A GAME OF THRONES (HBO) -- POSSIBLE SPOILERS

Parametric said:

I think Renly's death is in keeping with the general level of violent death in the series. The problem, imo, is that only 0.000001% of the billion characters in the series are gay. If there were hundreds of gay characters - some who lived, some who died, some who suffered, some who prospered - then it wouldn't seem so problematic. As it is, the only real, loving LGBT relationship we see in the series ends in a horrible death.

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Yeah - that's a great elaboration of my point.

I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about the TV series, and as I said, I haven't read the books. What I really liked in season one was the unsparing tragedy (Eddard Stark getting killed, for example), because it broke from the "good always triumphs" epic formula, and slashed wide open the possibilities for where the story could go. That, and the diversity of characters - Varys the eunuch, Tyrion the little guy, women in positions of power (Cersei, Daenaerys), a gay character, etc..

Season 2 is a bit of a let down from that as Tyrion's anti-heroness (anti-heroism?) has become a bit :wink-wink: and the female characters seem more sexualized, a little cliché; with the exception of the awesome female warrior Brienne who wins the fight with Loras.

Since my biggest fantasy is dashed - Renly breaking through as a gay epic hero - my hopes for the series are:

a) Cersei stays ruthless and conniving.
b) Tyrion gets thrown back in a jam so he's not floating above everyone with his moral superiority.
c) Daenaerys comes back with her dragons and whoops everyone's ass.

(some) SPOILERS!
There will in fact be several more bi/gay/lesbian characters, who will face a plethora of different fates.

Cersei's story is far more complex than it seems, as is Tyrion's.

In a society such as this one, many women must use sexuality as a weapon. On the other hand, there are exceptions including Yara and Brienne. Plus of course Danaerys.

Don't get too attached to almost any character, but I can tell you as of the end of the latest book the following folks are still alive:

Brienne, Tyrion, Cersei, Danaerys, Jon Snow, Samwell, Osha, Hodor, Arya, Sansa, Margery, Loras, Stannis, Melisandre, Jaime, Rickon, Littlefinger, Davos, Bran, Theon, Varys, Robyn Arryn, Walder Frey, Myrcella, Tommen, and Barristan. Oh and all three dragons.

Some of them are no longer...complete.
END OF SPOILERS

I love Brienne.

A few years back, some friends and I tried to write what we thought would be the best closing paragraph for the entire series. How we'd like to see the books end. Two stuck in my mind:

1. "Amidst the ruins of King's Landing, the barbarian horde screamed its triumph as their leader--the most feared warlord in what was once the seven kingdoms--appeared before them on the broken battlements of the red keep. He raised his axe, and as one they screamed aloud his name...

HODOR!"

2. "Long live Queen Brienne!"

Commenting on who is alive and who is not by the end of book 5 >>>>> I don't believe Jon Snow is dead. I do think he's Azor A'hai reborn and will likely warg into Ghost until Melisandre can resurrect him. She's certainly capable of resurrection. <<<<

On Dany and her betrayals.... >>>Dany is so young in the books and sometimes I forget that. I don't think she's meant to rule in all honesty. I believe the other Targaryen boy they found in book 5 will rule and Dany will take on some kind of warrior role. She's proven a downright shitty ruler which she proved in Myreen. Besides, her destiny lies North of the Wall. She and Drogon will pwnz some white walkers! It is, after all, the song of Ice and Fire. >>>>

How I see things ending (or how I hope they end) >>>>> Targaryen kid as king. Tyrion as his hand. Brienne as the leader of the kingsguard. Jon and Dany hooking up (even though I prescribe to the theory that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son and will be Dany's nephew by blood--the Targaryens intermarried). Arya will either take over for Varys or be doing her own thing as a faceless (wo)man. Sansa, no idea. Jaime I don't see living. IMHO, he's destined to die a hero's death here.

Bran is a wildcard. Maybe he'll remain the greenseer? Sam will become Maester and serve out his time at the wall. Stannis? who knows. The Dorns? Who knows.

Cersei will probably perish along with Jaime.

