Do Good & Evil exist outside of Human society?

Do Good & Evil exist

  • Yes

    Votes: 79 38.5%
  • No

    Votes: 122 59.5%
  • There is only Good

    Votes: 4 2.0%
  • There is only Evil

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    205

Z0Marley

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I believe good and evil are strictly opinionated.

For example, I think if I saw a grown man rape a child -- I would murder him without thinking twice about if what I was doing was right or wrong. =P
 

ColoradoGuy

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I believe good and evil are strictly opinionated.
I don't know what you mean by this statement. That it is a matter of opinion? That it is relative?
For example, I think if I saw a grown man rape a child -- I would murder him without thinking twice about if what I was doing was right or wrong. =P
So in this example you think good and evil are innately obvious to any observer of the situation? Interesting you use the term murder, rather than kill. The first is a crime, suggesting that you would commit the crime, but the second is not necessarily so.
 

The Otter

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I tend to think of ethics and morality as being in a similar area as mathematics. Math, obviously, cannot exist without humans. Numbers and equations are not "real" in any physical sense and don't exist outside of human minds. But math still describes and explains reality. 2 + 2 can't equal whatever we want it to, it has to equal 4, because otherwise math ceases to be meaningful or useful as a tool.

In the same sense, a system of ethics is a tool to help an individual or a society achieve a desirable state of being. It might not be "real" in the same sense that a desk or a carbon molecule is, but it has to be coherent and consistent and based upon reality. Otherwise it's useless.
 

mgoblue101415

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Evil does not exist outside of human society.

Evil and good are concepts manufactured by humans.


Is a jaguar evil for killing a deer? Is a hawk evil for killing a sparrow? Is a weed evil for killing a lawn?


Good and evil were created in order to categorize those who respected society and its laws and those who did not. For what reason would you go against society unless there was something wrong with you? Unless you were evil? With the progression of religions good and evil were used to scare and control people into abiding by their rules (for the record, I am Christian, I just have issues with most organized religions.)



So... No, outside of human society, good and evil do not exist, as the concept of good and evil is completely a human creation.


And even if you subscribe to the belief that people can literally be good and evil... It would still be something that existed only in human society. Animals, weeds, nature... They all "kill" because it is inherent. It's not a conscious choice they make. There is no concept of good and evil in nature. Humans make choices, therefore they can be held accountable for their actions, be they good or bad.


So, either way, good and evil do not exist outside of human society.
 

Jorge A.

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Some dude (Sagan) said: "With billions and billions and billions of stars in our galaxy and billions and billions of galaxies....Tahdah, life on other planets. If there is life on other planets, then some of it must be self aware. So yes, the answer is yes. Evil ALIENS!
 

Ruv Draba

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IMath, obviously, cannot exist without humans.
It's hard to argue that math is cultural when independent cultures produce the same sort of math. Math language is certainly cultural, but the concepts in math are actually based on concepts we find in nature. The word "six" for counting sheep is one we made up, but the number of sheep in a particular flock is independent of the observer. If we agree on what a sheep is, we'll also agree on how many there are in the flock.

In the same sense, a system of ethics is a tool to help an individual or a society achieve a desirable state of being. It might not be "real" in the same sense that a desk or a carbon molecule is, but it has to be coherent and consistent and based upon reality. Otherwise it's useless.
Yes, but morality isn't simply a means to an end. It's to do with humans identifying what a good end should be. Key tools we use to discover good ends are our sympathy, our empathy and our knowledge of resources, cause and consequence.
 
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Drachen Jager

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Even inside human society there is no good and evil.

We are all just products of our genetics and our environments. We are animals just like any other. A dog or a coyote is not evil for killing a baby, it's just being an animal.

I think trying to attribute, 'pure', qualities to humans is just another way that people use to try and separate us from animals, we want to feel superior. Truth is, we're not. We just have superior brain function.
 

mgoblue101415

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I wonder if any cops have responded to this thread? Would they have a different perspective, I wonder, being on the front lines so to speak?

