Same sex attraction & locker rooms

Deepthought · Jan 20, 2015

I saw this:
http://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-solution-to-the-gender-barrier-problem-in-homosexuality
The question was oddly worded, but the point was of a paradox of sorts: Males and females have separate places (restrooms, locker rooms, etc.) in society exclusive to them for whatever reason (privacy, safety, etc.) But with same-sex attraction, people lose the privacy in those places; what is the solution? (You need an account to see all the answers and discussion, but I can just post what was written there if it pertains here.) It seemed that the general consensus was that there is no true solution. Also that males going to the females' areas was considered much more negatively due to historical evidence (males raping females more than females raping males, or male raping males.)

Are there any articles to read on the subject? Is there a formal name for it?

DancingMaenid · Jan 20, 2015

I think ideas about privacy and sex/gender-segregation stem from a heteronormative view of gender, but I also think they're a little more complicated than just being about women avoiding lustful gazes from men and vice versa. I think there's a larger idea in place that people are naturally more comfortable doing intimate things or being in a state of undress around people of the same sex or gender. Part of that notion stems from the assumption that men will be attracted to women (and perhaps vice versa, though women's sexual desires tend to be minimized more). But at the same time, I sometimes see people being a little squeamish about parents being naked around their opposite-sex children, too, even if there's nothing sexual implied in the interaction. Some of that may be because nudity between people of different sexes is often regarded as sexual, which brings us back to heteronormativity. I'm not sure if that's all there is to it, though.

But then, this all leaves trans people out of the equation. There are plenty of transphobic people out there who equate trans women with men in dresses and don't want trans people to be able to use the bathrooms or locker rooms associated with their gender. But I think among people who understand what it means to be trans, a trans woman in a woman's restroom is going to be received differently (and welcomed more) than a cis man, even if the trans woman is a lesbian and has male genitalia. So I think there's still an underlying idea that it's less embarrassing or vulnerable to do intimate things like using the bathroom or getting changed when around people of the same gender, regardless of sexuality or physical sex.

I think perceived safety definitely factors into it, since a lot of women have experienced unpleasant interactions with men and are taught to regard men as potential aggressors.

But really, I think a universal solution is going to be hard unless more straight, cis men and women decide they're comfortable with unisex bathrooms. The ideal, in my opinion, would be to offer enough unisex bathrooms with sufficient privacy that just about anyone can use them.

MacAllister · Jan 20, 2015

Oh good grief.

This "problem" smacks hard of "gay panic" -- that is, it's a made-up problem. People who are neither heterosexual nor cis-gendered in locker rooms simply do not actually constitute a problem, and as such, this doesn't actually need a solution.

As a long-time athlete in high-school and college, and beyond, the last thing I was ever thinking about in any locker room was hooking up. Anyone who's so narcissistic that they're convinced that any queer person in their same-sex locker room must be staring at them lustfully has problems that a private shower isn't going to solve.

Roxxsmom · Jan 20, 2015

My husband had a man ask him out in the locker room one time (at the student rec center when we were in grad school). He said no thanks, and that was the end of it. Seemed a bit weird (like Mac said, that's the last place most people are likely to think about hooking up), and I don't think this is normal behavior (he says it's the only time it's ever happened to him). But he shrugged it off.

It's never occurred to me to worry about whether or not any or all of the other women in locker rooms or rest rooms and so on are gay, straight, bi, transgender, or whatever. It just doesn't bother me.

My main concern re the availability of private areas in locker rooms for changing, or of singleton rest rooms (an issue that's come up recently on our campus with reference specifically to people who are transgender or not binary and don't feel comfortable using gendered bathrooms) is to provide places where transgender or gay people can be comfortable if they feel awkward in a mixed area where others can see them partially or completely undressed.

