Hounding After Hours

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LaurieD

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Just don't participate if it bugs you that much. The whole deal isn't to celebrate horror as a genre, period. We have tons of conventions for that. It's to celebrate and promote feminism in horror, which is a work in progress that only gets one month of recognition. I think it's important. If you disagree--fine. But I'd really rather you not be so dismissive of it.

This explains it.

I approach feminism in the opposite manner.

You know, I usually only smart off here - on any public forum in general. I avoid the political and current events threads and haven't said anything at all in the WiHM thread. I express my opinion in an open horror thread regarding an actual writing topic and am asked to not be dismissive, basically to not discuss my opinion.

How fantastic.
 

slcboston

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It's to celebrate and promote feminism in horror, which is a work in progress that only gets one month of recognition. I think it's important. If you disagree--fine. But I'd really rather you not be so dismissive of it.

That's not really the same thing as promoting women in horror.


While I am all for promoting an oft-overlooked segment - much the same way I'd support a women in sc-fi kind of thing, or a men in romance kind of thing - feminism is a particular socio-political standpoint, and regardless of whether I agree with it or not (and like most socio-political systems it has both its good points and bad), a month promoting such a view would not be something I'd support.

"Women" does not equal "feminism," nor the other way around.

That said, Laurie's got a valid point: we should ideally be someplace where it should not matter who writes what, and to a certain extent I sympathise with that.

But comments like Bri's, where she said she doesn't usually read female writers (but will read anything if it's got a good story? how do you know it has a good story if you don't generally pick up women writers?) highlights the fact that there is, still, a problem of perception out there.

As much as it would be great if we were at a place, societally, where the gender of an author does not matter, the truth of it is we aren't there yet.

I think it would be great if we were to eventually arrive at a place where it was no longer necessary to single out one group or another to make sure they get the recognition and respect they deserve.

But again, we aren't there yet.
 

slcboston

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And, with that...

Morning Hounds. Rearranged my upstairs office/bedroom/reading room last night, and have to say I am somewhat pleased with the results. Unfortunately, only did 2/3 of it, and the remaining 1/3 is now crying out to be done.

And I don't really see a way to do that in the space w/ the furniture I have.

:idea:
 

BigWords

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Everyone knows (or ought to know) that I don't care about the gender, political views, religion, sexual orientation or favorite song a writer has - none of that (and most of the other stuff as well) is irrelevant when you open a book. Everything must sit within the pages of the work at hand - just as a film has to stand on its' own merits separate from anything it is derived from, the director's reputation, and the cast. It is all about the work.

Now, when there are times where a certain subject can be examined in more depth than I would usually give that subject (and I can't think of a specific time when I did anything which examined the role of women in horror aside from a brief sideways comment in the threads about the representation of women, early in 2012) I am going to use the heightened awareness to see if I have anything I can add to the overall conversation. Feminism... doesn't really inspire me to put my thoughts on paper. It is divisive in many ways, and I keep feeling as if I shouldn't speak to it as I am male (yes, I know...), so I'm looking at the month as something different to what others might be approaching it as.

I'm not taking cues from others on this, so I'm going off in my own direction. *shrugs*
 

BigWords

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There's a burly Glaswegian chap who writes (or wrote) a staggering number of Mills & Boon romance novels under a flowery pen name. He has been featured in the British press a few times, almost always with a barely-concealed sneering at his success.

Which is another reason I have no respect for newspapers.
 

dolores haze

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There's a burly Glaswegian chap who writes (or wrote) a staggering number of Mills & Boon romance novels under a flowery pen name. He has been featured in the British press a few times, almost always with a barely-concealed sneering at his success.

He's being treated no differently from female romance writers then. What's his name or pen name, do you know?
 

slcboston

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Feminism is just the belief there should be equality of the sexes. Don't see what's controversial or problematic about that.

Difference between what it is on paper, and what it often becomes in practice. Same thing with Communism. On paper, Marx makes a lot of sense. In practice, it became something else entirely (in no small part to Marx's complete and utter failure to grasp human nature).


You're probably joking, but I'd be on board with that.

Only half-joking.


Per usual.

:D
 

slcboston

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Correction to above - Liverpudlian (I knew it was a working city, rather than somewhere more... well, my kind of places :D).

So, what's the difference then between Liverpool and Glasgow?

For those of us not in the know.

