I'll admit that your basic idea is correct about me - I don't read very much poetry, in general. However, I do subscribe to Library of America, which recently sent me a collection of May Swenson poetry, so just by coincidence I actually have read a significant amount of poetry this month.
It’s National Poetry Month and You Haven’t Read a Single Poem Yet, Have You?
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I think how poetry is taught in schools has a lot to do with these fears and of "not getting it", as well. After so many times of being told you don't get it and need to re-read the poem, one's brain can and does go off into its own imaginings. And you learn to shut up. Or, I did. While I have tremendous respect for the scholarly view, I think it fails to take into account the reader-as-participant part of the reading experience. Words are defined differently by each individual--and this is why the poet (and the prose writer) sweat blood in trying to find the right words to set context--not in the dictionary definition of words, but in the emotional and experiential knowledge of those words. This is why I think reading and understanding poetry is a highly personal experience. And, having been told too often that you don't get it, one often loses the desire to continue. I didn't lose the desire because the rebel in me always says, "No, YOU don't get it, or at least not completely."
I've been seeking out more obscure poets because frankly time ain't on my side. <g> Two recent discoveries whose work I like very much are Rosalia de Castro and Jean-Joseph Rabearivelo. While I do read a few of the romance languages, I'm not fluent and much of the nuance is lost on me so I have to rely on translations and hope those translations are good ones.
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I agree with that. Frankly, it's true that a lot of people read a poem and totally miss what the poet is doing. But saying "you don't get it" is the wrong way to bring them to an appreciation of it, and can result in a lifelong dislike of poetry.
I had a professor back in my freshman year of college who had a particular gift for showing students how to take apart poems line by line and look beneath the surface meaning for metaphor, images, etc. -- to ask themselves why the poet choose this particular word instead of another, why she broke the line this way, etc. He was patient and humorous about it, and had a real knack for making it fun instead of tedious.
By the end of that semester, even the least poetic person in the class was looking at poetry in a new way. Many of them started by not having the foggiest idea of what a metaphor was, or that a word in a poem might be chosen for any other reason than to fit a rhyme scheme or meter. It was fun to watch them go from shrugging their shoulders and saying "meh, I don't get it" to "oh, wow, that's cool -- the whole thing is a metaphor!" "oh, I see, you can read that two ways, so he's saying two different things at once!" "oh, she's using that crucifix image to hint xyz!" etc.
I'll bet to this day, no one in that class can look at a line of poetry without considering every decision the poet made when writing each word of it.
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I have to give credit to my grade 7 and 8 LA teacher for getting me hooked on poetry. And I honestly don't know what she did but I can certainly say it was nothing you'd expect out of a Hollywood inspirational movie. But I know the very skill I somehow learned from her was how to actually rhyme. All subsequent teachers have tried the "inspirational" means of teaching it and it never really resonated. Part of enjoying poetry is realising your own voice, not the voices that want to echo in the halls of the schools and such.
I agree. And in learning to appreciate the individual voices of others. Not all poets/poems are trying to do the same thing, nor should they be.
CassandraW said:
No - but the poet might!
I'm one of those that refrain from commenting because, ya know, I'm just not sure of my ability to competently critique. And just saying, "Gee, I really like that" seems lame. I remember reading a long time ago that "Song lyrics are not poetry." I don't remember who said that, but it was someone *famous* in literature.
And his reasoning was that many pop songs don't put much thought into the lyrics, that it's more about the music hooks. And that most people just hear the lyrics and don't read them, and that people often hear them incorrectly and sing the wrong words and so that distorts the idea that the words are important.
I agree and and disagree with that long-ago decree. Some songs, nope, not going to convince me they're poetry. But others - oh yeah. I used to scrabble around trying to find the lyrics - buying song books for guitar etc just to get the words - but now it's easy, most of them are free on Internet.
Some of the songs that still resonate with me - definitely poetry.
I still want to know from Juniper what poem(s) she's memorizing.
Eh, nothing exciting. Learned it in school a long time ago and always liked the opening stanza. Seemed very exotic to a kid in Colorado.
