Ebola case in Dallas.

c.e.lawson

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From the CDC site:
From Wiki (yes, I know, but....)


So there's only enough flu vaccine available for half the US population, even though the CDC recommends everyone over the age of 6 months should get it.

Is the flu shot available, free of charge, for all US residents? My understanding is no. If you have a job that provides health insurance, yes. If you now have health insurance under the ACA, probably. If you're poor, working minimum wage or unemployed, and the $15+ it'd cost to get the shot would mean your kids don't eat for a day..... Maybe it's not so much about "not bothering" to get the shot as "not able" or, even, "not a person whose life is valued by society simply because of your socioeconomic status".

Hi, Unimportant.

Not having insurance should not prevent one from getting the vaccine, as there are programs to assist the poor, and most insurance plans pay for it.
http://www.vaccines.gov/getting/pay/index.html

My comment was addressing those who are panicked about Ebola but aren't concerned enough about a higher risk illness (influenza) to bother to get the shot. I was simply commenting on the irony. (I was on topic! ;)) And there are plenty of people who don't bother.

This is an article from Jan 2013:

Why Don't People Get The Flu Shot?


Still, despite universal recommendations by public health officials urging just about everyone over the age of six months to get vaccinated, most Americans don’t get the flu shot.

As of November, only 35 percent of American adults and 40 percent of kids had been vaccinated against the flu, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and those numbers are pretty typical for an average year. Even among pregnant women, who are a high-risk group, a recent report found that compliance rates are only about 50 percent.

The reasons why the majority of people fail to line up for flu shots, even in pandemic years, are varied, complicated and differ from person to person, experts say. Driven by misinformation, some fear that the vaccine caries risks. Others are simply lazy. Some think the flu shot is unnecessary or won’t do any good.
 

robeiae

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Doubtful. If Obama had sat in the Senate for 20 years or so bloviating and showing up on Meet the Press every Sunday his critics would have griped he had the wrong kind of experience.

Many of the people who feel/felt Obama lacked the necessary experience were concerned with the kind of experience, not the length. For them, McCain was every bit as lacking. Because all he did was sit in the Senate for 20+ years...

Sure, there are those out there being hypocritical on this, who do exactly what you are saying. But no more so than some of those who insisited/insist Obama had sufficient experience, but argued--back in the day--that George W. Bush didn't, or else that he hadn't established sufficient gravitas (which is why he needed Cheney, and why some thought Obama needed Biden).

The point is, there is a very defensible argument here, with regard to experience and Obama, one that translates easily to Dr. Murthy (and btw, this doesn't mean I agree with that argument; after all, I voted for Obama over McCain).
 

raburrell

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The point is, there is a very defensible argument here, with regard to experience and Obama, one that translates easily to Dr. Murthy (and btw, this doesn't mean I agree with that argument; after all, I voted for Obama over McCain).

As to the bolded, which is what?

In the positions he's held, has Murthy failed at any of them? Where's the evidence he'd fail at this one? For that matter, where's the evidence that Obama's supposed inexperience is behind whatever failings one sees in his presidency?

I don't see anything other than partisanship at play here. At least I'm open about mine. :Shrug:
 

waylander

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My understanding of the flu vaccine, in the UK at least, is that it is targeted against the epidemiologists' best guess at what this year's flu is going to be. I've just had my jab and this year's flu hasn't yet emerged over here (maybe we won't get one) so no-one knows how effective the vaccine will be. It could be useless.
 

robeiae

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As to the bolded, which is what?
That high level positions of this sort--leadership ones--in the government require direct experience of a similar nature. I don't know why that's such a hard thing to process.

The counter--that skills, intelligence and the like trump any perceived lackings in leadership--is equally valid. It's an argument to be had and people can disagree--imo--in this regard.

Me, I don't know enough about Murthy and really the office of Surgeon General to absolutely hold a position here. I'm okay with the nomination in general, as I don't see how Murthy--in this office--can impact something like the second and, frankly, because I like the idea with a younger, possibly more driven person in this role ('course, I still think Geithner was an awful appointment).

For that matter, where's the evidence that Obama's supposed inexperience is behind whatever failings one sees in his presidency?
Well, it's a point of view, just as is the opposite one. You're not going to accept any analysis in this regard that differs from your own, imo.