AnimatedQuestionMarkSmiley.gif
 

dolores haze

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One's in England, one's in Scotland, but they're quite similar. Both tough, working-class cities with very rough edges. Though I haven't been in either for years, so maybe they're a bit more civilized now. I'm from one of Glasgow's rougher edges *grin*
 

parumpdragon

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I saw this on FB and couldn't resist sharing it here. I love the dog's eyes :D

afunny_zps5b6233ea.png
 

soapdish

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Why not celebrate the genre as a whole? International Horror Writers month or something. Promoting ourselves and our work together, celebrating together we can accomlish so much more than pointing out the differences between us.
But...I celebrate horror as a whole EVERY day. Celebrating a particular sub group, whatever that sub group is is only breaking things down into a more specific focused look. If we weren't to break things down into groups, why bother with genre distinctions at all? Why not celebrate writing in general and not bother saying, horror, scifi, fantasy, romance etc.? Because breaking things down, looking for the differences (hard or soft) and where things differ or overlap or converge, and WHY is interesting, I think. :Shrug:



That's not really the same thing as promoting women in horror.
True. Not necessarily the same thing at all.
"Women" does not equal "feminism," nor the other way around.
And...to the extreme, there are probably some women who write/act/direct things that are really not about feminism at all, if you define feminism as the right to equality or a socio-political standpoint. In fact, there are probably some that reaffirm terrible messages about women. So, I guess it's *possible* you could celebrate a woman in horror and even be anti feminist in your acknowledgement. :idea:


That said, Laurie's got a valid point: we should ideally be someplace where it should not matter who writes what, and to a certain extent I sympathise with that.
As much as it would be great if we were at a place, societally, where the gender of an author does not matter, the truth of it is we aren't there yet.
But why? I think examining our differences is interesting. I think it only becomes a problem when it's used to make one group feel inferior because of them. And that's sorta what Laurie was talking about with the whole mom wars. It doesn't just happen with gender, but even within the gender. I still don't understand why we can't look at the differences and use them as a way to understand one another, though.
 

soapdish

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I'm seriously thinking there needs to be a Men in Romance month, too.


Just because.


:idea:
Yes. Sure, why not? I bet it would be fascinating. And I don't even read that much Romance. But it would still make interesting discourse.

I'm from one of Glasgow's rougher edges *grin*
:tongue Why am I not surprised by this?
 

BigWords

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One's in England, one's in Scotland, but they're quite similar. Both tough, working-class cities with very rough edges.

This. I know where I have to be... restrained. :D

See, I am not the type of person who blends in well, and when I go to either city (or, for that matter, parts of London) I have a very constrained behavior which is - not me. The pink shirts are a big no-no (though this might be changing. IDK), and my habits of grinning wildly and spouting obscure literary references have to be kept in check.

Also, no talk whatsoever of cartoons. AT ALL. You get punched for less.

I saw this on FB and couldn't resist sharing it here. I love the dog's eyes :D

afunny_zps5b6233ea.png

That caption would be precisely a thousand times funnier if it mentioned Two Girls And A Cup.

Whatever you do, DO NOT GOOGLE THAT.

But...I celebrate horror as a whole EVERY day.

I celebrate all maligned genres on a daily basis. See where it gets me...

Celebrating a particular sub group, whatever that sub group is is only breaking things down into a more specific focused look. If we weren't to break things down into groups, why bother with genre distinctions at all?

I've been thinking about this more, and it makes me think of Illuminating Shadows (excellent book, BTW) - you can watch a film as entertainment. Then look at the cinematography for allusions... Look at the script for references. You keep breaking the film down into the component parts to gain a greater understanding of what you are seeing. It is an excellent way to gain a deeper appreciation for the film. This is... sorta similar.

IDK. You guys are confusing me. Not difficult at the moment, but still...
 

slcboston

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I still don't understand why we can't look at the differences and use them as a way to understand one another, though.

I never said there was anything wrong with examining our differences.


The ideal I hope for - though don't ever actually expect to see - is a world where the differences don't matter. Where everyone can be as different as they want to be, and still accepted, and not viewed as something "other" just because they wear green and orange plaid pants.

Which is just a harmless "for instance" and not a sartorial choice on my part.

The ideal here is to be seen solely as a writer, not an "x-category" writer, in terms of personal background of the writer. (Genre is another thing entirely.) Which, having thought on it, it seems to me that almost all the genres have some version of this problem, where the majority of its writers are assumed to be of one genre or another. Only genre I can think of, off the top of my head, where this does not seem to apply is the mystery genre, which seems to balance out between men and women.

The only exception to this is if you are drawing from something in particular in your background in your writing: for example, Lily's being an ex-nun actually has some bearing on her books. Then it matters and is worth exploring.

Otherwise you risk falling into another trap, that is assuming that because a writer is "x-category" that they will have certain things to say that apply to what they write, as categorical themes, rather than seeing whatever themes and messages they are writing about as personal.