For that matter, I support their existence for cisgendered and straight people who feel shy also. Some people are less comfortable undressing in front of others of their own gender, or peeing in a trough in front of others of their own gender, regardless of anyone's orientation. I dated a guy for years who confessed that he'd only use a urinal in a public restroom under extreme duress (much preferred peeing in a stall), and one of my best friends in the dorms always showered late at night after most everyone else had gone to bed because our dorm showers had curtains but a common changing area, and she hated being naked in front of other women (she is straight). This wasn't from fear of gay people checking them out. Just their personalities.

MacAllister · Jan 20, 2015

Personal shyness is a different issue than "what if a gay person is staring at my hot bod!" and I do agree with you, there, Roxxsmom.

Fruitbat · Jan 20, 2015

I assume there have been people in locker rooms who were attracted to the same sex as the other people in the locker rooms as long as there have been locker rooms. So I don't think it's really a problem.

Rhoda Nightingale · Jan 21, 2015

I *hated* locker rooms, and would always change for gym class in a bathroom stall with the door closed and locked, and walk as quickly as possible with my head down to get the fuck out as soon as I was done. Hated it. Also took a lot of flack for hating it. "What's your problem? It's just us girls." Didn't help.

I'll concede that there are a myriad of reasons why someone might feel uncomfortable with shared nudity spaces of any kind, and yes, can we PLEASE come up with a solution so people like me don't have to deal with it and aren't ridiculed for it?

I've wondered if this was an issue with me simply because I was a closeted teen, but I've had issued with shared nudity spaces since long before I figured myself out. So I'd say it's not an orientation/sexuality related problem, but it's definitely A problem.

Melanii · Jan 21, 2015

^^^^ I ALWAYS use a bathroom stall or change behind a curtain. I like girls actually, but RL nakedness in general freaks me out; so I never pay attention to it.

Usher · Jan 21, 2015

Nudity does not equal sex and that's what needs to change in society the thought that a nude person must be after a bonk.

I'm quite capable of being nude with a man or a lesbian or a bi person and not touching them or going behind the lockers for sex.

Maryn · Jan 21, 2015

FWIW, the three paid-membership gyms in my city that I've been to all had private changing rooms for women in addition to the more public ones most used. (No idea what the men had, and Mr. Maryn doesn't remember.)

There was an interesting cultural difference in how open women were about nudity in the locker room. One was very modest and everybody wrapped up or covered up ASAP. Its showers were individual stalls with curtains, and you never saw more than a glimpse of nudity. At the other two one might have whole conversations with strangers while standing naked, and the main showers were gang-style. Were there lesbian or bi women there? No doubt. Did anybody hit on me in the locker room? Never. It wasn't a place where you hooked up.

If you wanted to get to know somebody better, you did it at the pool, the resistance equipment room, the free weights room, at the treadmill or stair climbers, the hot pool--all places where people were dressed. It would have been creepy in the locker room.

All those locker rooms, built in the 70s and 80s, had accommodations for those needing privacy for showering or dressing. It's curious to me that apparently others don't. Are the facilities old?

My trans daughter is a member at a gym in Boston. I have no idea what the accommodations are like, but she's not reported any problems, except her usual laziness about exercise.

Maryn, not seeing a problem

JimmyB27 · Jan 21, 2015

I'm shy undressing in front of myself, let alone anyone else, of any gender and any sexual orientation. But that has nothing to do with the supposed 'problem' of a hypothetical gay guy letching over me. If that did happen, I'd be more worried about him than me. Probably something wrong with his eyesight, the poor chap.

slhuang · Jan 21, 2015

In college we had unisex bathrooms in my dorm (private stalls) and unisex dressing rooms for theatre (nothing private at all). None of it was a big deal. A unisex changing room was slightly weird for about the first 5 minutes, because of what we're all used to, and then it was mundane. I agree with DancingMaenid that we have really strange ingrained ideas about gender, as a society. (Oh, and I'll add that shy people could go to the restroom to change if they desired, but AFAIK if people did it it was always about shyness, not about other genders being present. I never heard of anyone who cared about that part.)

And if you're considering the question as a math problem, as DancingMaenid also said, it's way more complicated than only male/female.