I don't see anything other than partisanship at play here. At least I'm open about mine. :Shrug:

Yes, because it's impossible to have different, thoughtful views here without it being partisan.
 

Roxxsmom

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My understanding of the flu vaccine, in the UK at least, is that it is targeted against the epidemiologists' best guess at what this year's flu is going to be. I've just had my jab and this year's flu hasn't yet emerged over here (maybe we won't get one) so no-one knows how effective the vaccine will be. It could be useless.

Yep, that happens sometimes. They've even had to go back and add a new vaccine occasionally, like they did with the H1N1 outbreak a few years back.

The think with the flu comparison, though, is that while thousands of people might die of flu every year, they're a tiny fraction of the people (less than 1%) who actually get it. For most, it's an unpleasant but relatively mild illness.

Ebola has death rates that are upwards of 50%, even with medical support. And it has no vaccine or treatment that is known to be effective yet. It's less contagious than the flu, and the odds of catching it are small in the US. But people don't have a reliable means of protecting themselves, and the consequences of catching it are severe (and it's a gruesome disease too).

Fear of the unknown is at work here too. Plus the fact that there are things that are being confidently stated, like, "You can't catch it without touching an infected person. Oh, or by touching their bodily fluids. And if you want to be really safe, then stay 3 feet away. Or 3-6 feet to be absolutely safe. And health care workers should be fine with masks and gowns. Well, okay. Maybe they should wear goggles and respirators and make sure no skin at all is exposed, and work in pairs."

Then there's the situations where they go over and above recommended protocol "just to be extra safe." Like that case where they went to the cruise ship and tested someone who was isolated wasn't showing any symptoms who was actually at very low risk for getting the disease.

When something like this happens, people start saying, "Hey, wait. They told us people can't transmit the disease if they're asymptomatic, but now they're sending a crew to a cruise ship to test a passenger who is asymptomatic? So obviously they're really worried and don't believe their own reassurances."

And possibly exposed people are being put under mandatory isolation in some cases, with health care workers coming twice a day to take their temperature. Yet other potentially exposed people are being put under voluntary isolation or simply being asked to take their own temperature daily or report if they experience any symptoms.

I think the lack of a uniform set of guidelines and policies, and the lack of clear, consistent explanations for why they're handling different cases differently, is part of the issue. The media doesn't help, as there have been some real bloopers being circulated on the web.

The issue with the dog they killed in Spain comes to mind, where some "experts" were saying there have been cases where dogs have been tested and show signs of harboring the virus, others saying there is no reason to believe dogs can carry the virus, and still others saying there is no way to even test if dogs can harbor the virus or not (seems odd, since they can even isolate tiny traces of ebola in a man's semen three months after he's had it, so why can't they test a dog's blood, saliva, feces etc)?

No one explains these things. I'm confused, and I have training in biology. Imagine how most people would feel.
 
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raburrell

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That high level positions of this sort--leadership ones--in the government require direct experience of a similar nature. I don't know why that's such a hard thing to process.
What I asked for was some support for this idea, not a restatement of it. Examples have been provided in this thread of physicians with a list of accomplishments at a young age - if direct experience is a requirement, and Obama is a case study, it should be possible to provide examples of how.

Would it be unusual for a 37 year old to be have the skills to fill the Surgeon General position? Absolutely. But we're talking exceptions.

The counter--that skills, intelligence and the like trump any perceived lackings in leadership--is equally valid. It's an argument to be had and people can disagree--imo--in this regard.
Mostly agree, though I disagree that any perceived lack of leadership is valid with Murthy. He's done very well with his ventures.

Me, I don't know enough about Murthy and really the office of Surgeon General to absolutely hold a position here. I'm okay with the nomination in general, as I don't see how Murthy--in this office--can impact something like the second and, frankly, because I like the idea with a younger, possibly more driven person in this role ('course, I still think Geithner was an awful appointment).
Yeah - that's where I'm coming from, on your second.

Well, it's a point of view, just as is the opposite one. You're not going to accept any analysis in this regard that differs from your own, imo.
Nice try, but no. As I said above, I'm looking for examples.
I'll freely admit I think the opposition to Murthy is pure NRA-driven BS, but it doesn't mean there aren't things that might change my mind about his actual fitness for the job.