As I said, I am all in favor of upholding an overlooked group and saying "you should check these out," but I am much less comfortable making broad statements about the characterization of those groups one way or the other.

Also being mindful that a large part of this is culturally driven, as I can attest to in the different views I was subject to being a house-husband in Sweden versus being one here.

:)
 

soapdish

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I never said there was anything wrong with examining our differences.


The ideal I hope for - though don't ever actually expect to see - is a world where the differences don't matter.
It's that part that I don't get. Why wouldn't they matter? If they don't matter, then why examine them in the first place? :Shrug:
 

soapdish

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I am going to use the heightened awareness to see if I have anything I can add to the overall conversation. Feminism... doesn't really inspire me to put my thoughts on paper. It is divisive in many ways, and I keep feeling as if I shouldn't speak to it as I am male (yes, I know...), so I'm looking at the month as something different to what others might be approaching it as.

I'm not taking cues from others on this, so I'm going off in my own direction. *shrugs*
I feel like I have little to contribute to the feminism thing, too, actually. And I AM a woman. :tongue But that's partly why I enjoy reading/looking at what others have to say. I'm hoping at some point my views and feelings will solidify a bit more. But maybe they won't ever. Still won't stop me from investigating it though.

And I think what you're attempting to do, go off in your own direction, is great. That, to me, is how WIHM is BEST celebrated.

I usually just do something lame like recommend some books I've read lately. I'd like to be more...poignant, but I always chicken out. :gone:

I've been thinking about this more, and it makes me think of Illuminating Shadows (excellent book, BTW) - you can watch a film as entertainment. Then look at the cinematography for allusions... Look at the script for references. You keep breaking the film down into the component parts to gain a greater understanding of what you are seeing. It is an excellent way to gain a deeper appreciation for the film. This is... sorta similar.
Yeah, similar for sure.
 

LaurieD

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I usually just do something lame like recommend some books I've read lately. I'd like to be more...poignant, but I always chicken out. :gone:

Actually, if you want to actually do something for a writer - male or female - this is the way to do it, imo.

Blog hops, loud posts about a perceived bias in the industry, etc just sound like a lot of noise that I can't wait to stop and wish I could mute.

What's poignancy have to do with it?

I don't get it.

Just like I don't get most of this thing.

I still keep coming back to the same conclusion.

If a girl wants to run with the boys, she needs to lace up her sneaks and get off the porch. Talking about it isn't going to make it happen. Talking about how unfair or biased she sees the run isn't going to make it happen. Talking about how hard it is, likewise, not going to make it happen.

There ya go.

That's my challenge to everyone who thinks the deck is somehow stacked against women who produce creative horror - instead of shouting about what you think about it, produce some bit of creative horror this month that knocks the horror industry on its collective ass.
 

BigWords

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Actually, if you want to actually do something for a writer - male or female - this is the way to do it, imo.

Blog hops, loud posts about a perceived bias in the industry, etc just sound like a lot of noise that I can't wait to stop and wish I could mute.

You might want to avoid my blog during February... :D

Oooh - a mute button. *thinks* I'm gonna see if I can find a plug-in which turns all the text invisible for people who don't like the posts...
 

LaurieD

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A lot of the noise sounds a lot like a kid trying to convince a parent that they really, really will get A's and B's on their report card, just please, please, please let them have their video games back/sleep over at someone's house on a school night/stay up an extra hour.

Doesn't do a thing for me.

Stop talking about it and prove it.

A kid wants a new/extended privilege? Then they need to show me they're ready by mastering their present responsibilities.

Women are getting overlooked in the industry? Show me some books that don't jump tracks from horror to romance, then into some weird LKH mish-mash of the two and stop waving the discrimination flag.
 

soapdish

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If I said, where you aren't judged on them, will that clear it up?

:)
Yes. :D

Blog hops, loud posts about a perceived bias in the industry, etc just sound like a lot of noise that I can't wait to stop and wish I could mute.
Yeah, but you can mute them. You just don't read/listen/promote them. And nothing wrong with saying you'd like them to stop. That's your opinion.

Personally, I only take issue with the ones where it sounds like the person is just regurgitating arguments and stuff that they've heard other talking about, without really having anything unique to add, or their own experiences to draw from. Which is why I typically don't talk about biases in the industry (I assume you mean sexism type stuff). Because I don't personally see it there. Doesn't mean I don't think it's there, it probably is, but I can't offer up anything on it since I don't see it.

If I'm going to regurgitate, I'd rather just do a link roud-up and say, "hey, look what I found that's interesting." :D
 
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