*Trigger Warning* Rape: A Crude Plot Device?

The Otter said:

If people must write about rape, I'd like to see more stories where it was part of someone's past but something that didn't define them.

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I read a book, waaaay back when I was a teenager, that had an interesting take on it. There were two female protagonists who were lovers. One had been raped by a friend and was horribly traumatized by it. The other had grown up as a warrior in a tribal setting where the tribes fought with each other but avoided killing each other. Everyone got ransomed home eventually, but rape was considered fair game as a way to humiliate the losers. So the warrior character had both raped others and been raped herself.

There was an awkward, sort of sweet, sort of horrible scene where the warrior very gently tries to get her lover to just see her own attack as something bad she that went through, but not that big a deal. It's clear the warrior really does see it that way -- as no worse than any other form of violence, and completely survivable. Her lover doesn't really buy into that, but it does help her try to set the horror aside.

I've never agreed with the implied normalization of "psychological origins" vis-a-vis kinks and fetishes.

I'd bet that most of them evolve through a simple mixing process, which I'll demonstrate below, with vague descriptions in order not to offend the squeamish .

You enjoy thing A a lot. Example: a person with a sexy voice at your job, who gets you all hot and bothered with every word.

Thing B, which you wouldn't find attractive in isolation, is packaged along with thing A as a tag-along detail. Example: this person dresses like an actual clown, make-up and ball nose and all.

You diddle yourself to mental images of this person at night, scenarios and fantasies, merely tolerating the clown get-up at first. But via association of arousal, it eventually becomes a thing. Long after your attraction to the original person has subsided, you are looking up clown porn at 2am.

I have noticed this happening myself (not with clown porn) and have read about it elsewhere.

I'd expect that a lot of rape fantasies, from either end, have precursors in milder variants (use your imagination).

I guess that believing exclusively in the "psychological origins" theory might appeal to faith in humanity. The thinking on some level might go "rape is a horrible thing, and any decent person has to endure some sort of trauma to be aroused by it". But I don't consider finding "terrible things" arousing to be much of a character defect.

kuwisdelu said:

I think asking for "reasons" behind kinks usually just results in a bunch of pop psychology bullshit answers, which is why I hate these kinds of discussions. I don't think anyone needs to rationalize what turns them on as long as they're not hurting anyone.

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kuwisdelu said:

I can easily enjoy things that honestly strike me as wrong. That's one of the reasons fiction exists.

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Yes and yes.

jjdebenedictis said:

I read a book, waaaay back when I was a teenager, that had an interesting take on it. There were two female protagonists who were lovers. One had been raped by a friend and was horribly traumatized by it. The other had grown up as a warrior in a tribal setting where the tribes fought with each other but avoided killing each other. Everyone got ransomed home eventually, but rape was considered fair game as a way to humiliate the losers. So the warrior character had both raped others and been raped herself.

There was an awkward, sort of sweet, sort of horrible scene where the warrior very gently tries to get her lover to just see her own attack as something bad she that went through, but not that big a deal. It's clear the warrior really does see it that way -- as no worse than any other form of violence, and completely survivable. Her lover doesn't really buy into that, but it does help her try to set the horror aside.

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That does sound interesting...do you remember the title?

I mean, it does sound like those are two very different scenarios--a deeply personal betrayal of trust verses a kind of hazing ritual. But I do think it would be healthier if we, as a society, could view rape as simply something bad that happens to a person as opposed to something that strips them of their personhood. Naturally it will leave some psychological scars, but so does any form of assault.

The idea that it's "the worst possible thing" that could happen to a person (and particularly a woman) seems, to me, to be a kind of holdover from the idea that women are defined wholly by their sexuality and sexual purity. And that shows in the kind of language people often use when describing the effects of rape trauma--talking about people being tainted or dirtied by the experience, and stuff like that.

Someone who has seen their comrades killed in battle or been seriously injured in a mugging, or even been psychologically abused, will probably have PTSD too. But we don't describe them as being "dirtied."

Just to clarify: I'm not trying to tell anyone how they should or shouldn't respond emotionally to trauma. That's a very personal, individual thing, and there is no right or wrong. I'm speaking about how society in general reacts to/talks about these things.

The Otter said:

That does sound interesting...do you remember the title?

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Unfortunately no, and I've been trying to remember for a few years. :-/ It was a series, and quite good, and written by two people. I remember a lot of the interesting details from it, but title? Author names? Dur?

The Otter said:

The idea that it's "the worst possible thing" that could happen to a person (and particularly a woman) seems, to me, to be a kind of holdover from the idea that women are defined wholly by their sexuality and sexual purity. And that shows in the kind of language people often use when describing the effects of rape trauma--talking about people being tainted or dirtied by the experience, and stuff like that.