Locker rooms and changing rooms aren't exactly sexy places; nobody's going to look around trying to ogle. If someone stares or something, that's rude regardless of gender identity and sexual orientation.

Deepthought · Jan 21, 2015

I don't think that it is an issue for most people as evidenced by the responses of people's anecdotes, but it is just that. If nudity in such areas is not a problem, then nudity in unisex areas is not a problem either, as it is the same thing. My understanding is that for most part, such rooms are for privacy, but if it is unisex, then there really is no need for privacy from anyone, as it is public. Therefore, a nude culture would be fair for everybody. It is the only way I can think of.
But this opens another can of worms. If someone exposes themselves to another, it is considered wrong. But in nude culture, everyone is doing it. One is a sexual offender, the other is some random. It is simply the manner in which one is doing it. It is a matter of intent. Many nudist proponents say that nudity does not have to be sexual. But for some, it is. From somewhere, "If someone puts things on public display, people will go window shopping." People will ogle, and one can't do anything about it, as it isn't actually harassment. They shouldn't stare, but it will happen. And going there, what about age? If a closeted pedo is checking a kid out, what can anyone do about it? Nothing, really. That's the problem with nude culture, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most nudists are desensitized enough so that they won't be sexually excited by nudity, while other people are when people are wearing more. I think this ties to the notion that "womens' chests are sexualized, mens' not so much." There are general ideas of beauty and attractiveness that people in general share. In nudist culture, those things are de-sexualized. If what used to be attractive is no longer sexualized, an arm or a leg is like a breast, then what is used to measure the attractiveness of someone? The same things? People might not be as attracted to others as much due to the desensitization. In sexualized America, people are being increasingly desensitized; what used to be a big deal (like wearing something above the knees in the old days for a woman) is considered a normal thing now. It seems to me that people are moving towards a nudist culture, although not consciously.

kuwisdelu · Jan 21, 2015

Oh my. So many things here...

Deepthought said:
If nudity in such areas is not a problem, then nudity in unisex areas is not a problem either, as it is the same thing. My understanding is that for most part, such rooms are for privacy, but if it is unisex, then there really is no need for privacy from anyone, as it is public.

I'm not understanding how public restrooms are for privacy just because they're divided by gender. Being around only people of the same gender is no more "private" to me than being around people of both genders. Stalls and curtains and such are for privacy, sure, but the general space is not.

But this opens another can of worms. If someone exposes themselves to another, it is considered wrong. But in nude culture, everyone is doing it. One is a sexual offender, the other is some random. It is simply the manner in which one is doing it. It is a matter of intent. Many nudist proponents say that nudity does not have to be sexual. But for some, it is.

Of course. Context is everything. It's not either-or. I don't think that's too difficult to understand. After all, we somehow consider underwear to be closer to nudity than bathing suits, even if they cover exactly as much skin.

From somewhere, "If someone puts things on public display, people will go window shopping." People will ogle, and one can't do anything about it, as it isn't actually harassment. They shouldn't stare, but it will happen. And going there, what about age? If a closeted pedo is checking a kid out, what can anyone do about it? Nothing, really. That's the problem with nude culture, I think.

That's the problem with all cultures. People will always ogle. You think clothed people don't ogle other clothed people? People will check other people out regardless of whether they're clothed or nude. A pedophile checking out a nude child is no different from a pedophile checking out a clothed child.

There are general ideas of beauty and attractiveness that people in general share. In nudist culture, those things are de-sexualized. If what used to be attractive is no longer sexualized, an arm or a leg is like a breast, then what is used to measure the attractiveness of someone? The same things? People might not be as attracted to others as much due to the desensitization.

Huh? That doesn't make any sense at all. Do you need to see someone naked before you can judge how attractive they are to you? I don't, and I don't know anyone who does. Judging attractiveness has nothing whatsoever to do with nudity.

