10 Hours of One Woman's Being Harrassed in NYC, Filmed

raburrell said:

Yeah, I agree - all I meant was that I can understand where the guy was maybe coming from.

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Oh yeah, I can see that, too. And I can even see why, given the state of things, he'd feel that conclusion before the one many of us came to.

And that is a terrible thing.

Devil Ledbetter said:

Example: Last weekend I made the 6 hour drive to Chicago to see a friend. I was alone. I stopped at a rest area and went into the vending station to get a bottled water. A man was standing outside of the vending station, and when I went in he moved closer to the entrance and stood there, smoking and watching me use the vending machine. When I came out, he said "I really like your boots" and I muttered "Thanks" without looking at him, and continued quickly toward my car.

I don't care what his intentions were, whether he genuinely liked my boots, or was hoping to brighten my day with a compliment, or was standing there complimenting every stranger as part of some grand social experiment. It felt lousy. Here I am alone in a strange place, just trying to get some water, and this dude is lurking nearby, watching my every move and saying something about my footwear. Ick. .

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I would have done the same thing, and felt the same way.

If I were on a Manhattan street with lots of people around, and a man complimented my boots, it wouldn't creep me out (well, unless he did it in a way I found creepy -- which could certainly be done -- or followed me, etc.).

But alone? At a remote rest stop? With no one anywhere near us? Yeah, I would have felt very, very vulnerable and hypersensitive to essentially anything the man did -- and if he were watching me and making totally unnecessary remarks, I'd be freaking out and mentally going over my plan of action if he attacked. And I think any man with a grain of sensitivity should be able to see why a woman would feel that way.

heza said:

You know, I think it's interesting the way I respond to that. I don't really mind when someone on a perceived lower rung on the social ladder calls me darling, especially if it's another woman. Like if I'm dressed for a huge executive meeting and I go to a cafe for lunch and the 20-something waitress calls me honey... don't care. Maybe it's the region. A lot of women call everyone honey.

If like, a man in a suit or my boss called me "sweetheart" or something, I would freaking lose it. Is that just because, coming from a man, it reminds me of "little lady," or something?

I also don't mind it from older women. I think I only get angry when men do it.

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Born in the South, and having lived there for the last many years of my life, after a lot of travel, I've long been accustomed to waitresses who call everybody honey, darlin', sweetheart, and I don't get angry about it. But I consider it, especially as I'm almost always much older than they are, an unconscious method of talking down to me. ETA: It's a case of, regardless if I'm a stranger, moving into my personal area, an area normally reserved for people to whom I'm very close, and asserting a right to use those reserved terms of endearment. Again, not the biggest deal in the world, but it causes a tiny, knee-jerk reaction inside me. But that's just me.

But if I ever have occasion to call you "sweetheart," I'll make sure to wear casual clothes, and not a suit.

Perception is funny. I've lived in the South all my life and hunny, darlin', and such has a tendency not to bother me in a casual business setting, because it most often feels to me like an invitation to expect and comfortably request whatever I'd like to make my customer service experience more satisfactory. Basically an invitation to make myself at home.

Certainly, inflection adds or detracts a lot from this comfort.

The "sweetheart/honey" thing is another instance where the person saying it, and my perceptions of his/her intentions and his/her cultural context, makes all the difference.

Lots of southerners I've met call everyone sweetheart or darlin' and it totally doesn't bother me, man or woman.

I also don't mind it if my overall impression is that the person is treating me with respect, and is just, e.g., teasing or having fun with me. For example, I don't think I've ever interacted with Noah in another thread, but I immediately understood that his "mami" was a fun joke, and he was not remotely trying to demean me. Ditto with a couple of reps I got. (You people know who you are. )

So usually that kind of thing rolls right off me.

But every once in a while, I'll get one that's sneering, or seems geared to put me in my place. And then I will take umbrage. And you really don't want to see me take umbrage.

heza said:

Does anyone else also just feel really resentful that we feel like we have to say "thanks." I mean, here's a guy that's making me feel threatened at worst, uncomfortable at best, and I still feel like I have to say, "thank you," because I was raised to be polite, because women have to sweet no matter what, because if I don't, he might get angry....