I'm sure a lot of cops, say in the US, would say they have seen some evil acts. Course, there are cops around the world who have done things that some people would consider evil.

Even within human society "good" and "evil" are subjective. A certain time... A certain place...

Human sacrifices weren't seen as evil within the societies performing them. They were actually good. Something to appease the gods or to ask favor of them. Many people now, however, look back at such things and consider them evil.


Some cultures send their elderly off into the jungle or tundra so they don't take resources from those who aren't on their last leg. Most in "civilized" countries would find that a bit evil.

In America many people send their parents or grandparents off to nursing homes. There are people in other countries around the world who would view that as evil.

If someone has a mental illness and he or she commits unspeakable acts, does that make him or her evil?

And at what point does someone become "evil". The person who shoots the clerk during a robbery... Is he/she evil? Kills the clerk and a customer... Evil? Clerk, a couple customers, and the person whose car he or she jacks... Evil?

Hitler was evil (yeah, okay, I did it... I lowered myself to ad Nazium)... He was responsible for the death of about 6 million Jews, plus a few million more civilians. But then you take Stalin... Responsible for over 20 million deaths. Mao... Around 50 million deaths. I mean, compared to Stalin and Mao, Hitler was the guy killing just the clerk. So why is Hitler considered so much more evil than Stalin or Mao?

Because it's all subjective. Different human societies have different views of evil. And the fact that there is no one universal agreement or view of evil, IMO, just proves that evil, and with it, good, are concepts created by humans.
 

Jorge A.

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Hitler was evil (yeah, okay, I did it... I lowered myself to ad Nazium)... He was responsible for the death of about 6 million Jews, plus a few million more civilians. But then you take Stalin... Responsible for over 20 million deaths. Mao... Around 50 million deaths. I mean, compared to Stalin and Mao, Hitler was the guy killing just the clerk. So why is Hitler considered so much more evil than Stalin or Mao?

You know I've wondered this myself at one time or another: what is it about Hitler? I've come to the conclusion that it was the methods. The holocaust was systematic, recorded, controlled; murder turned into an industrial process; maximally efficient cold technology indifferently killing millions. I think many people find this terrifying. The millions starving at the hands of Stalin we can understand or relate to, even one man shooting another makes sense in a primitive sort of way. the mechanization of slaughter is inhuman.
 

Ruv Draba

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You know I've wondered this myself at one time or another: what is it about Hitler?
Hitler founded modern politics with his use of propaganda, spectacle, supremacism and a hated enemy. He came to power democratically and we hate him because in him we recognise what we don't wish to acknowledge: the worst of ourselves.
 

Synovia

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Plenty of animals do.

Adolescent lions will find a new pride, kill the dominant male, kill the cubs to bring the females to heat, and rape the females.

Some snail species shoot sperm projectiles at each other (most snails are hermaphroditic), essentially trying to impregnate the other snail, while avoiding becoming pregnant. (in the article I see)
 

Summonere

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2-cents and a cup of tea

St. Augustine thought that evil was the absence of good (City of God, was it?).

Nietzsche though that “evil” was a man made construct (Jehnseits von Gut und Böse).

Men perpetrate evil when they know better but do it anyway.

When they don't know any better, they're not evil, merely feral.
 

Monkey

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For certain values, those values being my view of good and evil (since that's certainly debatable topic) and my belief in the nature of animal emotion and thought (also a debatable topic), I can give this question a definitive "Yes."

There are many stories like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpYRITtLSg&feature=player_embedded where an animal (in this case, a dog) does something unnatural for its species, showing, IMO, both reasoning and emotion, to consciously do good in the world.

And there are also stories (that I have no desire to seek out or link to) where they go just as far out of the norm to do evil.