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
by Coleridge, a dead old white guy.
That works well in poetry, where each word really is important, but wow I really hated that in discussing novels in school. Dissecting an 80,000 word novel to that degree doesn't make sense to me. Because sometimes, that curtain is blue just because the author looked up and saw her own blue curtains, not because the color has some hidden symbolism. Or because her favorite color is blue.
No - but the poet might!
Speaking as one of our poets --
I have been known to bite when someone says something I think is mean-spirited about someone else's poem -- i.e., a nasty remark or uncalled-for blanket diss, as opposed to an attempt at constructive criticism or a "this doesn't work for me" (which is fair enough, though IMO it's nice to say why, if you're going to bother saying it at all). But I wouldn't bite if it were my own, because (a) of course I have a bias, and especially because (b) I'd feel kind of small getting all pissy and defensive about my own poem.
If you question/criticize one of my word choices or metaphors, I might explain why I did it that way. But I wouldn't be pissed off or offended. I might even end up agreeing with you. There is a real difference between well-intentioned criticism and a diss. The former is always welcome, whether or not I agree with it.
From what I've seen, most of the other poets here seem to operate on a similar theory.
And I for one am always delighted to get a comment that simply says "I like this" or "thanks for sharing." I think most of us are. For what it's worth, sometimes that's all I say about a poem -- I liked it, and wanted the poet to know it. Or I might just say, "oh, I really liked that line/image/metaphor." Or "that made me think of my childhood/last boyfriend/whatever." Or "I like the way this sounds/makes me feel." I don't think there's anything in the least lame about that. I promise such a comment will always make the poet feel good.
Honestly, it's just nice to hear that someone read your piece and enjoyed or connected with some part of it.
FWIW, I also don't think there's anything lame about saying "I'm not sure I understand what you're doing with this line/stanza/image." I do that once in a while myself, when something stops me in my tracks. It's often quite interesting for everyone to hear the poet's thoughts on it. And sometimes it's useful to the poet to explain it. I know I've edited lines after someone made me rethink them.
The only kinds of critiques I find obnoxious are ones that simply diss a poem without any attempt to say what isn't working for then. Such comments shed no light; IMO, the only purpose they serve is to make the poet feel bad about his baby and/or make the commenter look petty. If you can give the poet a hint on what it is you don't like, on the other hand, perhaps he can consider what to improve.
Some song lyrics are not poetry, sure. There's lots of crap out there in the world of pop music. But some absolutely are.
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No - but the poet might!
....
I remember reading a long time ago that "Song lyrics are not poetry." I don't remember who said that, but it was someone *famous* in literature.
And his reasoning was that many pop songs don't put much thought into the lyrics, that it's more about the music hooks. And that most people just hear the lyrics and don't read them, and that people often hear them incorrectly and sing the wrong words and so that distorts the idea that the words are important.
Which is how folksong and story gets built, and is a crucial part of the Poe-Tree.
We pay far too much attention, IMO, to the pundifying of pundits. "Someone *famous* in literature" almost certainly has worthwhile thoughts about it, but your resonance with those song lyrics that makes you seek out their text is, again IMO, what poetry is really about. Generalizations stick with us so often when we feel unsure and it seems someone knows more than we do, but I hate it that this happens so very often with poetry.
It is a wonderful poem. It sings. It is a favorite of mine. I love that the story goes that Coleridge dreamed it but got woken up by the "person from ______" (wherever it was -- is it Porlock?) who caused him to lose the final stanzas.Eh, nothing exciting. Learned it in school a long time ago and always liked the opening stanza. Seemed very exotic to a kid in Colorado.
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
by Coleridge, a dead old white guy.
Anyway. Your enjoyment of the music of the language is real and valuable and is what makes poetry work. Whatever intellectual flights get taken with the artform of poetry are founded on that bedrock of musical language. If they aren't, well, "built on sand" is a metaphor we all recognize I think.
Now rather swiftly, no doubt, someone will come in here and proceed to counter my statements about musical language as the basis of poetry, I shouldn't be surprised. That's cool! Go for it.