Yes, because it's impossible to have different, thoughtful views here without it being partisan.
See above. It's absolutely possible, but so far, that's not what's happening. IMO.
 

badwolf.usmc

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My understanding of the flu vaccine, in the UK at least, is that it is targeted against the epidemiologists' best guess at what this year's flu is going to be. I've just had my jab and this year's flu hasn't yet emerged over here (maybe we won't get one) so no-one knows how effective the vaccine will be. It could be useless.

To my understanding, the Flu shot in the US is a cocktail that targets the worst types of flu strains. The more common, less dangerous strains will still get you.
 

nighttimer

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Many of the people who feel/felt Obama lacked the necessary experience were concerned with the kind of experience, not the length. For them, McCain was every bit as lacking. Because all he did was sit in the Senate for 20+ years...

Sure, there are those out there being hypocritical on this, who do exactly what you are saying. But no more so than some of those who insisited/insist Obama had sufficient experience, but argued--back in the day--that George W. Bush didn't, or else that he hadn't established sufficient gravitas (which is why he needed Cheney, and why some thought Obama needed Biden).

Go run this by "some of those" who actually made that argument about the experience of Dubya vs. Barry. It wasn't me.

Where does one go to get the necessary experience to become President of the United States? Sit on your butt in the Senate yapping on C-SPAN? Run a Fortune 500 company? Sign a few bills in a single term that crosses the governor's desk? Or is there an academy you can attend, a degree you can earn or an online course you complete after work?

Experience has it's merits, but it's vastly overrated as a predictor of what makes somebody any good at what they do.

Suppose you had to choose between two Presidential candidates, one of whom had spent 20 years in Congress plus had considerable other relevant experience and the other of whom had about half a dozen years in the Illinois state legislature and 2 years in Congress. Which one do you think would make a better President? If you chose #1, congratulations, you picked James Buchanan over Abraham Lincoln. Your pick disagrees with that of most historians, who see Lincoln as the greatest President ever and Buchanan as the second worst ever, better only than Warren "Teapot Dome" Harding. Both served in what was probably the most difficult period in American history, where slavery and secession tore the nation asunder.

Before becoming President, Buchanan had served 6 years in the Pennsylvania state legislature, 10 years in the U.S. House of Representatives, 4 years as ambassador to Russia, 10 years in the Senate, 4 years as Secretary of State, and 4 years as Ambassador to England. Talk about experience, Buchanan did just about everything except serve on the Supreme Court, a job he was offered by President Polk and refused. Yet by any measure, he wasn't up to the job as President. In contrast, Abraham Lincoln served 8 years in the Illinois legislature and one term in the U.S. House (1847-1849), a decade before becoming President. The rest of the time he was a lawyer in private practice, a bit thin one might say.

All experience is not the same. How do you compare being governor of a small state with being governor of a big state? Is being Vice President worth a pitcher of warm beer or any other fluid? Is being a state senator more or less relevant to being president than being Secretary of Commerce?
This line about Obama's insufficient "experience" crap is about as worthwhile as a pitcher of piss-warm beer. I heard it in 2008. Heard it again in 2012. I was over that bullshit then and I'm doubly over it now. Obama is the President of the United States. Not McCain or Romney. Has been for six years. Will be for two more. Deal with it or don't deal with it, but this revisionist junk is played all the way OUT.

robeiae said:
The point is, there is a very defensible argument here, with regard to experience and Obama, one that translates easily to Dr. Murthy (and btw, this doesn't mean I agree with that argument; after all, I voted for Obama over McCain).

If there's a very defensible arguable here with regards to President Obama and Dr. Murthy's experience, how much longer is it gonna be until you make it?
 

robeiae

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Go run this by "some of those" who actually made that argument about the experience of Dubya vs. Barry. It wasn't me.
Didn't say it was you. I'm granting your point, just noting that it doesn't work with all of his critics.


This line about Obama's insufficient "experience" crap is about as worthwhile as a pitcher of piss-warm beer. I heard it in 2008. Heard it again in 2012. I was over that bullshit then and I'm doubly over it now. Obama is the President of the United States. Not McCain or Romney. Has been for six years. Will be for two more. Deal with it or don't deal with it, but this revisionist junk is played all the way OUT.
*shrug*

I'm just explaining the basis of it, mostly as a means of explaining some of the opposition to Murthy. It was only meaningful back when he first ran for President. And again, I didn't buy into, as McCain lacked the same sort of experience. Really, I think long term Senators have too much of the wrong sort of experience. But that's neither here nor there.