I have had a horse fight a pack of dogs for my safety, and have seen a skittish horse stand stock-still when jumped on from above by my small son. I've seen a dog who loves to hunt lick and stand guard over a baby possum, and a dog who had long since given up puppy-rearing produce milk for an orphaned puppy. To me, all those actions showed either reason or emotion that I would consider "good".

On the other hand, I've seen a pack of dogs tear a cat limb-from-limb for nothing more than sport, leaving pieces of its mangled body everywhere and slinking away afterwards, tails between their legs (I was about eight at the time, and this pack wasn't mine.) To my mind, that sort of senseless destruction, not for food or even territory but simply for the thrill, is "evil". And it's not the norm in animal society any more than it is in human--if, indeed, we insist on separating the two.

I would say that I don't think an animal would have the thought process equivalent to "I will do this, because it is good" or "I refuse to do this, because it is evil", but on review, I can't even make that distinction. Generally, I would say that the rules are what matter, as in a dog working VERY hard not to pee on the floor of a locked house because it would be "bad"--"bad" here mostly means "against the rules". It's a matter of trying to figure out how a dog figures "good and evil", and now we're WAY too esoteric, because you'd have to believe as I do to get that far. :tongue

But not too long ago, there was a study done (I'll try to find and link it later--right now, breakfast calls) where dogs who had been taught to sit on command, and did so reliably, were split into two groups. Both were commanded to sit, but only one got treats. The non-treated dogs soon started refusing to sit, eying the treats of the others, presumably because the treatment was unfair.

When the experiment was repeated with Apes, they got similar results, except that while for dogs, the only distinction that mattered was "treat/no treat", Apes would cease to preform if one group received a treat that was perceived to be "better".

To me, this shows a sense of fairness, and a willingness to operate against "the rules" if they are perceived as "unfair". Since I have also seen animals "act out" (such as a housetrained cat peeing ON THE STOVE BURNER or a dog who literally peed ON THE MAILMAN that he hated) in ways that were clearly against the rules, but also seemed to be protests against "bad" things, be it "unfairness" or just things they saw as "bad", I believe they have at least a sense of "good" and "bad" that goes beyond the rules, and that this judgement originates within them, from their own thoughts.
 

Bartholomew

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The universe seems to consistantly and easily produce life. Which leads me to think that activity that kills life, without somehow supporting life (EG, hunting for food) is evil.

I'm not suggesting that trophy hunting is evil, by the way. The joyful emotions and the thrill of victory are good from at least one perspective, and are probably neutral.

And then this line of thought leads me to believe that there is almost no purely evil activity - even the worst cases of genocide and mass murder were committed with the intent of protecting or furthering a certain group.

So your pure evil comes from things like the Son of Sam and, um, a black hole?

I confused myself, and I need more coffee.
 

talkwrite

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I have found that good and evil not only both exist, they co-exist. Sometimes in the same person. The definitions of these words have been subjective over the ages. What at one time is/was evil in time with a change in perspective can be then considered acceptable and good . Look at how societies make laws and reform them. I have worked in both law enforcement and in the court system for over 30 years. It all gets down to the choice of behavior and the choice of reaction. And then it is defined as good or evil.

Outside of human society the rule is instinct. That is until your environment forces you to change that instinct. And the media reports mass suicides of mammals and so on.
Again, just my view of that landscape.

I've been thinking about motives, about protagonists and antagonists, and about good and evil.

I'm confused. Are good and evil absolute or are they relative? And if they are relative, then how can they exist at all when the most common assumed definition for both of them entails being the opposite of the other?

Everything I come up with as an example of pure evil turns out not to be when attributed to nature (you try).

So what is evil? What is good? Do they exist outside of society, outside of consciousness?

Any thoughts?
 

indiriverflow

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Good and evil are utterly relative to perspective.
Food is good. Not having it is evil. Having too much and getting fat is also evil.
Poison is evil. In small amounts, it may kill an infection, making it medicine and therefore good.
A specific example is snake venom, which is both cure and disease.