... so "thank you, kind sir, for making me feel very uncomfortable." It's adding insult to injury.

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Hmm, yes. I also blamed myself for having worn those boots, even though they are combat style Doc Martens and not at all of the F-me variety.

I tend to be extremely informal, instantly joking with people I've just met. It almost always works out fine, although I did find out that TSA agents aren't terribly quick to laugh. (No, I didn't make a bomb comment, but did ball it up pretty good just the same.)

Thinking about my own nearly aggressive friendliness, it draws an even bolder underline to the original post's points. As assertive as I am in the all-in-this-together friendly mode, I would not flag down the attention of anyone simply mozying down the street, minding his or her own business. With as comfortable as I am speaking to strangers, it would be completely out of place to intrude on someone else's daily mission without a shared moment of circumstance to invite such a gesture on my part.

And if I wouldn't do it, comfortable as I am with meetings and greetings, then I cannot even imagine what that flavor of effrontery would taste like.

Thinking about it, though, I am reminded of once when the tables were turned. On the night of my bachelorette party, I was given a list of tasks to complete over the course of the evening. One of the things I was supposed to do was to station myself outside the men's room for a ten minute stint as a random greeter. Guys going in and coming out got, by the list's direction, a "Hello!" or "Hi, how are you doing?" or "Have a nice evening." from me.

Good lord. Those guys were so completely weirded out. They actually, now that I think about it, looked a little fearful. I only just remembered that. How funny... (and by funny, I mean strange.)

Perks said:

I tend to be extremely informal, instantly joking with people I've just met. It almost always works out fine, although I did find out that TSA agents aren't terribly quick to laugh. (No, I didn't make a bomb comment, but did ball it up pretty good just the same.)

Thinking about my own nearly aggressive friendliness, it draws an even bolder underline to the original post's points. As assertive as I am in the all-in-this-together friendly mode, I would not flag down the attention of anyone simply mozying down the street, minding his or her own business. With as comfortable as I am speaking to strangers, it would be completely out of place to intrude on someone else's daily mission without a shared moment of circumstance to invite such a gesture on my part.

And if I wouldn't do it, comfortable as I am with meetings and greetings, then I cannot even imagine what that flavor of effrontery would taste like.

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Yeah, I've been trying to figure out how to say almost this. I am about the friendliest person you could ever meet. I walk around with at least a half-smile on my face, and love talking to strangers. When I read Devil's comment about the man at the rest area, it got me thinking, because while I do compliment people frequently, that made me realize I never interrupt them or do so without social cues that it's welcome. I might tell a cashier (if he or she isn't rushed or unfriendly) I like her earrings or something, but never just someone on the street without some sign that interaction is welcome.

Here's an example. This kid sitting next to me on the train was drumming his fingers on his knee and had the most gorgeous nail polish--shimmery grey metallic. At some point, we made eye contact and I smiled, then he smiled and didn't look right away, so I said, "I love that nail polish," and he told me what it was and we had a nice exchange about our nail polish obsessions. But I would never have said so without that opening. And I am frail, obviously unwell little woman with either a walker or wheelchair, so I am about as nonthreatening as you can get.

CassandraW said:

If I were on a Manhattan street with lots of people around, and a man complimented my boots, it wouldn't creep me out (well, unless he did it in a way I found creepy -- which could certainly be done -- or followed me, etc.).

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Yeah, the nicely dressed, smiling young man who complimented my "cool shirt" on a busy Fort Lauderdale street one afternoon didn't creep me out one little bit right up until he punched me hard in the breast because I guess my small smile and "thanks" weren't enough for him, or I didn't slow my pace or something. Not all compliments go that way, but enough have gotten unpleasant and even threatening that when a strange man uses one to pull my focus in public my mind does the "how should I respond, I don't want to get called names or get followed or...." thing. It doesn't happen much anymore, as I have gone from knockout to, as I said, frail, twisted little woman with a walker or wheelchair, and unlike the Fox News women who say they'd miss catcalling, I love that I've become invisible (though now every proselytizer in the world has stepped into the void that catcalling men left). I can be out in public and gather my thoughts or just not have to consider how to respond to a man who seems just as nice and harmless as those who have punched me or called me an ugly name. Yet, I can still have frequent fun interactions with strangers, even males.

