Lesser of Two Evils?

Terie · Apr 13, 2012

Can I just point out that my YA fantasy series is pretty much one story in four volumes...and I've neither won any awards nor had any books published before this series.

The first book's story could stand alone, but there were plenty of unresolved threads.

The second book can sorta-kinda stand alone.

Book three ends on a cliff-hanger; therefore books three and four can't really stand alone, although it's conceivable they could stand as a pair.

This kind of thing is fairly common in the SF and F genres.

The key is that the first book needs to be able to stand alone. Once a publisher wants that, the rest of the series can be designed any way the author and editor decide to go.

FWIW, I pitched my series as a four-volume series from the outset because it was all one story arc. The synopsis that I sent in the submission packages was for the series, not just the first book. The publisher that picked it up contracted only book one at first, then once that was sorted, the editor asked to see book two and promptly offered a contract for the rest of the series.

quicklime · Apr 13, 2012

so you're essentially encouraging them based on "lottery odds"?

you're right, I do suspect people are generally deluded, by simple statistics. On top of that, there is a serious "Pete and Repeat" pattern here that leaves me extra dubious about the editing.

As for the rest, the point was you were comparing apples to oranges. LOTR from a well-respected writer and what, close to 70 years ago, is not the same as debut unknown, in 2012. Any series from a guy who won an award or had four books under their belt by the time they pitched their series, also not the same as a debut unknown.

quicklime · Apr 13, 2012

Terie said:
The key is that the first book needs to be able to stand alone. Once a publisher wants that, the rest of the series can be designed any way the author and editor decide to go.

If you want to try this approach, krazy, this is probably the single most important part. This way the publishers can minimize their risk, while still offering a solid product.

and if I didn't say already, fudging your count, well, are you hoping to pitch to the agent who is startingh his very first day on the job? Because any others have seen that trick, dozens of times.

Toothpaste · Apr 13, 2012

BethS - No one is saying KrazyKat is deluded. No one is putting him/her down. Everyone is pointing out the challenges he/she faces, and KrazyKat is free to ignore or not.

But yes, his/her posting actually DOES matter. Because I have noticed that he/she uses a lot of words to say not that much. There are some posters here who write long posts, but I read every single word anyway because every single word matters. But I have skimmed KrazyKat's posts on this thread.

(And I speak ss an overwriter myself. I have noticed how I tend to write more than is always necessary, compared with some of my fellow AWers.)

In any event, it is not remotely unusual for a new author to think he/she is the exception to the rule, hence the desire to explain to said author that nine times out of ten, one isn't. KrazyKat is allowed to make whatever decisions he/she wants, and you are free to offer support in the face of the pragmatism of the rest of the posters here. Personally, I think facts are more important than boosting self confidence at this stage (not that anyone has been negative or tearing down KrazyKat in the first place - advice and sharing the reality of the industry isn't being mean, it's actually trying to be helpful).

BethS · Apr 13, 2012

quicklime said:
LOTR was a single book, split by publishers due to length rather than the author

Yes, and that was my point. It was a single book, split up because they thought it was too long to publish as one volume. So was Mordant's Need and The Kingkiller Chronicles. So was Connie Willis's award-winning Blackout and All Clear. None of those had complete arcs in the first volume(s).

They weren't all debuts, no, but the point of contention was whether each volume in a trilogy or any multiple-book series has to have a real ending and feel complete. And the answer is no.

I'm not sure how much relevance these things have to a debut author being able to do as he likes.

Who said a debut author could "do as he likes"? That isn't exactly what's under discussion here, I don't think.

The relevance is that there is precedent for long books being split into volumes for ease of publishing. The would-be author does not necessarily have to conform to the industry standard, not if what he or she has written is exceptional enough to become an exception.