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There are various reasons why I consider rape to be worse than murder.
One, it is prevalent. A woman who is raped can't go home and say to herself "That won't happen again". Because, let's face it, there's a high risk there is at least some kind of sexual assault in her future. Rape is used as a tool to keep women as a group oppressed.

Two, connected to one: Male-on-Female rape involves the risk of unwanted pregnancy. The aftermath, thus, is much worse than that of any other kind of torture.

Three: Rape is a crime that uses something that should be enjoyable (sex) and makes it horrible. Therefore, it is harder to compartementalize than non-sexualized torture. People FEEL tainted, and I think not all of that is due to societal perceptions of purity. It's also the fact that they might have "enjoyed" it in a physical sense.


In short, while I won't try and define rape victims' experiences for them, I do believe that there is (or should be) a special circle of hell reserved for rapists.


Concerning your wish for rape as backstory rather than plot element, I thought the Hurog-Series by Patricia Briggs was quite good in its portrayal of rape. The setting is one where everyone is aware that rape is something that can and does happen to men, too, and there are zero rape scenes, it is all offscreen or in the backstories. There is one attempted rape, where the rapists get killed before they can do it. It is only one, and it takes place during a war - it does not materialize out of the blue for the protagonist to be able to show off what great protector of distressed damsels he is. (That is something I dislike. Patrick Rothfuss should stay away from portraying rape, just saying.)

Menyanthana said:

One, it is prevalent. A woman who is raped can't go home and say to herself "That won't happen again". Because, let's face it, there's a high risk there is at least some kind of sexual assault in her future. Rape is used as a tool to keep women as a group oppressed.

Two, connected to one: Male-on-Female rape involves the risk of unwanted pregnancy. The aftermath, thus, is much worse than that of any other kind of torture.

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I don't think there's any justification for claiming that anything is inherently "worse than any other kind of torture."

The thought of an unwanted pregnancy (and in my case any pregnancy would be unwanted) is viscerally horrifying to me and kind of makes me think of the movie Alien. On the other hand, would it be worse than, say, having my hands chopped off? Or being subjected to agonizing third degree burns all over my body? Or witnessing my friends and loved ones being shot? Or being tasered and beaten by the police, and knowing that it might happen again the next time I walked down the street?

Since I thankfully haven't experienced any of those things, I really can't say. And I don't believe that anyone can say, with authority, that one is worse than the other unless they've experienced more than one and can compare them side by side.

The fact that rape has been used as a tool of political oppression (against both men and women, as others have pointed out) is definitely grounds for treating it with more sensitivity and care, in much the same way that people probably shouldn't make jokes about lynching or slavery. But there are many different forms of oppression in the world. Saying that one is "the worst" is kind of like saying that other people's oppression isn't really all that bad.

Menyanthana said:

Three: Rape is a crime that uses something that should be enjoyable (sex) and makes it horrible. Therefore, it is harder to compartementalize than non-sexualized torture. People FEEL tainted, and I think not all of that is due to societal perceptions of purity. It's also the fact that they might have "enjoyed" it in a physical sense.

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True. But someone who was physically or emotionally abused as a child (or an adult) will probably have a lot of trouble trusting others and might, for awhile at least, have difficulty enjoying human relationships in general. The "negative associations" thing occurs with many forms of pain, and any kind of PTSD makes it difficult for the person to live their life as fully as they would have otherwise.

Though regarding your last point, I do think it would be helpful to educate people about the fact that you can physically enjoy an experience without "wanting" it. I've heard tickling used as a metaphor. If you don't want it, the experience of being tickled can be very unpleasant, but you'll still laugh out of sheer reflex. Orgasms can happen the same way. Though, obviously, that will be much more traumatic.

Menyanthana said:

In short, while I won't try and define rape victims' experiences for them, I do believe that there is (or should be) a special circle of hell reserved for rapists.

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Again, I'm not saying it's not a horrible, life-destroying thing. I know people who have survived sexual abuse. I've seen firsthand the kind of havoc it can cause to a person's psyche (though of course that isn't the same as experiencing it). I just don't think the perception of rape and sexual assault as The Worst Possible Thing (worse than murder, for crying out loud) is helpful to anyone, least of all the survivors.

I mean, does it have to be a contest? Can't we just say that all trauma and oppression is bad?

Edited to say: Thanks for the recommendation. I will take a look at that.

Menyanthana said:

There are various reasons why I consider rape to be worse than murder.

In short, while I won't try and define rape victims' experiences for them, I do believe that there is (or should be) a special circle of hell reserved for rapists.