If there's a very defensible arguable here with regards to President Obama and Dr. Murthy's experience, how much longer is it gonna be until you make it?
I've explained it. If you don't get it, I don't know how to help you. Of course, it doesn't work for Obama anymore. I think you're not really understanding that point.

And again, I'm not saying it's sufficient to somehow disqualify Murthy. For me, it's more like exactly the opposite. But again, I understand it. It's another point of view and isn't true or false as a matter of course.
 

raburrell

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humor break (look ma, I'm sortof on topic for once!)
What if ISIS took Fox New's advice and tried to weaponize Ebola: A play in one act

Scene: A safe house in Syria. The walls are covered in posters extolling the virtues of jihad. Near the window is a large to-do list with checkmarks next to "genocide," "war crimes," "forced religious conversions," and "kitten-based viral social media strategy." "Establish caliphate" remains un-checked. TERRORIST 1 and TERRORIST 2 stand in front of a whiteboard, brainstorming ideas.
 

Synonym

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Texas has had three cases. Time to build a containment center.

This strikes me as a very strong (overblown?) reaction.

It doesn't have to be strictly for Ebola. After finding out that there are only eleven beds available, in the four or five centers that we currently have in the US, this seems like a reasonable step. It wouldn't take much of an outbreak to overwhelm our bio-containment capabilities.

"The facility and equipment are being provided by partner hospitals, and staffing will be moved to the facility on an as-needed basis if the unit is activated."

Better to plan ahead, rather than be caught flat-footed again.
 

nighttimer

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There's always room for Jello and Ebola paranoia.

A Texas community college will not admit international applicants if their country of origin has “confirmed Ebola cases,” even if the individuals are not at risk of being infected with the disease.

Navarro College—a community college 20 miles outside of Dallas—issued multiple rejection letters to applicants with a home address in Nigeria.

According to Dr. Kamor Abidohgun—an African entrepreneur based out of Houston with a master’s degree in global health from Oxford University—his 29-year-old brother-in-law as well as his 20-year-old nephew both received identical letters stating:
“With sincere regret, I must regret that Navarro College is not able to offer you acceptance for the Spring 2015 term. Unfortunately, Navarro College is not accepting international students from countries with confirmed Ebola cases. “

Nigeria has a population of 174 million, and only a total of 20 registered cases of Ebola since the first documented case in July.

All 20 cases have been traced back to a Liberian air traveler.

In fact, Nigeria’s methods have been considered so effective that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recently dispatched a team to West Africa to study the country’s techniques—which include a preliminary 21-day incubation period.

Nigeria is expected to be declared Ebola-free on Monday by the World Health Organization (WHO) following the mandatory 42-day surveillance of new cases.

Welcome to the Land of the Free and Home of the Chicken-Shit.
 

kaitie

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I work at a college specifically with international students. As a person who was literally in a room with two students from an Ebola affected region (Guinea) giving tests last week, I am perfectly okay with schools deciding this. In fact, all the teachers I work with agree that we should not be allowing those students in, or at least not to be around others without a quarantine period.

My school's solution to the problem? They take their temperatures when they arrive and ask if they've felt sick. If the answer is no, they're allowed to attend classes. Personally, that doesn't seem like enough to me, particularly being the one working in close contact with them.

ETA: I wanted to add something else. My school also does TB tests on all the students. The students who test positive on the skin test must go in for more tests to make sure they don't have TB. Technically speaking, they are not supposed to attend classes until they have received the test and been cleared.

In actuality, this is what happens: a student takes the test, then comes to class while awaiting the results. Student then gets a positive skin test a few days later. No one is informed of this. It isn't until it comes time to pay, about two weeks into the semester, that students are told that they aren't allowed to pay (and thus not allowed to attend classes) until they get the chest x-ray. At this point, the teachers are informed that the student cannot attend classes until they get the x-ray. Students often don't get the results of the x-ray immediately, but are allowed back into classes until results come in.

This means that every semester we have several students who test positive on the original test who are then able to attend classes in small rooms with a large number of other students for usually around two or three weeks before we actually know if they have TB or not. During this time, the student could very well be exposing every other person there, and these are people who test positive on the original skin test.