And this is a topic near and dear to my heart, seeing as how I'm one of those who has written something longer than most publishers would want to issue in a single volume.

quicklime · Apr 13, 2012

BethS said:
Yes, and that was my point. It was a single book, split up because they thought it was too long to publish as one volume. So was Mordant's Need and The Kingkiller Chronicles. So was Connie Willis's award-winning Blackout and All Clear. None of those had complete arcs in the first volume(s).

They weren't all debuts, no, but the point of contention was whether each volume in a trilogy or any multiple-book series has to have a real ending and feel complete. And the answer is no.

except you are picking outliers while completely ignoring mitigating factors the OP does NOT have to offer. So the fact they did it with LOTR ages ago, and the fact the other guys were established writers or had awards, it DOES matter. The point of contention was if the OP's book was likely too large to run with. Since the OP is a debut author, NOT publishing in the 1940s, NOT bringing awards to the table, these things matter....

Who said a debut author could "do as he likes"? That isn't exactly what's under discussion here, I don't think.

here was the original question: The big question now is: which is the lesser of two evils? Is it worse to say, “Here’s my 265,000 word novel,” or, “Here’s my 78,000 novel that’s the first part of a trilogy (and the sort that’s clearly part of a longer work, because you can tell there’s a lot more to come . . .)”??? No, not exactly "can I do as I like" but this has become a discussion of if he or she can pitch while hiding wordcount, split the book, edit, etc.--the discussion has become pretty broad. You suggested there was precedent, he could split it, and I pointed out you are comparing very different books and people, so that is a pretty big stretch.

The relevance is that there is precedent for long books being split into volumes for ease of publishing. The would-be author does not necessarily have to conform to the industry standard, not if what he or she has written is exceptional enough to become an exception. again, though, the industry is doing that EXTREMELY rarely......even less so if you try to find examples that aren't folks with a track record, or an award, or some other factor that helped them...

And this is a topic near and dear to my heart, seeing as how I'm one of those who has written something longer than most publishers would want to issue in a single volume. I can see that...which is why you're trying to hand-wave. yes, it can happen, but I doubt you are serving yourself or the op well if you're basing your entire argument on people who have succeeded without really looking at WHY they got to be the exception, because it wasn't just "they wrote the best book possible". There were other factors at play, that you seem insistent on ignoring.

I guess, at the end of the day, different people have different motivators. I'm an information guy. I may still say "what the hell, I'm gonna swing for the fences anyway," but I really, really want to know what's out there, and analyze it.

When you can only toss out examples from two decades before I was even born, or from folks who won highly prestigious awards, or from folks who did it after they have a fanbase, I see that as a serious analytical flaw for building an argument that you, minus any of these caveats, can clearly do the same.....

quicklime · Apr 13, 2012

Toothpaste said:
In any event, it is not remotely unusual for a new author to think he/she is the exception to the rule, hence the desire to explain to said author that nine times out of ten, one isn't. KrazyKat is allowed to make whatever decisions he/she wants, and you are free to offer support in the face of the pragmatism of the rest of the posters here. Personally, I think facts are more important than boosting self confidence at this stage (not that anyone has been negative or tearing down KrazyKat in the first place - advice and sharing the reality of the industry isn't being mean, it's actually trying to be helpful).

I think, regarding the part in bold, that you are an optimist, by several orders of magnitude.

BethS · Apr 13, 2012

quicklime said:
so you're essentially encouraging them based on "lottery odds"?

No, not at all.

I think that if a would-be author can write something wonderful that also conforms to industry standards for length and whatever else, then they are far, far better off doing that than trying to challenge the norm.

Sometimes, though, you end up with something that doesn't slot neatly into place, and can't be forced to fit. And that's where it gets difficult. If it's very, very good, then chances are greatly increased that an exception will be made. If it's not...well, you'll find that out, too.

I think this all started when someone claimed that Rothfuss's editor would never have offered him a contract if he hadn't won the award. And in one sense, that's true, because it was the award that got him his first break. But by the time his manuscript landed on the editor's desk, the award was history and it was the story and the writing that convinced her.