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I disagree. Other than what rapists deserve, but I would lump all potential life destroyers in with them, from drunk drivers hitting people, to child murderers. I say potential, because while how she (or he) deals with having been raped, is her/his sole responsibility, but there would be no need to deal had the rapist not acted. Having been raped myself and decided not to dwell on it beyond how I'd dwell on other transgressions, I agree with that tribe chick who says it's no big deal. It does not have to be. You can't choose to not be assaulted, but you can choose how to cope with it.

Because:

One, it is prevalent. A woman who is raped can't go home and say to herself "That won't happen again". Because, let's face it, there's a high risk there is at least some kind of sexual assault in her future. Rape is used as a tool to keep women as a group oppressed.

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Anything that doesn't kill you, can happen to you twice. Not just rape. Anything, ever. You can get your head lumped in, your child kidnapped, or your house bombed a hundred times. If you let an incident ruin your life because, while it is behind you, you know there is the chance of more to come, well, honestly, I dunno what to say to that. I choose not to live in fear of something horrible to repeat itself. I do learn to take precautions wherever possible and convenient.

Two, connected to one: Male-on-Female rape involves the risk of unwanted pregnancy. The aftermath, thus, is much worse than that of any other kind of torture.

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Just as with consensual sex, there are ways to end pregnancies or stop them from developing. A rape baby is no more stubborn than a wanted one. And the second sentence is a bit of an exaggeration if you're speaking for people other than yourself, as you cannot know every "other kind of torture", and maybe others will feel differently. I'd happily carry any circumstance's child and raise it lovingly, and I can think of a million worse things to be put through than a "rape baby". Hell, I even hoped to at least get a child out of it when it happened to me and was bummed when I didn't.
There are people for whom the thought is unbearable, but objectively speaking it's just another pregnancy, meaning that there is a huge array of varieties for people to feel about and deal with it. I have been a trouble magnet all my life, and I would choose rape and rape pregnancies over many of those troubles. Ever been in a faraway land where nobody speaks your language as you're rotting away in a cell not knowing why, how long for, or if anyone out there is gonna help you, with no steady supply of hydration, hygiene, or food? Yeah well, I have. Thought of killing myself but that place wasn't worthy of my blood.

Three: Rape is a crime that uses something that should be enjoyable (sex) and makes it horrible. Therefore, it is harder to compartementalize than non-sexualized torture. People FEEL tainted, and I think not all of that is due to societal perceptions of purity. It's also the fact that they might have "enjoyed" it in a physical sense.

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Murder is a crime that ends something magnificent and full of way more potential and possibilities than sex: life. With no chance to fix it. Rape can heal if you let it, murder is final.

People feeling tainted is another generalization. I sure don't. The only sex that made me feel dirty, was a semi-drunk pity screw I gave a dude who totally repelled me but was being so pathetic, after having driven so far just for that... Now that was awful.

Having enjoyed it physically is another thing you can choose how to deal with. I say, why make things extra-worse when you can see that enjoyment as the one silver lining? No part of a rape is your fault during the act, so whatever your body does, is the rapist's fault, too. I like that about all kinds of assault - WHY blame yourself for any of it?

As for non-sexual torture, how is the rest of the body and its uses less "supposed to be enjoyable"? Your ribs are supposed to be hugged, not kicked in. Your leg is supposed to kick balls, not get broken. Your hand is supposed to enable your passion and hobbies, but good luck with it crippled. And I swear I'd kill myself would a physical assault leave me blind, because I live and breathe for visual beauty.
Anything that can be applied to rape, can be applied otherwise, while physical injuries in rape are actually often of the less serious kind than say, getting your head lumped in.
After any rape, my body was undamaged, and sex was not made horrible other than the very rape itself. How I feel about sex afterwards, and about life and about myself, that is 100% up to me. I can choose to wallow, or I can choose what I have so far chosen, which is to say "Meh" and continue to get laid and enjoy it.

All I'm saying is, like any transgression, how to cope with rape is largely up to the victim. You can decide that social stigma is law and defines you and your worth, or you can dismiss that as the BS it is and decide that you had no hand in it and will accept no negativity for it.

The Otter said:

I don't think there's any justification for claiming that anything is inherently "worse than any other kind of torture."

The thought of an unwanted pregnancy (and in my case any pregnancy would be unwanted) is viscerally horrifying to me and kind of makes me think of the movie Alien. On the other hand, would it be worse than, say, having my hands chopped off? Or being subjected to agonizing third degree burns all over my body? Or witnessing my friends and loved ones being shot? Or being tasered and beaten by the police, and knowing that it might happen again the next time I walked down the street?

Since I thankfully haven't experienced any of those things, I really can't say. And I don't believe that anyone can say, with authority, that one is worse than the other unless they've experienced more than one and can compare them side by side.