This is so weird, but recently, I was in the atrium of my local library, head down, reading a book. A little old man leaned over, his head almost touching mine and asked, "You want to see something pretty?" My answer was a resounding, immediate "nooooo!" I didn't look up, but he shoved a photo of a poodle under my nose and said, "I just wanted to show you my dog." I almost apologized, knowing life can be lonely for everyone, but especially the elderly, but something made me keep my head down and say, "Please just leave me alone." He called me rude, loudly enough for others to hear (and went on to approach only women sitting alone, though there were a lot of people in that space). That whole thing wasn't about me. It was about someone else wanting me to give him something that, when I failed to give it, punished me for it.

robjvargas said:

I didn't say that you "have to" anything. And I don't think I've made any effort to deny or even to doubt a single personal anecdote given here.

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I hate, hate, hate overused SJW terms, but when even to me, the word that comes to mind is "gaslighting," it may be time to answer the following question: exactly what kind of response are you hoping to get here? Is there some point you think has been made that isn't being acknowledged, or do you think the analysis of the video offered in this thread is inadequate, or what? I am scratching my head here.

robjvargas said:

But we're not always doing this. And if women can't see *that*, then we're being denied our humanity, as well.

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Wonderful. Any tips on how we're supposed to tell the difference?

And as to being denied your humanity by random women's annoyance and suspicion, can we first establish why it's appropriate to hail and distract a woman, a complete stranger to you who has not given any indication of being open for contact - by demeanor or situation - who is merely minding her own business on the non-catwalk of a city street? Why is this okay? Because you never answered my earlier question of it and it's the first order of operation to solve for this problem.

rob, I say this with the intent not to dogpile, but to try to help - I make an effort to answer you sincerely when you ask questions like these because at the time, it sounds like you genuinely want to understand something that just doesn't compute with your way of seeing the world. And by asking them, I'm making the (possibly incorrect) assumption you're willing to change your mind/behavior/approach if it starts to make sense.

Based on your replies, I'm really seeing very little evidence of that. So either a) you're trolling for reaction, or b) you're really more interested in confirming your own view rather than challenging it. In any case, I'm a little tired of playing Lucy with the football, personally.

Lyv said:

Yeah, the nicely dressed, smiling young man who complimented my "cool shirt" on a busy Fort Lauderdale street one afternoon didn't creep me out one little bit right up until he punched me hard in the breast because I guess my small smile and "thanks" weren't enough for him, or I didn't slow my pace or something.

...

A little old man leaned over, his head almost touching mine and asked, "You want to see something pretty?" My answer was a resounding, immediate "nooooo!" I didn't look up, but he shoved a photo of a poodle under my nose and said, "I just wanted to show you my dog."

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I'm much more wary when someone comes right up close to me, even if they seem inoffensive.

Guys 10 feet away who don't move a muscle to approach me, and just say "bless you, mami"? I'm generally not perturbed.

Guy sidles close to me and says "bless you, mami" right in my ear? I'm freaked.

Guy says "you have a beautiful face" as he's walking past me in the other direction -- and keeps walking? I'm generally not perturbed. (If he stops, though...)

Guy who deliberately singles me out, approaches me on the subway, stands close enough to touch me, and says exactly the same thing? I'm likely to be really freaked.

A lot depends on how close the guy is standing to me, whether he's deliberately approached me, where we are, and his general demeanor. Evolution has given me little hairs that spring up on the back of my neck, and I trust them.

robjvargas said:

I don't want to speak for Cassandra, but even she seems to have some issue with that characterization. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Cassandra.

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I've made my position fairly abundantly clear in this thread, I think.

I get the fear/anger, and I often share it, depending on the context. And I think men should be aware that they could make a woman feel vulnerable and threatened, even if they mean no harm at all. To that extent, I agree with Devil's point, and the points made by the women on this thread.

That said, my own personal line at feeling vulnerable/threatened/offended is drawn in a different place than many women on this thread.

I'm kinda dying to know how an end to random street commentary is denying any man his humanity - whatever that even means.