Killing is evil. Killing Osama bin Laden, to most US patriots, was good. Celebrating his death, in my opinion, is evil.
Good is that which acts in our self-interest or interests which we emotionally endorse, fighting that which we oppose.
Evil is that which frustrates self interests or the interests we endorse, or enhancing that which we oppose.

I think cops are evil. I think they are collectively more evil than the criminals they exist to apprehend. That does not mean they can't do good things, or that they don't think of themselves as anything but the paragon of good.
Other people think cops make them safe and that locking up people who break laws is good. The person being locked up usually feels otherwise. I think that two evils are being done when a criminal is arrested.
Many cops would think I am evil for having this opinion. Most consider their actions to be a victory for good.
I did have a cop give me five bucks once when he found me sleeping in a ditch.
So even this great evil is not absolute.
 
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Arcadia Divine

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Slightly off topic i think, but, a lot of my friends tend to associate good and evil with holy and unholy or light and dark. I cringe at this because to me they're saying that there's only those two categories, which in my is wrong. To me everyone, from religious leaders to the guy you passed walking down the street has booth good and evil inside them. Everyone makes decisions in both areas. That said there's is no truly good or evil, there's always in between
 

justkay

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Just my opinion

Does evil exist? Yes, but it is a uniquely human concept, something that only the higher functioning, human brain is capable of.

Applied to nature, 'evil' evaporates into just the way things are. You've got your slot in the food chain or you're standing in the wrong spot when lightning strikes - that's not evil - that's life. Sharks aren't being evil then they eat dolphins (although the dolphins may disagree) and lightning has no evil intent when it crashes to the earth.

Only in the minds, and at the hand of humans, does evil exist. That's one of the disadvantages of having a highly developed frontal cortex - that particular area of our brain makes us creative in ways that (we assume) other creatures haven't attained. It also gives us the capacity for evil.

A simplistic comparison: we're born with the ability to speak a complex and complicated language which has allowed our species to thrive - it also allows bratty kids at the mall to scream their little heads off. Unfortunately, you take the good with the bad.

Evil is a human ability and completely subjective. Only humans can define what's evil - and trust me - that definition has shifted several times over the millenia.

In centuries past, if a witch was burned at the stake that was considered a public service, not evil.

Fortunately, as our species has developed and become more sophisticated, our definition of evil is more clearly defined. Most of the (sane) people in the world today understand that burning witches isn't a good thing after all - but we live very fragile lives and we are plagued by that huge frontal cortex.

Tomorrow, the majority of the world's people may decide that witches are responsible for all the world's woes - and the burning will begin all over again. :Shrug:

Evil is as human does....
 

QuantumIguana

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To say that good and evil 'exist' implies that they are nouns. Good and evil are more appropriately adjectives. Without runners, running would no longer exist. Without people acting in a way we describe as moral, morality would not exist. If someone punches me in the face without provocation, I would call that evil. But why would I call it evil? Not because some rule said so, but because it hurts, and I don't want to be hurt. But imagine some alien society living on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri, where a punch in the nose is their equivalent of a handshake. There is no harm for them, so it wouldn't be evil. Now, if this alien visits here, and punches the ambassador in the face, there may be a diplomatic incident, but the alien hasn't acted evilly, although there was harm. The alien acted out of ignorance, but acted in good faith.

We don't condemn acts because they are evil, we describe acts as evil because they cause harm.
 

kborsden

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I believe what we define as 'evil' is simple nature or the composite of natural environmental influence and behaviours; 'good' is idealistic thinking.

In this sense, we are all evil, but we teach and adapt to rules against it, struggle to be better. In a world without those rules or imposed morality, we would be no better than beasts. As was previously said, it's the curse of having an evolved mind... but I see 'good' as the cursed notion and not 'evil'.
 

robjvargas

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Good and Evil are choices in given circumstances. We can argue about their definitions, but since they do indeed define choices, then yes,they exist.