But awards are not the only way. You can simply shoot out queries and send out your manuscript and hope someone discovers it in the slushpile.

Which is exactly what happened to Terry Goodkind, whose manuscript was considered too long even then, but his agent got him a great deal and he debuted in hard cover, something unheard of for a new fantasy author at that time.

Quickbread · Apr 13, 2012

BethS said:
Depending on the story, that may or may not be possible. You could not have done that with any of the stories I listed above.

Some stories just need a lot of room to tell.

Good points, all.

Krazykat · Apr 13, 2012

Thanks, everyone. There's some enlightening info in these new posts. Such as this:

Terie said:
Can I just point out that my YA fantasy series is pretty much one story in four volumes...and I've neither won any awards nor had any books published before this series.

The first book's story could stand alone, but there were plenty of unresolved threads.

The second book can sorta-kinda stand alone.

Book three ends on a cliff-hanger; therefore books three and four can't really stand alone, although it's conceivable they could stand as a pair.

This kind of thing is fairly common in the SF and F genres.

The key is that the first book needs to be able to stand alone. Once a publisher wants that, the rest of the series can be designed any way the author and editor decide to go.

FWIW, I pitched my series as a four-volume series from the outset because it was all one story arc. The synopsis that I sent in the submission packages was for the series, not just the first book. The publisher that picked it up contracted only book one at first, then once that was sorted, the editor asked to see book two and promptly offered a contract for the rest of the series.

Terie, do you remember exactly how you queried this?

As is probably the case most of the time, if I split this book in three parts, the first part certainly comes the closest to being able to stand alone. It's a very significant turning point, where there is a kind of closure. (Though I would think that anyone who got caught up in the story would be dying to know what becomes of the protagonist afterwards--but that should be a good thing, right?)

Hey, I know this isn't really the place to ask this, but how does one put multiple quotes in one reply?

(And BTW, I probably shouldn't even touch this subject, but who the heck revises their posts here even a tiny fraction of the amount they would revise and edit a story before they let someone else read it? Gosh, wish I had that kind of time!)

quicklime · Apr 13, 2012

some people consider their posts here their "storefront" and a reflection of their writing, so they edit a lot. Some just remember something they'd like to add. Some catch a typo they find particularly awkward; I just saw one this morning where someone put "pubic" instead of "public", for example.

as for the multiquote, just clicking the multiquote button on all but the one you actually reply to has worked for me, then hitting quote for the final one. The multiquote button turns yellow, if i recall correctly, to indicate the post was selected.

Toothpaste · Apr 13, 2012

Krazykat said:
(And BTW, I probably shouldn't even touch this subject, but who the heck revises their posts here even a tiny fraction of the amount they would revise and edit a story before they let someone else read it? Gosh, wish I had that kind of time!)

We don't have evidence that your extremely long book is taughtly written. What we do have evidence of is that you write very long posts that aren't. I used myself as an example, I write long books, and heck, I tend to (not always) write long posts. There is a precedent that posts in a forum reflect the writing in the author's work.

There isn't necessarily a correlation, but it's not so far fetched to think there might be is there?

I understand why you might be a little sarcastic: "Gosh, wish I had that kind of time", as what I and some posters are implying is that maybe your book needn't be as long as it is and that might help solve your problem. I too would get a bit defensive at someone without having read my work making a judgement on it. But I'm not doing it to be mean. I'm seriously trying to relate to you, and maybe suggest that you could edit things down even more and make your book even more awesome. Just as others suggested to me, and just as when I did, it did make my book even more awesome.

If you disagree, and think that your book is the length it needs to be, dude, go for it. My first novel (even after a judicious edit suggested by an agent before she took me on) was twice as long as the accepted word count for the genre, and it got agented and published.

I'm just making an observation with the possibility it might help you out.

It might not though, and that's cool too.

Old Hack · Apr 13, 2012

Krazykat said:
(And BTW, I probably shouldn't even touch this subject, but who the heck revises their posts here even a tiny fraction of the amount they would revise and edit a story before they let someone else read it? Gosh, wish I had that kind of time!)