It has long been a bone of contention for us teachers who strongly feel that they shouldn't be allowed to class until after the results have come in on the skin test, and that if they have a positive that they should not be allowed in until the chest x-ray confirms or denies that they have TB.

Let's just say that considering how lax they are with the TB testing, we aren't all that reassured by the statements that "students from regions with Ebola have been informed to let us know as soon as they feel ill."
 
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rugcat

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Amber Vincent, one of the nurses who contracted Ebola while treating Thomas Duncan is apparently now virus free and doing well.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/22/ebola-amber-vinson-recovery/17742417/

Apparently, the same is true for NBC freelance cameraman Ashoka Mukpo Who contracted the disease in Liberia.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/21/ebola-cameraman-tweeting/17678173/

It's beginning to look like early diagnosis and supportive treatment is a big key to surviving the disease.
 

cornflake

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Amber Vincent, one of the nurses who contracted Ebola while treating Thomas Duncan is apparently now virus free and doing well.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/22/ebola-amber-vinson-recovery/17742417/

Apparently, the same is true for NBC freelance cameraman Ashoka Mukpo Who contracted the disease in Liberia.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/21/ebola-cameraman-tweeting/17678173/

It's beginning to look like early diagnosis and supportive treatment is a big key to surviving the disease.

Or receiving survivor's blood/plasma, for which there's apparently quite the black market in the affected African nations.
 

Monkey

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I work at a college specifically with international students. As a person who was literally in a room with two students from an Ebola affected region (Guinea) giving tests last week, I am perfectly okay with schools deciding this. In fact, all the teachers I work with agree that we should not be allowing those students in, or at least not to be around others without a quarantine period.

On the other hand, my son's school just got two new students - siblings - who are moving here from Nigeria. It has caused hysteria among a certain segment of parents, to the point where the school has sent out multiple fact sheets and assurances on multiple days to keep parents from pulling their kids out of the school.

If either of these kids starts running a fever, we have been assured that they will be isolated and EMS and the CDC will be called immediately. I kinda feel bad, as there's currently a mild illness going around that does sometimes produce fever, and if these kids catch it at school, they're going to be the next big news story.
 

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If either of these kids starts running a fever, we have been assured that they will be isolated and EMS and the CDC will be called immediately. I kinda feel bad, as there's currently a mild illness going around that does sometimes produce fever, and if these kids catch it at school, they're going to be the next big news story.

In fairness, I would not be reassured by being told "We'll isolate them if we find out they're running a fever (i.e., after they have become infectious)."
 

backslashbaby

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I don't know what's so wrong with quarantines for the incubation period if you just came from the area. A co-worker of mine was quarantined for whooping cough. It seems pretty standard to me in dealing with certain diseases.

Is anyone even really against that, I wonder? What's up with not seeing that often enough here? It's the simplest way of protection and totally reasonable, imho.
 

cornflake

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Nurse Amber Vinson declared virus-free. according to family:

http://news.yahoo.com/nurse-amber-vinson-free-of-ebola-virus-family-says-001502702.html

Assuming this is true, and also noting improvement in the condition of the first nurse who contracted Ebola, it seems the survival rate in the US and Canada is comparatively very high.

It's too small a sample, and I think nearly everyone who has survived has gotten either experimental drugs (ZMapp or the b-one), or/and survivor blood products, which skews that tiny sample like heck.

In fairness, I would not be reassured by being told "We'll isolate them if we find out they're running a fever (i.e., after they have become infectious)."

They're from Nigeria, which is Ebola-free. It's hysteria to begin with; I don't see the problem with that response, though honestly, what else would they do even if they're from Liberia - no one from an affected country would be allowed out for 21 days after arrival?

It's untenable, same as blocking flights.
 

Amadan

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They're from Nigeria, which is Ebola-free. It's hysteria to begin with; I don't see the problem with that response, though honestly, what else would they do even if they're from Liberia - no one from an affected country would be allowed out for 21 days after arrival?

It's untenable, same as blocking flights.

There is some hysteria, but not all concern is hysteria.

Nigeria - fair enough. Liberia or anywhere else which is a vector for an epidemic? Yes, yes it is tenable to say anyone from an affected country will be quarantined or denied entry. Yes, it would be very inconvenient and impose hardships. Quarantines do that.