The fact that rape has been used as a tool of political oppression (against both men and women, as others have pointed out) is definitely grounds for treating it with more sensitivity and care, in much the same way that people probably shouldn't make jokes about lynching or slavery. But there are many different forms of oppression in the world. Saying that one is "the worst" is kind of like saying that other people's oppression isn't really all that bad.

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The problem with comparing rape with other horrible things that can happen to people is that the effects of rape don't end with the attack itself. Rape victims have an encredibly hard time getting justice for what a rapist did to them. If a case even gets to court it is often the rape victim instead of the rapist who is on trial. Rape victims are often blamed and shamed for their experiences for years and sometimes even decades after the fact. Here I am not even talking about how they are treated if they were attacked more than once.

Burn victims, victims of robberies or police violence, to name but a few, can at least count on public sympathy and do not have to hide their ordeal, but can share the experience with friends and family members or even co-workers. Support from one's own community is an important part of the healing process that rape victims do not have access to. This is what makes rape even worse than it already is.

Rape fantasies are, in my eyes, a product of the culture which we grow up in, which get increasingly pornified. Gail Dines says in the TED Talk linked below that girls who go into porn go into it "porn ready", according to pornographers. This was apparently not the case just a decade ago. That to me is a scary concept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YpHNImNsx8

Actually, how society treats victims of this or that accident, this or that crime, this or that disease, depends heavily on which culture and which accident/crime/disease you consider.

Yes, there is generally a strong stigma against rape victims in the west. But there are also stigma against people who recovered from cancer (healthcare companies often refuse to cover you, banks refuse to lend you money). There's a stigma against people who suffer from mental diseases, even when they're recovering or under control.

In Europe, victims of anti-white hate crimes are very rare, but as the result they tend to face strong suspiction of racism ("surely if they attacked you, you must have done something to offend them").

People who have been accused then cleared of pedophilia charges (as happened a decade ago in France, there was a high profil case where the main suspect implicated 17 other people of which 12 were actually innocent, but spent several years in jail as the result, one of them commiting suicide while in custody) have to live with the enduring stigma of suspicion even after their name has been officially cleared, because "there's no smoke without fire".

If you move out of the west, in Japan, there is a very strong stigma against ex-hostages, sometimes even worse than against rape victims.


Is rape really bad and with some unique difficulties associated with the aftermath? Certainly, but that doesn't mean it's "unique" or "the worst crime ever".

I don't know about the United States, but when it comes to cancer, people here don't mind sharing in detail how they got diagnosed, treated and recovered, if they did or if they still suffer from it. I will hear this from people I don't know all that well. Coverage of medical costs is based on your contract your ensurance company has with your local hospital. (It's nuts I know.)

Depression I will hear about from people I know a little better. Usually I will have had to know them from at least a couple of months, but this is something even co-workers share with me and I with them.

Rape on the other I will only ever discover from my closest friends and only years into the friendship. I would say that rape definitely carries more of a stigma than depression or cancer or even a hate crime.

I think the reason rape is such a problematic device isn't just because of its ubiquity in real life and the stigmatization of victims, though these are certainly factors.

It's that it's been used by so many writers (especially in fantasy) in such lazy, cliched ways as the "go to" defining trauma for so many female characters. Often it's presented as something that is more of a crime against the men most closely associated with the woman (many societies still see it this way). Or maybe it's even a sort of comeuppance or life lesson for adventurous, naive, or "careless" female characters who presume to go out and risk themselves in a man's world. "Silly girl! Don't you realize all these rules and restrictions that hamper your freedom and agency are really there for your protection? So now you've been raped. Hope you've learned your lesson!"

And then there's that whole thing with a rape being all about the male perpetrator or being shown in a way that's almost titillating sometimes.

After a while, even careful and realistic portrayals can feel (to female readers, at least) like being poked over and over in the same patch of deeply bruised flesh. Until you feel like screaming, "YES I KNOW I COULD BE RAPED IF I ACTUALLY LIVED IN A PRE-INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY AND TRIED TO DO ANYTHING INTERESTING OR IMPORTANT! I'm stupid and unrealistic for fantasizing about being a hero, and I should just go read something contemporary where everyone goes shoe shopping. I get it!"

Yes, murder, torture and so on can also be shown in insensitive or klunky way too. But it is just so nice to read stories where the female characters have some other past trauma or dark secret for once.

Roxxsmom said:

I think the reason rape is such a problematic device isn't just because of its ubiquity in real life and the stigmatization of victims, though these are certainly factors.