In sexualized America, people are being increasingly desensitized; what used to be a big deal (like wearing something above the knees in the old days for a woman) is considered a normal thing now. It seems to me that people are moving towards a nudist culture, although not consciously.

I don't see that at all. We're still highly sexualizing everything.

Deepthought · Jan 21, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
Oh my. So many things here...

I'm not understanding how public restrooms are for privacy just because they're divided by gender. Being around only people of the same gender is no more "private" to me than being around people of both genders. Stalls and curtains and such are for privacy, sure, but the general space is not.

I think it is because members of the other gender don't generally show their body to the other, because they assume that members of their own gender are not attracted and the others are. Therefore, they make a distinction. Without a distinction, it has no purpose.

Of course. Context is everything. It's not either-or. I don't think that's too difficult to understand. After all, we somehow consider underwear to be closer to nudity than bathing suits, even if they cover exactly as much skin.

Yes. But that means that any reaction is purely psychological. Therefore, any adverse effects felt by someone are not real, only perceived. They do not have to take any of it in a bad way.

That's the problem with all cultures. People will always ogle. You think clothed people don't ogle other clothed people? People will check other people out regardless of whether they're clothed or nude. A pedophile checking out a nude child is no different from a pedophile checking out a clothed child.

True, but depending on how someone dresses, they will be ogled more or less. One who wears less is looked at more, all else being equal.

Huh? That doesn't make any sense at all. Do you need to see someone naked before you can judge how attractive they are to you? I don't, and I don't know anyone who does. Judging attractiveness has nothing whatsoever to do with nudity.

One can still tell if someone is attractive. I mean that specific body parts are sexualized, but if they change and are longer sexualized, the differentiation disappears.

I don't see that at all. We're still highly sexualizing everything.

And we are wearing less and less as time goes by. When there's nothing left to take off, I wonder what would happen.

.

Viridian · Jan 21, 2015

Deepthought said:
Males and females have separate places (restrooms, locker rooms, etc.) in society exclusive to them for whatever reason (privacy, safety, etc.) But with same-sex attraction, people lose the privacy in those places; what is the solution?

Bolding mine.

Okay. The problem with this question is: it assumes that the reason we have same-sex changing room is to prevent the opposite gender from oggling us.

Which, when you think about it, is not really the case. Everyday nakedness isn't sexual. I'm not attracted to the average person I see on the street, and seeing some random person in their everyday undies is not hot.

The reason we (that is -- most Americans, not going to speak for everyone) feel more comfortable in same-sex changing rooms is because we have been conditioned to feel comfortable that way. IE, it's what we do because that's just how we've always done it. There's cultures where unisex nudity is normal, and those people sure as shit don't feel uncomfortable about it.

I feel completely comfortable changing in front of other women, regardless of their sexual orientation. I used to go to anime conventions with a whole pack of lesbians and bisexual girls, and you better believe we changed in front of each other and showered together. Meanwhile, I'd feel incredibly uncomfortable changing in front of a gay man, even though there's no chance at all he'd look at me sexually. Because it's not about being seen sexually. It's just a cultural, conditioned response.

mccardey · Jan 21, 2015

This thread - mind boggling. Truly - my mind has boggled.

I think, OP, we need to take nudity out of locker rooms and put it on the Internet where it belongs.

Does that help at all?

Ken · Jan 21, 2015

Some are even uncomfortable about undressing in front of their pets. Does that signify anything? Surely not !

So yeah. I also believe the topic rather unnecessary. Why cater to people's paranoia and/or "egotism?"

Underdawg47 · Jan 21, 2015

Ever since college, I have always showered with other men. When I was in the closet, you train yourself not stare, not to let your eyes linger on another guy's body parts for more than a second and you can't allow your eyes to focus. There was lots of hot masculine men to look at in the army. We would shower together, sleep in the same room, and see each other in every stage of undress, yet no one thought any different. Only in my imagination did I touch them in a sexual way.

DancingMaenid · Jan 21, 2015

ViridianChick said:
Bolding mine.