Lots to consider. <<<<

Yeah, I've come to think it's impossible to minimise spoilers on these threads. The previous attempt at a spoiler-free thread didn't work. The books have been out way too long and most people have read them.

The alleged Aegon Targaryen is a fake, imo. There's no way a Targaryen with a better claim to the throne than Daenerys is going to show up in book five.

thothguard51 said:

Unless>>>Tyrion or Jon has a more legit claim...<<<

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Why Tyrion?

<<<< I don't think the kid is a fraud. I think he's the real deal. He was the king's son, right? The mad king's son? Aerys? If Tyrion thinks he's legit, I have no reason to distrust Tyrion's POV. I really don't see Dany ruling. She's can't make the hard decisions. Come in to a slave nation that's been functioning AS a slave nation for centuries and try to change things? To the detriment OF the slaves? Martin made several very good arguments in his book that Myreen should have stayed the way it was.

Furthermore, she was too busy sitting in fishpools, adjusting her courtly pillows, wandering the royal grounds, pining after her stupid lover to care for the two dragons. So, now they're out, untamed, and making nests in pyramids. Someone will kill them. It's sad, really. Chaining them underground? Smart move.

She was a terrible ruler because she was all heart. It's one of her strengths and flaws. You'd be better off putting Sansa on the throne for all the good Dany has done. The kid has official backing on the mainland. Dany might get some Dothraki now that she's gone "backwards to go forward."

If she does become ruler of Westeros, she'll need someone like Tyrion to help her make the hard decisions that she's been unable to make. I love Dany, don't get me wrong, but she's not a queen. She has more to offer as a dragon-writing military leader of some sort.

I will say this, she does have room to grow. Maybe she'll turn things around. No idea . <<<<

There's a popular theory that Tyrion is the son of Aerys Targaryen and Joanna Lannister. But even if both the Targaryen theories are true, neither Tyrion nor Jon would have a better legal claim than Daenerys - they'd both be illegitimate. Legally, Aegon would have the best claim, then Daenerys. After that it's all about force of arms, and I think Daenerys would win that battle.

Parametric said:

There's a popular theory that Tyrion ......

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That's right! I remember that now. And I agree that Dany could bring the big guns. If she can get the Dothroki behind her and hook up (hopefully not literally) with Victarion and his ships, she might be looking to land in the next book.

I totally forgot about Tyrion and that possibility.

OK. Since we're all kosher with spoilers...

There's yet another theory...that has Dany ruling with Tyrion and Jon, together, one rider for each dragon. Tyrion is the child of Aerys Targaryen and Joanna Lannister; Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Because the Targaryens intermarried, this would be no problem to Dany.

Frankly, I think that would be all sorts of awesome.

Wow, lots of awesome theories going around. Do you really think that... >>> the other two dragons, besides Drogon, will actually survive? I hope they do, but it's not looking good.

Also, Tyrion being a Targaryen would be interesting. For those who read book 5, did Tyrion interact with Drogon at all or the dragons? I can't recall. That might be a "tell," as dragons are supposed to be what? More friendly toward Targaryens? <<<<

Dragons are said to respond better with Targaryens but

<<< I don't think Tyrion interacted with them. It wasn't so straightforward for Quenten Martell (who had weak bloodline). Dany muses that Brown Ben Plumm might be able to ride a dragon with her (he claims distant relation too). My theory is that it is a type of warg powers that allow people to ride and control dragons, which we know are strong in the Stark family. >>>

As far as Tyrion's <<< parentage, I hope we've seen enough of mystery bastards and secret claims, though it might explain how Tywin is beyond cruel - not only is his son a dawrf that killed the wife, but he could be the offspring of infidelity. ASOIF wiki says he has white-blonde hair, so that's vague enough for either father. >>>

CrastersBabies said:

Wow, lots of awesome theories going around. Do you really think that...

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Yes, I do. The official coat-of-arms of House Targaryen is a three-headed dragon. From the wiki: Their device is a three-headed dragon breathing flames, red on black, and their words are "Fire and Blood."