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Now rather swiftly, no doubt, someone will come in here and proceed to counter my statements about musical language as the basis of poetry, I shouldn't be surprised. That's cool! Go for it.
Nah -- we have a thread for debating that issue already (at least one) in the poetry forum.
*cough* Yep. And if people wish to counter what I said here, they're welcome to. In fact, there are very likely people who may not be comfortable in the Poetry forum, or debating about poetry there.
Safe space here. Whether one wishes to debate, or not.
Safe space here.
Whether one wishes to debate, or not.
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I didn't mean to cut off a discussion on it here -- I just meant to promise everyone that they're safe from me going off on one of my trademark rants on the subject. I got it all out in that thread (for now, anyway).
But I'll throw out this (since the OP assumes -- correctly, I'm sure -- that most people aren't reading much poetry): I think poetry with musical language and a fairly clear surface meaning is probably the type most "I don't know anything about poetry" people will appreciate the most. (Certainly, it was the first type I came to appreciate.) The metaphors and images could fly right over your head, yet you could still enjoy it for the music and story.
ETA:
I'll venture a little further out on my branch. I think metaphor is probably the poetic device most non-poetry readers find most intimidating (and, for some, off-putting).
But I'll throw out this (since the OP assumes -- correctly, I'm sure -- that most people aren't reading much poetry): I think poetry with musical language and a fairly clear surface meaning is probably the type most "I don't know anything about poetry" people will appreciate the most. (Certainly, it was the first type I came to appreciate.) The metaphors and images could fly right over your head, yet you could still enjoy it for the music and story.
ETA:
I'll venture a little further out on my branch. I think metaphor is probably the poetic device most non-poetry readers find most intimidating (and, for some, off-putting).
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No problem. Some of the discussion threads in Poetry are surprisingly hot, aren't they?
Actually I also wanted to point out another thread, which some reading here might not be aware of, in the Mainstream/Contemporary/Literary room, Sloppy Joe's Bar.
It's a low key social thread and pretty much every day I post the link to that day's Writer's Almanac, which itself posts a daily poem.
So we start off the day with a poem. Lots of the people in that thread are self-confessed *stumbles on what to call it* poetry non-appreciaters, I guess, people who ordinarily don't seek out poetry and even have thought they didn't "get" poetry.
We don't analyze the poems; I usually make a remark about liking or not liking the day's poem and maybe something else, and others say similar things -- but it's a friendly low key, no-expectations way to check out some poems on a regular basis, if anyone cares to visit over there.
Actually I also wanted to point out another thread, which some reading here might not be aware of, in the Mainstream/Contemporary/Literary room, Sloppy Joe's Bar.
It's a low key social thread and pretty much every day I post the link to that day's Writer's Almanac, which itself posts a daily poem.
So we start off the day with a poem. Lots of the people in that thread are self-confessed *stumbles on what to call it* poetry non-appreciaters, I guess, people who ordinarily don't seek out poetry and even have thought they didn't "get" poetry.
We don't analyze the poems; I usually make a remark about liking or not liking the day's poem and maybe something else, and others say similar things -- but it's a friendly low key, no-expectations way to check out some poems on a regular basis, if anyone cares to visit over there.
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I just realised -- I reread an MS preparing to send it out last week. It starts with a poetry quote (“And Something's odd - within -
That person that I was -
And this One - do not feel the same -
Could it be Madness - this?”) and my MC refs poetry throughout
That person that I was -
And this One - do not feel the same -
Could it be Madness - this?”) and my MC refs poetry throughout
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Not at all.
And when I did the poll, I was thinking that no, I hadn't read any poems this month, but then I realized that (reading of song lyrics aside) I had. I've run by some online (a couple classics I looked up for some reasons, plus some new stuff on a person's blog), plus there have been a couple of poems in novels I've read, and so on.
I think for those of us who don't actively seek out books or magazines filled with poems, poetry tends to be invisible, but in fact it's still a part of our lives.
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I voted In the poll.