It's that it's been used by so many writers (especially in fantasy) in such lazy, cliched ways as the "go to" defining trauma for so many female characters. Often it's presented as something that is more of a crime against the men most closely associated with the woman (many societies still see it this way). Or maybe it's even a sort of comeuppance or life lesson for adventurous, naive, or "careless" female characters who presume to go out and risk themselves in a man's world. "Silly girl! Don't you realize all these rules and restrictions that hamper your freedom and agency are really there for your protection? So now you've been raped. Hope you've learned your lesson!"

And then there's that whole thing with a rape being all about the male perpetrator or being shown in a way that's almost titillating sometimes.

After a while, even careful and realistic portrayals can feel (to female readers, at least) like being poked over and over in the same patch of deeply bruised flesh. Until you feel like screaming, "YES I KNOW I COULD BE RAPED IF I ACTUALLY LIVED IN A PRE-INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY AND TRIED TO DO ANYTHING INTERESTING OR IMPORTANT! I'm stupid and unrealistic for fantasizing about being a hero, and I should just go read something contemporary where everyone goes shoe shopping. I get it!"

Yes, murder, torture and so on can also be shown in insensitive or klunky way too. But it is just so nice to read stories where the female characters have some other past trauma or dark secret for once.

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I just want to quote you, because I agree with everything you posted here.
It often does feel as though the writer is putting in a judgementmental warning to women who just want to live their own lives.

Silly girls, don't you know you can't be heroes or have adventures? Not only is rape a fate worse than death, but it's the only thing a woman can expect if she leaves the smothering protective embrace of her family and menfolk.

Oh, also, women can't be out in the wilderness or be present on military campaigns, because they get their periods (seriously, someone once gave this as a reason why you don't see many stories with female adventurers in pre-industrial societies). In the days before sanitary products and ibuprofin, evidently, women were too incapacitated to step out of their homes for a few days out of every month.

The Otter said:

I don't think there's any justification for claiming that anything is inherently "worse than any other kind of torture."

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There is a form of torture where the victim is tied with their fingers against their eyes. Their head is then wrapped in wet rawhide and as it dries, it forces the persons own fingers into their eyeballs IF they wrap enough rawhide tight enough, it goes on to crack your skull and dislocate your jaw. I highly doubt that rape is worse than having your own fingers forced into your eyes over the course of an entire day. Maybe I'm wrong, but you know... If I had to choose between getting raped and that, I'd pick the rape every time. Comments like "This is the worst ______" tend to not consider that anything could and can be worse.

The fact that rape has been used as a tool of political oppression (against both men and women, as others have pointed out) is definitely grounds for treating it with more sensitivity and care, in much the same way that people probably shouldn't make jokes about lynching or slavery. But there are many different forms of oppression in the world. Saying that one is "the worst" is kind of like saying that other people's oppression isn't really all that bad.



True. But someone who was physically or emotionally abused as a child (or an adult) will probably have a lot of trouble trusting others and might, for awhile at least, have difficulty enjoying human relationships in general. The "negative associations" thing occurs with many forms of pain, and any kind of PTSD makes it difficult for the person to live their life as fully as they would have otherwise.


(snips)


Again, I'm not saying it's not a horrible, life-destroying thing. I know people who have survived sexual abuse. I've seen firsthand the kind of havoc it can cause to a person's psyche (though of course that isn't the same as experiencing it). I just don't think the perception of rape and sexual assault as The Worst Possible Thing (worse than murder, for crying out loud) is helpful to anyone, least of all the survivors.

I mean, does it have to be a contest? Can't we just say that all trauma and oppression is bad?

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I agree with this. I wonder that, if we were to treat rape like other forms of violence done against a person, would people recover from it quicker? I myself have not been raped, but I have been mentally and physically abused by family members. I had a classmate try to kill me. I still have a panic attack whenever someone suggests I ride a bike because of a vehicle vs cyclist accident I was in four years ago (I was the cyclist) . I know what PTSD is like, the way that event haunts your dreams and leaves you looking over your shoulder and slamming your breaks every time there's a cyclist near your car. The way it'll drive you from family...

After the attack where someone tried to kill me, it took me a year before hearing someone walk behind me didn't set off my fight or flight. My attacker broke a skateboard over my head, and seeing someone carrying one still makes me a little wary. On top of it, I filed a police report and he got arrested. Most of the people in the school I went to thought I was wrong for that. I was accused of being a snitch, I was bullied constantly and had things thrown at me, no one would talk to me except the other 'outcasts' of the school. My property was constantly vandalized, I was called a liar, told I should have taken that murder attempt 'like a man' and that I should have kept my mouth shut. I was threatened with more attacks weekly, and even had a couple attempt to carry those threats out. My account of the attack got cross examined in court and it sucked all around.