Okay. The problem with this question is: it assumes that the reason we have same-sex changing room is to prevent the opposite gender from oggling us.

Which, when you think about it, is not really the case. Everyday nakedness isn't sexual. I'm not attracted to the average person I see on the street, and seeing some random person in their everyday undies is not hot.

The reason we (that is -- most Americans, not going to speak for everyone) feel more comfortable in same-sex changing rooms is because we have been conditioned to feel comfortable that way. IE, it's what we do because that's just how we've always done it. There's cultures where unisex nudity is normal, and those people sure as shit don't feel uncomfortable about it.

I feel completely comfortable changing in front of other women, regardless of their sexual orientation. I used to go to anime conventions with a whole pack of lesbians and bisexual girls, and you better believe we changed in front of each other and showered together. Meanwhile, I'd feel incredibly uncomfortable changing in front of a gay man, even though there's no chance at all he'd look at me sexually. Because it's not about being seen sexually. It's just a cultural, conditioned response.

Yeah, that's how I see it. I suppose you could argue that some of that conditioning is based on the idea that people will find naked bodies of the opposite sex attractive, but I really don't think it's that simple. There are broader cultural beliefs about privacy and being naked or doing things like going to the bathroom in the presence of other people. I mean, like I said in my post, there are people who are uncomfortable with the idea of close family members, like parents and children, being naked together. I'd be surprised if many of those same people believe that parents who are naked with their kids are all child molesters. It seems like discomfort stems more from people feeling that bodies are private, and sex-segregating people seems to be more about the idea that people will feel more comfortable if other people in the room have the same body parts.

That idea does leave many of us trans* people out of the equation, unfortunately. And I think it's part of the justification for trying to prevent trans people from using their preferred bathrooms. But even then, the idea of being around people of the same gender, even if not the same sex, seems to make some people feel more comfortable.

I think this is something that extends beyond locker rooms and bathrooms, too. In my experience, there are a lot of people who, when in a group that they perceive as being the same gender as them, are more open in general.

Diana Hignutt · Jan 22, 2015

I say we ban locker rooms and bathrooms altogether. Those things are a menace. Because naked people!

Kitty27 · Jan 22, 2015

This is the solution: Get over yourself.
This sounds very close to "The gays are out to turn us! Quickly, stop them!"

I have never thought about this in my life. If a woman stares at me, well I am nice looking,you know. *flips hair*

I undress in front of other women at the gym I go to. I have no issues at all with doing that, regardless of their sexual orientation. I simply don't care. Hell,I stare at a woman if she's nicely built because I am a bit envious and really want to know her workout routine. I'd rather share a unisex locker room with gay guys than some straight ones to be honest. I don't care if a trans woman is in the locker room or restroom with me at all. We can all be naked in peace.

Maybe I was a nudist in a former life?

I had a fellow gym goer worry herself half to death about this same thing because we have a lady in our class who is transitioning(I think this is the correct term. If not,please correct me.) There is a unisex bathroom at the gym and she uses it. Even then, some were still fussing. All I could think of was that she's a lady,just like us. WHY are you so focused on her genitals? The hell is wrong with y'all?

Fruitbat · Jan 22, 2015

Everyone is nekkid under their clothes. And if they have a Brazilian, it's like they even took off the underwear under their underwear!

mccardey · Jan 22, 2015

Diana Hignutt said:
I say we ban locker rooms and bathrooms altogether. Those things are a menace. Because naked people!

Oh, let's just ban people.

Ravioli · Jan 22, 2015

The solution is people getting over themselves and not thinking that their attractiveness is of such magnitude that anyone attracted to their gender might pounce on them in a locker or bathroom. It's not because I see a man - the gender and sex I'm attracted to - peeing or changing shirts, that I immediately start eyeball-fucking him. And even if I did, what's the problem as long as he doesn't know? What you don't know can't make you uncomfortable. Relax. Yeesh all the gender segregation, like genitalia are something evil.

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