*******
But as an aside, I'll admit that my brain kept trying to force the thread title to read, "National Monty Python Month [followed by more other words]"
And that's what drew me in.
Carry on.
*********
I'll show myself out....
*******
But as an aside, I'll admit that my brain kept trying to force the thread title to read, "National Monty Python Month [followed by more other words]"
And that's what drew me in.
Carry on.
*********
I'll show myself out....
Apart from the initial Dickinson I quoted...ack, names of individual poems I'd have to go look. Mostly dead white dudes : Coleridge, Shelley, Byron. He calls his house Rochester because it looks like a gent riddled with syphilis...
I fear that any critique I offer of poetry would be considered offensive or at least a provocation to put the writer on the defensive. Excluding rhyming poetry such as nursery rhymes and limericks, I can not understand what constitutes a poem and I don't understand the convoluted definitions given on the various websites I've found while searching for the meaning of poetry.
Here's the best thing that I can come up with when trying to define poetry: Hitting the return or enter key before the sentence makes it to the right margin.
I'm only being slightly sarcastic.
To prove my point, here is a video of a poet who hosts poetry slams at my favorite bookstore once a month. He is reading the poem and you can not see the writing on the page. Is there any difference between this poem and a short story? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIR1DeAlOfk
One other thing about poetry - Why is it that I can remember many of the nursery rhymes I read as a child without ever having read them again? Our brains must be so impressionable when we're young that a good nursery rhyme never leaves us. In the third grade (1974 for me) we were told to memorize one particularly long poem that I never completely memorized. However, to this day, I still remember the beginning:
At four o'clock
The farmer's up
To feed the cat
And pet the pup
On it went at that fast clip, but I remember nothing beyond that point. I do, however, remember feeling sorry for the cat who didn't receive the same affection from the farmer that the pup did.
Here's the best thing that I can come up with when trying to define poetry: Hitting the return or enter key before the sentence makes it to the right margin.
I'm only being slightly sarcastic.
To prove my point, here is a video of a poet who hosts poetry slams at my favorite bookstore once a month. He is reading the poem and you can not see the writing on the page. Is there any difference between this poem and a short story? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIR1DeAlOfk
One other thing about poetry - Why is it that I can remember many of the nursery rhymes I read as a child without ever having read them again? Our brains must be so impressionable when we're young that a good nursery rhyme never leaves us. In the third grade (1974 for me) we were told to memorize one particularly long poem that I never completely memorized. However, to this day, I still remember the beginning:
At four o'clock
The farmer's up
To feed the cat
And pet the pup
On it went at that fast clip, but I remember nothing beyond that point. I do, however, remember feeling sorry for the cat who didn't receive the same affection from the farmer that the pup did.
I've written two poems this month (both short ones), and read a number, almost all at the poetry critique forum here. And, stepping up my game, I finally published my long-finished poetry book this month. I'm just waiting for it to sync up with my Amazon author pages before announcing it here. If you include proof-reading the 39 poems in this book, I've read close to 50 poems this month. And, on my noon walks, I sing songs for which I've written pastiche lyrics for. Perhaps that counts as well.
I learned to shut up too. In my case the way poetry was taught caused me to hate it, and avoid it for over 30 years. A string of English teachers tried to get me to see "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening" as a suicide poem. Because I couldn't see it (still can't, BTW), I was made to feel stupid. I even wrote a poem about that experience, which perhaps I'll post in the Poetry Critique Forum some day.
NDG
I learned to shut up too. In my case the way poetry was taught caused me to hate it, and avoid it for over 30 years. A string of English teachers tried to get me to see "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening" as a suicide poem. Because I couldn't see it (still can't, BTW), I was made to feel stupid. I even wrote a poem about that experience, which perhaps I'll post in the Poetry Critique Forum some day.
NDG
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Read multiple (Although I feel like "Behold the works of William Morris" may not count, even if it has the delicious description of his pseudomedieval epics as "A sort of Chaucer minus Horace."), wrote one piece of silly doggerel.
Thinking about it, I read more poetry than I think.
Thinking about it, I read more poetry than I think.
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