My own father still doesn't believe that anything happened between me and his wife. It's been made very clear to me that the abuses she heaped on me are not a subject I am to bring up with him. When I made accusations to authorities I was disbelieved. My appeal to end visitations was denied, and I was forced to go back to that situation again and again. I don't know how I'd tell him, but it's still hard for me to visit even though I've come to an agreement with her, just because of the memories.

And sometimes I wonder; If I had had everyone telling me that something had been taken from me that I would never replace. If I had people telling me (more often than they were) that I had brought the attack on myself, or that my being abused was somehow consensual,that I deserved to get hit by a speeding RV home because I wasn't dressed right, or had done to me all that we do to rape victims; if I would be as far along as I am in my recovery from those.

Just some musing I suppose.

Just because other forms of abuse are terrible doesn't mean rape isn't. I think we've thoroughly debunked the "don't have stories with rape in them because it's the worst thing that can happen" argument.

I think the tool of political oppression and it being a thing that society holds over women's heads in particular, are still valid. So is the overuse as a go to trope and the often misunderstood representation of it as sex and not a hate crime. Bullying and torture are rarely presented as normal human behavior that comes from being denied legitimate outlets for aggression for so long. Yes many people believe that normal men who have been denied sex for a while will go on raping sprees.

In my story about rape the female is the rapist and the male the victim. I wrote it for a NaNoWriMo and when I mentioned it on the boards I got some really heartbreaking, sad messages and emails with men who were just so pleased anyone was writing about it. I'm hoping to get it cleaned up and published even if I have to self publish it. The rest of the story is about him putting his life back together.

It doesn't matter what the pain or problem it's the one each individual is dealing with at the time is probably the worst. Depending on your beliefs murder is the one crime the victim doesn't have to deal with the consequences of.

I am curious whether or not people who were bullied or assaulted have the same kinds of emotional responses to portrayals of bullying or assault in novels as often as victims of rape and torture do or portrayals of rape and torture (being triggered into a PTSD response)?

If not, why not? And if so, why are rape and torture regarded as especially problematic crimes to portray? Are rape and torture victims just big babies who have won the oppression Olympics? I don't think that's the case, so there must be something about these crimes that makes them different from being hit over the head or or in a car accident (things that can trigger PTSD as well). Is rape special because it's so tangled up with our society's screwed-up thinking about sex and gender roles? I don't know, but I still think it's a more off-putting thing to put in a novel than assault or even murder.

Usher said:

In my story about rape the female is the rapist and the male the victim. I wrote it for a NaNoWriMo and when I mentioned it on the boards I got some really heartbreaking, sad messages and emails with men who were just so pleased anyone was writing about it. I'm hoping to get it cleaned up and published even if I have to self publish it. The rest of the story is about him putting his life back together.

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Good luck with getting your story published! Your anecdote made me think of an article on Cracked. Yeah, I know Cracked isn't the bestest most scholarly source around, but they do have surprisingly smart articles for a humor website. One of those articles was a guy who wrote about his experience about being raped by a woman. He said the worst part of the ordeal was all the questions he had to deal with afterwards, people looking at him like he just claimed to be bitten by a leprechaun when he confesses to being raped by a woman. http://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...alities-being-man-who-was-raped-by-woman.html

I admit that I've used rape in some of my fiction in two separate works. Both times the perpetrator was male and the victim was female, but I like to think I avoided some of the pitfalls associated with Rape in Fiction. Like neither fell in love with the Rapist and both were profoundly scarred in different ways as a result. I admit that both times I used it, I tried to use broad strokes as a means of talking about what they went through, mostly because I believe when writing rape or torture, it should feel brutal. The reader should understand why the character is haunted by this event. Often I feel the broad strokes approach works best in that it conveys that it was bad enough that the victim still can't even talk about it. Plus, it somewhat avoids the obvious danger that someone might be beating off to a scene meant to be one of horror.

Though like I've said previously, I kind of wish there was some more, well, variety with these scenes. All the ones I've read, seem hung up on a the creep lurks in the dark and forces himself upon an innocent victim who is pretty much always female. The stranger in the dark rapes make up a minority of real-world cases yet they seem to appear the most often in fiction. As many stats will point out, most rapes are what they call date-rapes, committed by someone the victim knows and trusts. So for once, I want to see more cases where the victim is, well, he or she was on a date with someone they had no reason to mistrust or dislike and at some point, they started doing some heavy petting, but just as things are starting to go further, the victim is like "Wait, I don't want to do this." I suggest this, because those kind of rapes are probably more common than the creep in the dark scenario I brought up earlier.

Roxxsmom said:

I am curious whether or not people who were bullied or assaulted have the same kinds of emotional responses to portrayals of bullying or assault in novels as often as victims of rape and torture do or portrayals of rape and torture (being triggered into a PTSD response)?