It's not a question of revision, it's a question of writerly competence.

Speaking as an editor, comments here give me a really good idea of how publication-ready the various members are. I don't expect every comment to be pristine and intriguing (although it's nice when they are): but it's relatively easy to get an idea of a writer's voice, talent, and level of expertise from reading the comments they make in such a relaxed arena.

In my experience, people who are overly verbose or purple in their message-board comments will tend to show those same traits in their fiction; people who don't punctuate well here tend to have the same problems in their work; people who refuse to consider suggestions about their work here will probably be a nightmare to edit when it comes to publication; and so on. We all give away far more than we realise when we comment here, which is both a good and a bad thing.

kaitie · Apr 13, 2012

Lol. I'm a post-editor, though usually for the long ones. If I just say two sentences about something, or if what I'm saying isn't particularly important, then I don't care so much, but anytime I write a paragraph or two I reread it once or twice. I guess I'm just a tad obsessive in that way. I have also been known to reread notes to myself, which just seems silly.

That being said, I'm like Toothpaste. I tend to be overly verbose here, and the same is true of my writing. I'm getting better, but it's something I actively contend with and part of the reason I reread posts--I know chances are something will be cut.

Terie · Apr 13, 2012

Krazykat said:
Terie, do you remember exactly how you queried this?

Yes, of course I remember.

Oh, you mean you'd like me to tell you?

My queries tend to focus on character and conflict, so that's what the query was. I included a line to the effect that AutumnQuest was the first in a four-book series but could stand alone. (The story came to me as a four-book series, so there was never any intent on my part for it to be anything else.)

I included the series synopsis (which, incidentally, is 399 words for all four books) and whatever sample pages were asked for -- the first chapter, the first however many pages, the entire MS in one or two cases, including the publisher who contracted it.

Oh, and FWIW, I review and edit my posts before posting and often go back later to fix typos or clarify something that still didn't come out right. As a professional writer, I want my writing to be a reflection of my skills.

Jamiekswriter · Apr 13, 2012

Terie said:
Y

I included the series synopsis (which, incidentally, is 399 words for all four books)

Wow. I'm in total awe. I can't get under 4 pages for one book synopsis.

Krazykat · Apr 13, 2012

Toothpaste said:
I too would get a bit defensive at someone without having read my work making a judgement on it. But I'm not doing it to be mean. I'm seriously trying to relate to you, and maybe suggest that you could edit things down even more and make your book even more awesome. Just as others suggested to me, and just as when I did, it did make my book even more awesome.I'm just making an observation with the possibility it might help you out.

Thanks, Toothpaste—I do appreciate that!

(And I do revise and edit my posts—I'm very picky about typos—I just meant nowhere near to the extent that you would with a manuscript!!)

I’ve always heard that revising is half of the writer’s craft, and there are many brilliant writers whose first drafts are so horrific they would never let anyone else see them. I wrote everything by hand pretty much through college, and for obvious reasons I did a lot more editing in my head before putting anything on the paper.

After I started writing on a computer, my modus operandi changed. I switch off the editor entirely and free write, putting in absolutely everything that comes to me (which most writing instructors say you should do with a first draft). Then I set it aside. When I come back to it, I think of revising as being like a sculptor with a block of marble, cutting away everything that isn’t part of the statue. But if the block isn’t large enough to include the statue’s outstretched arm or the horse's head, you’re in big trouble. I’ve learned that the hard way too many times; it’s a thousand times harder to go back and add something than it is to cut.

FWIW, when I quickly read through the synopsis of the manuscript I’ve been talking about here, it’s clear that the book is long because a lot happens in it.

But when it comes to how many words it takes to tell a story, you also can’t ignore the fact that many diverse styles are equally correct. One of the books I most admire is Gene Wolfe’s Book of the Long Sun. And I bet you anything that if I posted a passage from that book here, and didn’t tell anyone who wrote it, a lot of you would want to cut half of it out!