No one has suggested an end to friendliness, because who would want that? An examination of motive and social wisdom (read: lack thereof) behind hailing complete strangers is not kneecapping anyone's humanity. It's correcting an error.

robjvargas said:

But we're not always doing this. And if women can't see *that*, then we're being denied our humanity, as well.

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Not quite. Men are not being denied their humanity. Women are. On a frequent basis, we are being objectified, treated as sources of entertainment and attention, with no thought for our autonomy and right to be left alone or have conversations on our own terms.

When women make the default assumption that all men might be objectifying us, we're not denying you your humanity. We're being a bit sexist by painting you all with the same brush.

It doesn't really matter.

I truly regret that nice men are faulted for trying to be friendly and that it hurts your feelings to be lumped in with the jerks, but this is how the world is. It's not our fault the world is this way. Some men have created this issue by legitimately harassing many, many women. This is the stance we have to take now to protect ourselves. The risk to us far outweighs the risk to you. If we do not respond to a man who calls out to us on the street because we are afraid he is the "same as all the others," the absolute worst thing that happens to him is that his feelings are hurt and he is offended by our rudeness.

The risk to us, on the other hand, can range from verbal to physical abuse.

What if 50% of the time, when you tried to distract a woman in defense-walking mode with a "How are you today?" she turned around and cursed you out in front of every one on the sidewalk and followed you when you tried to escape her? What if 20% of the time, she hauled off and punched you? Would you consider it wise to stop talking to women on the street because you never know when that might happen... which woman was going to come unhinged over your simple greeting?

I'm guessing most people would because that's a terrible position to be put in, and they would want to avoid it. But that's the position we're put in every day.

Perks said:

I'm kinda dying to know how an end to random street commentary is denying any man his humanity - whatever that even means.

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I am, too. Rob, can you please answer this?

I stand by what I said before. Calling out to a woman like this can be upsetting, or it can be neutral to mildly pleasant. It doesn't have potential to have a very positive impact. With that in mind, why do you need to be able to do it, in order to keep your humanity?

CassandraW said:

I'm much more wary when someone comes right up close to me, even if they seem inoffensive.

Guys 10 feet away who don't move a muscle to approach me, and just say "bless you, mami"? I'm generally not perturbed.

Guy sidles close to me and says "bless you, mami" right in my ear? I'm freaked.

Guy says "you have a beautiful face" as he's walking past me in the other direction -- and keeps walking? I'm generally not perturbed. (If he stops, though...)

Guy who deliberately singles me out, approaches me on the subway, stands close enough to touch me, and says exactly the same thing? I'm likely to be really freaked.

A lot depends on how close the guy is standing to me, whether he's deliberately approached me, where we are, and his general demeanor. Evolution has given me little hairs that spring up on the back of my neck, and I trust them.

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Lucky you. I guess that must mean I am just not as evolved.

Except the guy who punched me? He started off fine. He wasn't close, he wasn't creepy. He got that way. How he got close enough to punch me was that he followed me, and I hadn't realized it, so when I turned to enter a building, which slowed me, he popped up and hit me (of course, he called me the expected word).

I can't understand how any of the comments in the video, no matter how supposedly friendly the guy might have thought he was being, are anything but kinda creepy and inappropriate at best.
I'm a guy, so I don't have to put up with this day in day out, but even one comment like that, out of the blue, with nothing to invite it would make me go "wtf?".

In other news, this video has shown up a few times on My G+ feed, and my oh my. I sometimes forget how wonderful the people here on AW are compared to the rest of the Internet.

And I'll agree with the women here on this, as well:

The fact that I am OK with some strange men sometimes addressing me on the street does not mean that it's advisable for men to do this. It's clear -- it freaks a lot of women out no matter what the context, especially if they've had a bad experience. Now you know, if you didn't before.

No matter how nice your intentions and even your actions, you don't know her -- you don't know whether she's me, or a woman who's, say. had a guy take her hair by his teeth on the bus. (Gaah! What a terrible story!) So I'd think twice about doing it, if I were you. Or perhaps do a robeaie, and only do it when there's a context for conversation (the line at Starbucks, for example). That is what I would advise my son, if I had one, or a male friend looking for guidance.



That said, now I have to tell a pleasant story of when I thought I had an intrusive catcall situation, and in fact it turned out quite nice.

I was in Porto, Portugal, a couple of months back, alone. I was walking past a sidewalk cafe, and a guy sitting there called (in accented English) "Miss! Hey Miss! Hello?" And I knew he was addressing me.

I started to do my usual expressionless I-can't-hear-you walk-by, when I caught a glimpse of him in my peripheral vision. And immediately recognized him. Earlier that morning, in a completely different section of town, I'd taken a long tram ride. A little Portuguese boy had started chatting to me a mile a minute, regardless of the fact that I couldn't understand a word he was saying. Amused, this guy, who was sitting near us, translated. We had a fun little half hour on the tram between the three of us, the kid's mother (who also spoke no English) smiling the whole time. So cute. We didn't introduce ourselves, though, and we went our separate ways after the tram.

Anyway. Once I realized I'd met the guy, I decided to stop and say hello. My gut on the tram was that he was not only safe, but cool. To make a long story short, I spent the rest of the afternoon with him having coffee and taking a stroll with him, and we had a lovely time before we parted ways. He was incredibly well-traveled and well-read, and a marvelous conversationalist. I don't do small talk. He didn't either. Too bad we live on different continents. By the way, he made not a single leering comment, and he did not attempt to take it anywhere past the nice conversation. Actually, he was leaving town that night (he was traveling, too). This wasn't a pick-up -- it was a mutual "you seem fun, let's talk."

But that's me. I would not EVER condemn another woman for continuing to walk right past the guy, even if she recognized him. I get it. However nice he seemed, he might have been a creep, and I was taking a chance. I personally felt OK as long as we were in public places, among others. I would not have asked him back to my hotel room, or gone into a dark alley with him, cuz, yanno, stranger, but I felt perfectly fine having coffee with him. But that's me.

If I had walked on by, and the guy yelled nasty stuff at me for doing so, that would make him an asshole. Because I'd be perfectly within my rights to ignore him.


ETA:

I hope this is clear. I am NOT in any way belittling or condemning women for being cautious. At. All.

robjvargas said:

I believe that when men (or boys, to one extent or another) do this, women aren't being seen as persons. I've been guilty of it a time or three myself. I make no excuse for it.

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Thanks for owning up to the bolded. I suspected as much given that you started this thread playing devil's advocate, insisting that men be given the benefit of the doubt unless they are being blatantly creepy and inappropriate. You've stubbornly ignored what the women in the thread have said repeatedly.

robjvargas said:

But we're not always doing this. And if women can't see *that*, then we're being denied our humanity, as well.

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You aren't being denied shit. No random woman that you're making unsolicited comments at owes you any consideration for your so-called "humanity."

Lyv said:

Lucky you. I guess that must mean I am just not as evolved.

Except the guy who punched me? He started off fine. He wasn't close, he wasn't creepy. He got that way. How he got close enough to punch me was that he followed me, and I hadn't realized it, so when I turned to enter a building, which slowed me, he popped up and hit me (of course, he called me the expected word).

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Don't put words in my mouth, please.

I've made no claim at all at being "more evolved." The only thing I've said is that my lines are drawn in different places. That is my prerogative, just as it is your prerogative to draw yours where you draw them.

That was a terrible incident, and I'm sorry it happened to you. I don't blame you a bit for being wary.

I think the original question of why friendly-guy feels comfortable calling out greetings to random women can be answered simply. He's either oblivious or not actually a friendly-guy at all.

The very kindest explanation is that he's operating under the false assumption that women like this. Rejection of this idea gets his feelings hurt, apparently to the extent that it can somehow feel as dire as having his humanity denied.

If there's a little brainpower to spare, a dissection of this phenomenon with a dose of distanced reason applied, and with a little help from female friends and acquaintances, it will become clear why this is very-if-not-most often an unwelcome and unpleasant experience for women and really not worth all the ill will and no dates that come from it.

In that case, friendly-guy and his cousin nice-guy will cut it out and pass on their newfound understanding.

Everyone else who persists in the behavior or denies the map of the error is not really the friendly-guy he professes to be.