If not, why not? And if so, why are rape and torture regarded as especially problematic crimes to portray? Are rape and torture victims just big babies who have won the oppression Olympics? I don't think that's the case, so there must be something about these crimes that makes them different from being hit over the head or or in a car accident (things that can trigger PTSD as well). Is rape special because it's so tangled up with our society's screwed-up thinking about sex and gender roles? I don't know, but I still think it's a more off-putting thing to put in a novel than assault or even murder.

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The phrase oppression Olympics strikes me as wrong. But going on-

I'm not going to deny that rape is a serious crime. I'd put it on par with kidnapping and torture. All three of those crimes take control over the individuals body away from them, and that is a horrific position for a human being to be in. The PTSD is going to be immense after any of those situations.
When I read books where severe bullying is part the plot, I can rarely get through them. The way the bullying is carried out, the way it affects it's victim and the way people respond to it, is just so god damned flat. I don't often swear, but really, its just fucking shit.

An example of how shitastic it can be in real life; When I was in the first grade, (I was about 3 foot and fifty pounds then, I was freakishly tiny for my age.) I was constantly bullied by some boys who were in the seventh grade and went to my combined school. One day, these boys grabbed me and tied me to a stop sign. Once I couldn't move anymore, they began to rip my hair out with duct tape. They were at it for probably twenty or thirty minutes with traffic passing by before finally my aunt drove past and saw it and stopped the attack. The police told us that it "Was just boys being boys" And the god damn fuck off of a principal at my school asked me if I had "tried being friends with my bullies." It still enrages me even to this day! I can still remember in detail, what it was like to be that helpless and it's been hard for me to type this.

Authors who write about bullying often have the victim have their 'circle of friends' still. But the reality is; when you're the target, so is everyone who tries to get close to you. For years, I had to sit alone, because having a conversation with someone my age got them treated the same way I was. I dealt with constant depression and thoughts of suicide. I am still terrified of interacting with groups of people I don't know. EG I've been going to the same church for a year and only a few people know who I am there, because I can barely bring myself to talk to others. Even years after it's over, I am struggling with the fall out of years of constant bullying, and so deeply afraid of my any form of failure or embarrassment that I can't even bring myself to get my life going.

I can fill books with the things that were done to me.

Is rape bad? Yes. does it need better portrays and more care in how we talk about it? Absolutely. Is it some super special form of harm that nothing else even comes close to? I'm not convinced.

If any thing, I think its one of the few types of that family of harm society at large comes close to recognizing for what it is.

I'm a little riled up, and hope that I've been able to convey my points. I wanted to respond to your comment about the effects of our societies sexual norms but I don't think I can ATM.

Just a thought:
Rape, torture, assault, these are discrete, singular acts that one can point to and hold up for discussion, condemnation, etc.

Bullying, it's not so easily picked out. I mean, it gets egregious, and what happened to Nivarion was absolutely wrong, as was the response of everyone who should have helped him. I'd have taken one step up (so to speak) and declared that incident an assault. Anyway, deepest condolences for what happened to you, Nivarion.

But most of what we see as bullying in retrospect isn't so easy to see at the time.

I poked and teased and was chased by a girl all through 3rd grade. I wouldn't leave her friends alone. At the end of that school year, her dad was transferred (Air Force brats, both of us). She kissed me, gave me a note that she really liked me, and to this day, I wonder what happened to Anita. Just a couple of small tweaks, though, and horseplay becomes bullying. And it's not always easy to see at the time.

We all want to confront bullying, I'm sure. It's just not as clear-cut as rape, assault, torture.

Captcha said:

It's up to the STATE to prove the accused is guilty. The accused is not the prosecution.

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No, the accused is not the prosecution. It is still up to the accuser to prove that she's telling the truth. The accused is innocent, always innocent, until the accuser proves she's telling the truth. The state merely represents the accuser, but the state cannot and does not prove anything. The accuser's evidence and story tell the tale.

If you accuse anyone of anything, that person remains innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and if you don't do it this way, you can, and will, land in the middle of a civil suit, and you'll lose.

Nivarion said:

The phrase oppression Olympics strikes me as wrong. But going on-

I'm not going to deny that rape is a serious crime. I'd put it on par with kidnapping and torture. All three of those crimes take control over the individuals body away from them, and that is a horrific position for a human being to be in. The PTSD is going to be immense after any of those situations.
When I read books where severe bullying is part the plot, I can rarely get through them. The way the bullying is carried out, the way it affects it's victim and the way people respond to it, is just so god damned flat. I don't often swear, but really, its just fucking shit.