Wolfe is considered by many to be one of the finest writers in the genre, but I know very well that many people prefer sci fi—and commercial fiction in general—to be written in simple, direct prose that focuses on the action. And of course there’s a place for that, too—it’s just a matter of taste.

Terie said:
Yes, of course I remember.

Oh, you mean you'd like me to tell you?

My queries tend to focus on character and conflict, so that's what the query was. I included a line to the effect that AutumnQuest was the first in a four-book series but could stand alone. (The story came to me as a four-book series, so there was never any intent on my part for it to be anything else.)

I included the series synopsis (which, incidentally, is 399 words for all four books) and whatever sample pages were asked for -- the first chapter, the first however many pages, the entire MS in one or two cases, including the publisher who contracted it.

Thank you, Terie!!!

RKLipman · Apr 13, 2012

I don't think adding is inherently more difficult than cutting; revisions are hellish any way you slice them. I added 25,000 words to my last project between drafts. It sucked donkey balls. But I'm pretty sure I'd have been every bit as miserable if I'd had to cut 25K, as well.

Toothpaste · Apr 13, 2012

No one is debating that a long book can work. You don't need to convince us of this. I've read many a long book, even literary long books (believe it or not, I read and enjoy pretty much any genre - so long as it's well handled). People are questioning whether YOUR long book works. And the only one who can answer that is you. And I think you've made your answer.

So instead of trying to sneak around the word count or trick agents or what have you, I think you have to just own it, and trust that you are that exception to the rule. You still have a tough journey ahead of you, because you will be rejected on word count alone. But hopefully you'll find that one agent/publisher who looks past that and gets to know the work itself. Heck, there might even be more than one. But you just need to know that you are facing a tougher road ahead than others.

Krazykat · Apr 13, 2012

Toothpaste said:
You still have a tough journey ahead of you, because you will be rejected on word count alone.

Um . . . please don't take offense or anything, Toothpaste, but I'm puzzled why you wanted to add this. Knowing this all too well was the reason I started this post, remember? :chair

In any case, thanks to some of the folks who posted on here, there is at least a possibility that I may have found a solution.

Hey, I just wanted to say I really do appreciate everyone who gets on here and tries so hard to help. It takes a lot of time and effort—you guys are terrific for doing this. :hooray:

Old Hack · Apr 13, 2012

Krazykat said:
Um . . . please don't take offense or anything, Toothpaste, but I'm puzzled why you wanted to add this. Knowing this all too well was the reason I started this post, remember?

My guess is that Toothpaste included that warning because it's true, and because she was summarising where you are now and the work you have ahead of you.

In any case, thanks to some of the folks who posted on here, there is at least a possibility that I may have found a solution.

"Thanks to some of the folks"? You might not like all the advice you've received in this thread, but everyone who has posted here has freely given their time to help you. It seems churlish to only thank some of them.

Hey, I just wanted to say I really do appreciate everyone who gets on here and tries so hard to help. It takes a lot of time and effort—you guys are terrific for doing this.

Yes, it does take a lot of time and effort. Just as it took a lot of time and effort for the people who took part in the thread you started about a very similar thing in January, where you received pretty much the same advice: that you tend to verbosity, that splitting a book up into three might or might not work, and that such a long word-count is going to give you problems.

In future, do not start multiple threads on the same subject; it wastes our members' time and won't get you any better, or any different, advice.

Locking this now.

Lesser of Two Evils?

Terie

Writer is as Writer does

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

BethS

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

BethS

Quickbread

Krazykat

Positivilly Movillis . . .

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

kaitie

With great power comes

Terie

Writer is as Writer does

Jamiekswriter

USA Today Bestselling Author

Krazykat

Positivilly Movillis . . .

RKLipman

Seasoned Veteran of Lurking

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

Krazykat

Positivilly Movillis . . .

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman