for people to tell you 'this works' or 'this doesn't work', without even having read it, but read the people who have already made it work, and compare your work to theirs.
In the future, I recommend this approach: always ask people who your concept/draft reminds them of--and check out those authors. Orient yourself by existing lighthouses, not ephemeral echoes.

BloodSpatterAnalyst · Apr 19, 2014

WillSauger said:
I think this depends on how you write it. Some people will be turned off to the simple idea of rape, some to how you describe it/use it, and some to what you're using it for. You can't win at everything, just don't try to lose.

Personally, I don't care--you have to establish their the villain somehow. I'm a pretty tolerant reader for these types of things.

I think it's executed very well and tastefully. Nothing too graphic except for a little violence. It's part of a little flashback when the antagonist experiences a blackout. Then it gets into where he was and what happened the first time he ever experienced one. When he comes to the first time. He's on top of a helpless bartender raping her. So, it's not like he set out to rape this woman. It was just a side effect of his blackout. The whole thing (the rape) is maybe 200 words, tops.

Chris P said:
You're never going to write such a charged scene in a way that won't turn anyone off. My questions would be if the tone and level of intensity in the scene fits those of other scenes in the book. If the rest of the book is PG-13, R, or NC-17, that scene should be too.

I would say for the most part the book would be rated R if not a strong PG-13. And it does seem to fit with the tone and intensity of the rest of the book. Horror, blood, thrills, laughs.

KarmaPolice said:
3) Have just 200-400 words of his internal monologue of his reasons why it had to be done, then just go into the 'real' first chapter where the MC learns what the evil bastard did.

The scene is part of a small flashback. The antagonist has his first blackout and comes to, raping this bartender. The act itself is at the most 200 words. And when I say it's done "tastefully" I mean I don't use any graphic words to describe what exactly happens sexually. But you can paint a very vague picture in your head when you read it.

GeekTells said:
1.) You have a 100% certainty of turning some readers off.

2.) This is true of almost anything, so be true to your story.

And GL.

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I'll keep that in mind

slhuang said:
You should read this thread:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271819

If I were you, I would find a more creative way of showing your antagonist is evil, because I suspect most of your audience will have one of the following reactions to a "kick the dog" rape scene: (1) anger, (2) eyerolling, (3) boredom.

I'll be sure to check that thread out, soon. The scene is not to show he's evil, well not really, anyway. It rather a tiny flashback of something that happened. Of course the reader gathers he's evil because of it but that's not the sole reason he did it. He suffers a blackout and "wakes up" during the crime.

Thanks for your view on it. Obviously, I'm questioning it because it is such an iffy topic.

kuwisdelu said:
If you know why it has to be rape and it wouldn't work any other way, then just write it.

I hear what you're saying. And I already have it written. Just not sure if I should keep it or not because of the tough subject matter and how people usually deal with the topic of rape.

mccardey said:
This. Though, if you're asking the question, it seems that perhaps it could be dealt with some other way.

The reason I'm asking is because no one is comfortable with the subject of rape. It's such a heinous and despicable act. I feel its done very graciously and it adds to the background of the character. It's not there just for the fun of it.

The bottom line is I don't want to have something in my book that's going to make people put it down and run away from it like some life threatening disease.

I feel like I'm retyping some of the same answers to all of you hah.

Thanks to you all, seriously for all the feedback on this.

BloodSpatterAnalyst · Apr 19, 2014

SianaBlackwood said:
Question: is this scene setting up something for the rest of the story? (E.g. is the victim a major character and the rape will affect how this character acts in the story, is the rape part of the antagonist's process for ending the world, is the antagonist a serial rapist and his crimes are an ongoing aspect of the plot...?)

This is where that 'shorthand for evil' comes in. We're talking about a scene in the first chapter. When I'm reading a first chapter, I'm making little mental notes of everything and expecting it to turn out to be important later. Throw something shocking at me and I'll expect the shock to reverberate through the entire novel.

The rape itself show's more insight into the antagonist if anything. It shows he's mentally unstable. Not only that, but the attack wasn't premeditated. He sort of wakes up during it. I think it helps better explain who he is and it resonates throughout the book.

dondomat said:
I personally would be turned off. This has nothing to do with whether your approach works or not. Off the top of my head--Richard Laymon, Dean Koontz, and James Patterson are sure to have between one and twenty books with a whacko psycho raping someone or slaughtering a family at the start of a book. I suggest not looking for people to tell you 'this works' or 'this doesn't work', without even having read it, but read the people who have already made it work, and compare your work to theirs.
In the future, I recommend this approach: always ask people who your concept/draft reminds them of--and check out those authors. Orient yourself by existing lighthouses, not ephemeral echoes.

Thanks dondomat. That is some really sound advice. It's so simple and yet, I never thought of it.

Helix · Apr 19, 2014

You might have to ask yourself why you've chosen a rape to demonstrate his mental instability and not some other heinous act. As others have mentioned, it's become short hand for evil/unstable/amoral to the point of cliche.

Also 'graciously' might not be the right word when describing how a rape scene is written

My 2c worth.

John Chambers · Apr 19, 2014

It will make a large numbers of potential readers put the book straight down. That's not debatable. But there are plenty more readers who won't. Its a bold start.

dondomat · Apr 19, 2014

BloodSpatterAnalyst said:
Thanks dondomat. That is some really sound advice. It's so simple and yet, I never thought of it.

Glad to be of help. Shaun Hutson, Tom Piccirilli, Graham Masterton, Bentley Little, John Skipp, and Edward Lee are other names which appeared with my evening coffee, as examples of legendary writers perfectly capable of pulling off a book opening like that. Good luck.

jaksen · Apr 19, 2014

You can explain it, justify it, etc., all you want. There are going to be a lot of readers who simply won't read it. (And they won't read your explanations, either.)

But having said that, it's your book. If it needs to be written, write it.

WriteMinded · Apr 19, 2014

In a horror\fantasy novel, you must surely have other disturbing scenes. Your book is bound to turn some readers off, no matter what you write. If you offend no one, your story may be boring.

BethS · Apr 19, 2014

BloodSpatterAnalyst said:
I don't know. Would something like this turn away possible readers? Would you stop reading a book if something like this popped up so soon?

You should know that there are agents who have publicly stated they will stop reading if they encounter rape in the opening pages. I imagine there are any number of readers who feel the same.

I think you need a really, really good story reason to do something like this. Context matters a lot. And probably the less graphic the better.

ETA: You say it's about 200 words. That's about 2/3 of a printed page, give or take. That's actually quite a lot of words to describe a rape, "tastefully" or otherwise.

If this rape is just to show character and the victim never appears again, I'd strongly suggest not doing it. If this particular rape will have consequences that ripple down through the story and if the victim has an actual role in the story because of it, then it might be justified.

And this raises a question: why rape, specifically? Why doesn't he wake up up in the middle of a beating or a murder?

Springs · Apr 19, 2014

It wouldn't bother me at all, but I definitely know people who would put it down and probably avoid reading you from that point on. Personally, I don't think anything should be off-limits when writing, but everything in a book should be there for a good reason. That applies to this like everything else.

If this rape is just to show character and the victim never appears again, I'd strongly suggest not doing it. If this particular rape will have consequences that ripple down through the story and if the victim has an actual role in the story because of it, then it might be justified.

I kind of agree with this in the fact that, like I said before, make it matter. However, I don't think the victim necessarily has to be an important character in the rest of the story, so long as waking up mid-rape did something significant for your antagonist's character, thoughts of himself, etc.

Bing Z · Apr 19, 2014

BloodSpatterAnalyst said:
The thing is that within this small scene it involves the antagonist raping a victim. It's nothing too graphic and I think it's done tastefully. I think.

I don't know. Would something like this turn away possible readers? Would you stop reading a book if something like this popped up so soon?

Rape can not be done tastefully. Smoking pot while spraying bullets and using hatchet to kill 256 politicians or mobsters can (be done tastefully). Eating strawberries while sawing off victims' limps and heads can.

Male here, never been raped (but have fantasized being "forced" into sex with some A-list Hollywood actresses.) Not gonna read anything where rape is depicted in more details than "He raped him/her mercilessly," opening chapter or finale.

rwm4768 · Apr 19, 2014

I'd be worried about using that in your first chapter. A lot of readers (understandably) get turned off by rape, no matter who's doing it or how it's handled. They might forgive it if it happens later, but when it's an early impression of your work, you need to make sure that that's the type of story you're telling.

Not to mention, some people might see it as a cheap way of showing how evil your antagonist is. Kind of like having them kill a cute animal.

Roxxsmom · Apr 19, 2014

rwm4768 said:
I'd be worried about using that in your first chapter. A lot of readers (understandably) get turned off by rape, no matter who's doing it or how it's handled. They might forgive it if it happens later, but when it's an early impression of your work, you need to make sure that that's the type of story you're telling.

Not to mention, some people might see it as a cheap way of showing how evil your antagonist is. Kind of like having them kill a cute animal.

This.

I'd probably put it down if the novel opened with a rape. The lack of context would be an issue. Plus, I'd wonder if the rapist was going to be the protagonist, as my default assumption is the pov in the opening chapter is the person the story is going to be about.

And as others in this thread have noted, rape is very overused in some genres, both as the go to traumatic backstory for female characters, as revenge motivator for male characters, and as a means of showing how OMG evil an antagonist is.

But--I kept reading the Thomas Covenant novel after the rape scene (and he was the protagonist). I'm not sure why. Maybe it was because it was 30 years ago, and I was younger and had encountered the trope less often at that point. And also, the act had consequences for him and the victim, and it haunted him for the rest of the trilogy. It was clearly not there simply to titillate or provide a convenient trauma.

dondomat said:
I personally would be turned off. This has nothing to do with whether your approach works or not. Off the top of my head--Richard Laymon, Dean Koontz, and James Patterson are sure to have between one and twenty books with a whacko psycho raping someone or slaughtering a family at the start of a book. I suggest not looking for people to tell you 'this works' or 'this doesn't work', without even having read it, but read the people who have already made it work, and compare your work to theirs.
In the future, I recommend this approach: always ask people who your concept/draft reminds them of--and check out those authors. Orient yourself by existing lighthouses, not ephemeral echoes.

This too. I don't read these genres, so maybe the conventions and reader expectations are different there. Or maybe the approach has been done so much by these authors that it's grown tiresome to horror/thriller readers too?

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