An example of how shitastic it can be in real life; When I was in the first grade, (I was about 3 foot and fifty pounds then, I was freakishly tiny for my age.) I was constantly bullied by some boys who were in the seventh grade and went to my combined school. One day, these boys grabbed me and tied me to a stop sign. Once I couldn't move anymore, they began to rip my hair out with duct tape. They were at it for probably twenty or thirty minutes with traffic passing by before finally my aunt drove past and saw it and stopped the attack. The police told us that it "Was just boys being boys" And the god damn fuck off of a principal at my school asked me if I had "tried being friends with my bullies." It still enrages me even to this day! I can still remember in detail, what it was like to be that helpless and it's been hard for me to type this.

Authors who write about bullying often have the victim have their 'circle of friends' still. But the reality is; when you're the target, so is everyone who tries to get close to you. For years, I had to sit alone, because having a conversation with someone my age got them treated the same way I was. I dealt with constant depression and thoughts of suicide. I am still terrified of interacting with groups of people I don't know. EG I've been going to the same church for a year and only a few people know who I am there, because I can barely bring myself to talk to others. Even years after it's over, I am struggling with the fall out of years of constant bullying, and so deeply afraid of my any form of failure or embarrassment that I can't even bring myself to get my life going.

I can fill books with the things that were done to me.

Is rape bad? Yes. does it need better portrays and more care in how we talk about it? Absolutely. Is it some super special form of harm that nothing else even comes close to? I'm not convinced.

If any thing, I think its one of the few types of that family of harm society at large comes close to recognizing for what it is.

I'm a little riled up, and hope that I've been able to convey my points. I wanted to respond to your comment about the effects of our societies sexual norms but I don't think I can ATM.

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My God, but that was a beautiful post!

Not beautiful in content — the pain rang through — but beautiful in honesty. Succinct and clear.

Thank you for sharing a bit of you with the rest of us.

Medea said:

I think we are saturated with stories that use rape plots irresponsibly, in a social climate that’s very unsympathetic to rape victims and ignorant about sexual violence, consent, violations of autonomy, and dehumanization. So yes, I am extremely wary of rape in stories.

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This is my point, really. And sorry if the term oppression Olympics up thread was inappropriate. I didn't mean to dismiss anyone's experiences. My point is that whenever rape comes up, people start recounting other traumatic experiences that leave scars too, and their point (I think) is that it's extremely offensive and belittling to victims of other violent crimes to insinuate that there's anything special about rape that requires writers to consider it carefully as a plot device, (and there's no point in cautioning writers to handle it carefully if they decide to use it, since every other bad thing is usually mishandled by writers too).

The message that comes out is, "Could we please stop talking/worrying about the overuse of rape as a plot device and talk about bullying or street assault or murder as triggery and overdone things in novels instead?"

So one question I have is, do victims of bullying think that writers in general do a horrific job of representing bullying and its victims, maybe even portraying bullying as a simple rite of passage, or sympathetic, or as something that the victims bring on themselves? And is it so overdone as a plot device that we find ourselves tensing up when we read certain kinds of stories, wondering when (not if) a character will be subjected to aggravated and protracted bullying? I can't answer that question, but if the answer is yes, then I think it certainly warrants discussion threads in its own right.

Jamesaritchie said:

No, the accused is not the prosecution. It is still up to the accuser to prove that she's telling the truth. The accused is innocent, always innocent, until the accuser proves she's telling the truth. The state merely represents the accuser, but the state cannot and does not prove anything. The accuser's evidence and story tell the tale.

If you accuse anyone of anything, that person remains innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and if you don't do it this way, you can, and will, land in the middle of a civil suit, and you'll lose.

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James, you remind me of a defense attorney who, in repeatedly referring to "alleged" victims, said the following amazing statement: "Until there's a conviction, there's no real victim, because the accused is innocent until then." Which sounded like he truly believed if we just stopped convicting people of rape, there'd be no crime.

But I disagree with your main point. The accuser does not have to "prove she's telling the truth," any more than the deceased in a murder trial must prove he's dead by another's hand. The prosecution is required to prove, by weight of evidence, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser could be as weak as water, might even recant her tale, but if the other evidence (forensics, eye-witness, circumstantial, admissions) is convincing, the accused will be found guilty.

People are normally not prosecuted or sued for accusing other people of crimes, even if the accused is found "not guilty," because the law also recognizes that doesn't mean "proven innocent." It just means there wasn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It goes against public policy to make victims of crimes hesitate to come forward, because of fear of persecution if no conviction results. One could be sued for slander or libel, but then it would be the responsibility of the person originally accused to prove that the accusation was obviously a false one made out of malice.

Not guilty /= innocent in the eyes of the law.