(Is there an episode where we don't hear Dany say those words? Tee hee.)

So that's where my money is.

thothguard51 said:

I was slightly disappointed at the ending of episode 4. I had hoped we would see the outcome of Melisandre's demon summoning.

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The outcome should be worth the wait. One thing that I wasn't certain about: was it clear where Davos (the Onion Knight) had taken the Red Woman? In the books, it's in his POV, so it's very clear. But what about in last night's episode?

thothguard51 said:

Thinking about it though, Cat and Bree should have more time next week. Hopefully...

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Oh yes. There will definitely be more about Cat, and about Brienne. The show has a ton of characters they have to spotlight, so each episode they have to choose who gets to shine and who gets shadowed. Both of these women have important roles to play.

thothguard51 said:

Littlefinger, is still not back to his witty self. In fact, he truly looked hurt when Cat pulled the dagger on him, as if he expected her to welcome him with open arms. Shows how delusional he is about his Cat fantasy. Still, good to see him plotting.

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Just wait.

thothguard51 said:

As to Dani, its good she has gotten to her city of bones. Now things should get interesting with her story line, at least for this season...

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Hell yes. Loved the correction of her pronunciation of Qarth.

thothguard51 said:

I loved seeing the Animals Keep. Just as dreary and dark as I imagined.

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Animals Keep? Do you mean Harrinhal? If so, totally agreed. There's a place that looks like it's cursed, no?

thothguard51 said:

As I said earlier, we haven't had any shocking deaths yet this season. Last season, the only shocking death really was Ned, but we should have a few more shocker this season for those who have not read the books. Mums the word...

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Well, just like last season there was a build up before Ned met his fate, this season seems to be following suit. And, from what I've read, GRRM himself scripted a very important scene to come near the end of the season. I cannot WAIT for that one!

Very safe to say it's a poor bet to bet on any of the characters surviving to the very end.

thothguard51 said:

Let's see who did we not see this week, Jon, Jamie, Vary's, Bran, Theon. Did I miss anyone?

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Cersei. All the Night's Watch. Everyone at Winterfell. Everyone at the Pyke. Ros the prostitute (right? Unless she was the one doing the whipping?). Pycelle (although he was discussed).

I really enjoyed the scenes that were not in the book -- I admire how the creative talent is taking advantage of the different medium and using it to its advantage and choosing which characters to build (especially Robb) and which to let linger (Jaime, Dany) until it's their time.

Quite a good episode. Littlefinger is, yes, looking like more and more of a single-minded idiot with each scene. It's a real shame how much they've simplified him.

Sansa's showing a real, hard root of strength there, and I like it. Fairytales or not, she's a real Stark in this, and I can't help but feel her inner strength is more convincing here than when we're in her head in the books. Being outside her POV seems to help.

Melisandre's scene at the end was good and creepy. They did a nice job of it, although I could have swore she squatted in the books, which I always thought had a more, I dunno, animal feel to it (even if it's technically a better pose to give birth in!).

Definitely looking forward to some more Brienne next episode, although given what's going to happen next, I can't help but wonder how they're going to make watchers care about her Fan reaction to her has been pretty excited and positive, but that's mostly readers and she's a bit of a favourite with a lot of people who know the books and get to read from her POV. I'm wondering how they're going to translate all that into the show, what with her stoic, silent exterior.

Oh, Tyrion. I really am getting quite a crush on Dinklage. I wonder how they'll handle

As someone who hasn't read the books, I thought last night's episode was both awesome and a bit hard to follow. I'm still not sure why the Lannisters rounded up Arya and the gang headed to The Wall to torture them. What information did they expect to get out of them? Nor could I figure out where Mellisandre was supposed to be going. I guess she's up to some mischief against Renly?

But both of the above were spectacular to watch. Just could use some contextual clues.

Picky points - it's getting a little dicey how much power Tyrion (and Cersei) have in the midst of Joffrey being King. For the sake of humanity, I'm glad Joffrey's not the only one running things, but the lines aren't clear, and Tyrion especially seems to be getting away with a lot as just the Hand.